Why don't non-chinese companies use ceramic bearings/detents?

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Does a knife NEED ceramic bearings? No. Does it NEED any bearings? No. Does it even need washers? My hogue says no. Do we NEED supersteels? For most of us, again probably no. So why do we like this stuff? Cuz we're knife dorks, that's why. Thinking about the what makes a knife cool thread, smooth action is another factor in that. Could I get all my tasks done with a blade that takes a rough and gritty trip to opening? Of course. But smooth is better. Things that are negligable to some are a big deal to others. You got your steel junkies, tacticool ninjas, hipster plain jane simple framelocks folks, edge geometry people, etc.

That being said, I find a well made knife can be pretty dang smooth without bearings at all. Also, I worry about debris getting caught in bearrings, though admittedly, this has never been an issue on my knives with bearings. That said, my knives with bearings ARE smoothER. But as a knife fanatic, i keep my knives without them plenty smooth. I dont need American knives to start using bearings though. To me, the way different companies and even countries have different "perks" to their knives is what makes collecting fun. Otherwise, nobody would ever need anything other than a buck 110 and a slippy.

 

[Mecha]

Does a knife NEED ceramic bearings? No. Does it NEED any bearings? No. Does it even need washers? My hogue says no. Do we NEED supersteels? For most of us, again probably no. [...snip...] Otherwise, nobody would ever need anything other than a buck 110 and a slippy.

A buck 110 and a slippy aaaand...?

 

[craytab]

Does a knife NEED ceramic bearings? No. Does it NEED any bearings? No. Does it even need washers? My hogue says no. Do we NEED supersteels? For most of us, again probably no. So why do we like this stuff? Cuz we're knife dorks, that's why. Thinking about the what makes a knife cool thread, smooth action is another factor in that. Could I get all my tasks done with a blade that takes a rough and gritty trip to opening? Of course. But smooth is better. Things that are negligable to some are a big deal to others. You got your steel junkies, tacticool ninjas, hipster plain jane simple framelocks folks, edge geometry people, etc.

That being said, I find a well made knife can be pretty dang smooth without bearings at all. Also, I worry about debris getting caught in bearrings, though admittedly, this has never been an issue on my knives with bearings. That said, my knives with bearings ARE smoothER. But as a knife fanatic, i keep my knives without them plenty smooth. I dont need American knives to start using bearings though. To me, the way different companies and even countries have different "perks" to their knives is what makes collecting fun. Otherwise, nobody would ever need anything other than a buck 110 and a slippy.

I agree for the most part. That said, I need a blade to hold an edge, especially in the kitchen. "Super steels" make my life much better in that respect. Ceramic bearings do not.

 

[jill jackson]

People got by for decades with the same old knives. They didn't buy another often until the one they owned wore out. The result of this was many of the old companies went out of business when things begin to change, unless they changed too. The knife business keeps on evolving and the key now is giving the customer what they want. Who knows what sort of knives will be available in the future. It definitely is driven by the end customer.

 

[Mo2]

I agree for the most part. That said, I need a blade to hold an edge, especially in the kitchen. "Super steels" make my life much better in that respect. Ceramic bearings do not.

I prefer ceramic or washers if I'm using a folder in the kitchen. Because I'm always washing them. Mostly chef knives though.while grease and oil are helpful they don't last as long in the kitchen before having to clean them out and re apply.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

I agree for the most part. That said, I need a blade to hold an edge, especially in the kitchen. "Super steels" make my life much better in that respect. Ceramic bearings do not.

I must admit, none of my kitchen knives have bearings.

I have also found kitchen use to be one of the easiest for retaining an edge. Cutting boards and soft materials to cut allows my knives to keep a great edge for a while. Softer steels also sharpen up real quick with a few swipes on my sharpmaker. I Use a deba for bones, and it's so easy to sharpen with its chisel grind.

But anyway, I dont need supersteels in the kitchen at all. But you like them, so get em. Some people may not even be able to tell one steel from another. Smooth action matters to op. Some people may not notice the difference the bearings make. OP does.

 

[Mecha]

I must admit, none of my kitchen knives have bearings.

I have also found kitchen use to be one of the easiest for retaining an edge. Cutting boards and soft materials to cut allows my knives to keep a great edge for a while. Softer steels also sharpen up real quick with a few swipes on my sharpmaker. I Use a deba for bones, and it's so easy to sharpen with its chisel grind.

But anyway, I dont need supersteels in the kitchen at all. But you like them, so get em. Some people may not even be able to tell one steel from another. Smooth action matters to op. Some people may not notice the difference the bearings make. OP does.

A buck 110 and a slippy aaaand...?

 

[craytab]

I must admit, none of my kitchen knives have bearings.

