Why don't non-chinese companies use ceramic bearings/detents?

Comeuppance

Comeuppance

Fixed Blade EDC Emisssary
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
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Spyderco, Zero Tolerance / Kershaw, Buck, Boker, CRKT, Steel Will, etc - they all make flippers, so why do none of them implement ceramic bearings? For that matter, why not MRBS ceramic bearings? These are things you can get in premium chinese-made knives from WE, Reate, Kizer, and etc, and even inexpensive chinese-made knives by Bestech, Artisan Cutlery, Stedemon ZKC and others, but that just doesn't seem to have caught on with the major players outside of the region.

I'm just sayin' - a ZT with a ceramic MRBS and detent ball would be killer.
 
Comeuppance said:
Spyderco, Zero Tolerance / Kershaw, Buck, Boker, CRKT, Steel Will, etc - they all make flippers, so why do none of them implement ceramic bearings? For that matter, why not MRBS ceramic bearings? These are things you can get in premium chinese-made knives from WE, Reate, Kizer, and etc, and even inexpensive chinese-made knives by Bestech, Artisan Cutlery, Stedemon ZKC and others, but that just doesn't seem to have caught on with the major players outside of the region.

I'm just sayin' - a ZT with a ceramic MRBS and detent ball would be killer.
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Idk, why did Spyderco and BM standardize on s30v when s35vn seems to be the Chinese standard. I know labour costs are lower in China but how expensive can ceramic BBs be vs steel ones.

The American companies would probably charge an extra $150 for ceramic bearings.
 
Lapedog said:
Idk, why did Spyderco and BM standardize on s30v when s35vn seems to be the Chinese standard. I know labour costs are lower in China but how expensive can ceramic BBs be vs steel ones.

The American companies would probably charge an extra $150 for ceramic bearings.
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I'm still confused every time I see Spyderco and Benchmade roll out another ~$150 S30V folder. My understanding (and practical experience) is that S35VN is an objectively superior steel. Spyderco's longest-ever "sprint run" seems to be the S35VN paramilitary (how many years has it been now?). But, that's a whole different discussion.

I feel like ZT will probably be the first US company to roll out ceramic bearings, and probably on a limited run for their first implementation. Maybe a Sinkevich collab (or something similar) where the original model of the knife is renowned for having very smooth action.
 
What would be the advantage of ceramic bearings other than it sounds fascinating? The ZT’s I have now fire open pretty fast with conventional steel bearing and they close pretty good too. Maybe, companies like ZT don’t see a need to switch to different bearings because the cost difference, production changes and finding dependable vendors isn’t as easy as it sounds.
The last time I read about the ceramic specialty industry, the cost of producing ceramics was still 3 times higher than steel. That was mostly in the auto industry. I think if/when the prices are closer together, ceramic will take over and ceramic bearings will be the norm.It truly is amazing stuff.
BTW, I work at a chemical plant that produces alumina powder that goes into ceramics, our engineers keep up with that end of production and like to share the results.
 
Ajack60 said:
What would be the advantage of ceramic bearings other than it sounds fascinating? The ZT’s I have now fire open pretty fast with conventional steel bearing and they close pretty good too. Maybe, companies like ZT don’t see a need to switch to different bearings because the cost difference, production changes and finding dependable vendors isn’t as easy as it sounds.
The last time I read about the ceramic specialty industry, the cost of producing ceramics was still 3 times higher than steel. That was mostly in the auto industry. I think if/when the prices are closer together, ceramic will take over and ceramic bearings will be the norm.It truly is amazing stuff.
BTW, I work at a chemical plant that produces alumina powder that goes into ceramics, our engineers keep up with that end of production and like to share the results.
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Honestly for the bearings I find the ceramics less important, but for the detent I think it is very important and has many advantages over a steel bb.

Ceramic detent won’t flatten out and runs smother against the side of the tang.
 
Lapedog said:
Honestly for the bearings I find the ceramics less important, but for the detent I think it is very important and has many advantages over a steel bb.

Ceramic detent won’t flatten out and runs smother against the side of the tang.
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A ceramic detent will still wear, but at a fraction the rate of a steel one. Over the entire lifetime of the blade, the detent hole or blade itself will likely wear out before the detent ball runs flat like steel will. I've work a very small flat spot in a ceramic detent ball already from religious flipping, but nothing close to enough to impact the action aside from the smallest decrease of detent strength (if I didn't handle another knife with a similar strength detent in comparison without the same wear, I would have never noticed the difference). Ceramic detents do have easily more than 5x the life, though. Wish more knives that were so fun to flip used them to future proof them.
 
I'm pretty sure Brous uses ceramic detents on most of if not on all his folding knives. And I agree with Lapedog, ceramic detents are more important than ceramic bearings. Steel bearings are plenty smooth and should last the life of the knife.
 
Because merica

Ceramic is good for corrosion protection. But there has to be hardened steel races that can still rust.

Could be they don't want to order bearings from China for there usa knives?
 
A ZT/Sinkevich collaboration with ceramic MRBS would seem the most likely as he came up with MRBS
 
Maybe the American companies have come to the conclusion that the cost to benefit ratio is lacking? Chinese companies have the advantage with much lower labour costs, so for them, perhaps its worth it to use ceramic bearings as kind of a gimmick to market to the hard core flipper fans? And hey, added bonus if it becomes all the rage, in that it forces their competition in America to up their costs by providing what everyone now must have.
 
my question is why would you want any of that? A Hinderer or Case Trapperlock can be just as smooth. Bearings lower contact patch area hugely in stress applied to surface area. Hard bearings grind grooves in blades, handles, or races. On a latest fad, how do you see the replacement parts supply after you have moved on to asking same question about magnetic levitation blades next year?
 
I've ridden bicycles with ceramic bearings and my longboard has ceramic bearings while they are better I don't think they're better enough to justify the cost though. Knives don't have the range of motion nor the potential heat build up that would make using ceramic beneficial. All IMHO of course.
 
Comeuppance said:
Spyderco, Zero Tolerance / Kershaw, Buck, Boker, CRKT, Steel Will, etc - they all make flippers, so why do none of them implement ceramic bearings? For that matter, why not MRBS ceramic bearings? These are things you can get in premium chinese-made knives from WE, Reate, Kizer, and etc, and even inexpensive chinese-made knives by Bestech, Artisan Cutlery, Stedemon ZKC and others, but that just doesn't seem to have caught on with the major players outside of the region.

I'm just sayin' - a ZT with a ceramic MRBS and detent ball would be killer.
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Is it that important? I don't own any knives with that stuff but they seem to work just fine.
 
Ceramic bearings have a shorter break in period because they wear into the metal faster than stainless. They also are more round and stay that way. They often have better tolerance too. They don't corrode. The detent will often have less friction over steel.

There is very little reason not to have them.

People think bearings in the pivot help action but that's just ignorance. Swapping to either doesn't change action at all. The detent is the key to the action most of the time. Though it's design as a whole is just as important. But action wise pivot bearings don't mean much. As mentioned above is reasons to use them. Grimsmo just switched to ceramic pivot bearings due to corrosion issues.

They are not without cons. But generally they are not issues for most.
 
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Mo2 said:
Ceramic bearings have a shorter break in period because they wear into the metal faster than stainless. They also are more round and stay that way. They often have better tolerance too. They don't corrode. The detent will often have less friction over steel.

There is very little reason not to have them.

People think bearings in the pivot help action but that's just ignorance. Swapping to either doesn't change action at all. The detent is the key to the action most of the time. Though it's design as a whole is just as important. But action wise pivot bearings don't mean much. As mentioned above is reasons to use them. Grimsmo just switched to ceramic pivot bearings due to corrosion issues.

They are not without cons. But generally they are not issues for most.
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Not having ceramic whatever has not stopped my knives from functioning. The reasons you list aren't a problem for me. Why do I need to fix something that isn't broken, likely at a cost increase?
 
Ceramic bearings also don't happen to like shock or impact. Not ideal in a knife.

While quality ceramic bearings will be $50-$75 a pair there are cheap ones so either these companies are running cheap ones or they're shaving that cost out of the blade steel or some other part of the knife.

And last running them with lube means they have the same rolling resistance as steel. You don't need to run lube since they won't rust but when you do that they feel gritty/notchy.

But if you are having a war of words over who's knife brand has more features other than quality blade steel they are a talking point.
 
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