I have also found kitchen use to be one of the easiest for retaining an edge. Cutting boards and soft materials to cut allows my knives to keep a great edge for a while. Softer steels also sharpen up real quick with a few swipes on my sharpmaker. I Use a deba for bones, and it's so easy to sharpen with its chisel grind.

But anyway, I dont need supersteels in the kitchen at all. But you like them, so get em. Some people may not even be able to tell one steel from another. Smooth action matters to op. Some people may not notice the difference the bearings make. OP does.

My s35vn North Arms paring knife holds an edge for ever. While it my not be considered in a super steel, it is still very much worth it for me to have a razor sharp knife during extended and laborious kitchen tasks. I'd rather not stop and sharpen.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

My s35vn North Arms paring knife holds an edge for ever. While it my not be considered in a super steel, it is still very much worth it for me to have a razor sharp knife during extended and laborious kitchen tasks. I'd rather not stop and sharpen.

I've never had to stop and sharpen my kitchen knives. People are knife nerding out here and discussing bearings. You say you like knife nerd stuff, and then rain on the bearing parade. It's just like if someone in a super steel comparison thread just kept saying "but you dont need it. 420hc is good enough". Let the people talk about bearings. Jeez.

 

[sharp_edge]

My s35vn North Arms paring knife holds an edge for ever. While it my not be considered in a super steel, it is still very much worth it for me to have a razor sharp knife during extended and laborious kitchen tasks. I'd rather not stop and sharpen.

Absolutely. Good steel and not so good steel in kitchen knives make a major difference. People saying otherwise probably do not cook often if ever cook at all.

 

[craytab]

I've never had to stop and sharpen my kitchen knives. People are knife nerding out here and discussing bearings. You say you like knife nerd stuff, and then rain on the bearing parade. It's just like if someone in a super steel comparison thread just kept saying "but you dont need it. 420hc is good enough". Let the people talk about bearings. Jeez.

Why are you telling others not to discuss the topic? Jeez....

Where did I rain on the bearing parade? Bearings aren't even the topic.

With good steel and good geometry I don't stop to sharpen my knives in the kitchen. That is my point. Then again, I have high standards of sharpness in the kitchen. Good steel is important for that.

Ceramic bearings or detent on a folding knife simply aren't that important in the function of a folding knife to me.

I think the reasons ceramic parts aren't used in knives from some manufacturers has been explained. They aren't needed and they add to expense, inflated by marketing or otherwise.

If someone likes buying the ceramic hype, I have no issue with that. Go for it. Buy what you like. I certainly do. But when the question comes up, I don't mind sharing my opinion on why ceramic stuff doesn't impact my purchasing decisions. Other things are far more important to me.

 

[craytab]

Absolutely. Good steel and not so good steel in kitchen knives make a major difference. People saying otherwise probably do not cook often if ever cook at all.

Yes indeed.

 

[danbot]

Why are you telling others not to discuss the topic? Jeez....

Where did I rain on the bearing parade? Bearings aren't even the topic.

With good steel and good geometry I don't stop to sharpen my knives in the kitchen. That is my point. Then again, I have high standards of sharpness in the kitchen. Good steel is important for that.

Ceramic bearings or detent on a folding knife simply aren't that important in the function of a folding knife to me.

I think the reasons ceramic parts aren't used in knives from some manufacturers has been explained. They aren't needed and they add to expense, inflated by marketing or otherwise.

If someone likes buying the ceramic hype, I have no issue with that. Go for it. Buy what you like. I certainly do. But when the question comes up, I don't mind sharing my opinion on why ceramic stuff doesn't impact my purchasing decisions. Other things are far more important to me.

I've got a feeling that within the next few years, we're all gonna be arguing about what companies are using the best ceramic bearings.

 

[Officer's Match]

It depends on the knife for me. If we are talking RIL (framelock) AND the detent ball is in a blind hole like a Sebenza (doesn't go all the way thru the lockbar), then I INSIST it be ceramic. I've had several steel detent bearings wear too flat to obtain smooth pivot action (on both linerlocks and framelocks), and have fortunately been able to press them out by accessing them thru the backside with a tiny punch. Rotate the flat inside and presto it's fixed. On a blind hole detent, I'd be screwed if a steel bearing wore too flat.

For pivots that utilize bearings, I prefer plastic caged ceramic bearings simply for the issue of corrosion.

 

[Yonose]

I'm still confused every time I see Spyderco and Benchmade roll out another ~$150 S30V folder. My understanding (and practical experience) is that S35VN is an objectively superior steel. Spyderco's longest-ever "sprint run" seems to be the S35VN paramilitary (how many years has it been now?). But, that's a whole different discussion.

I feel like ZT will probably be the first US company to roll out ceramic bearings, and probably on a limited run for their first implementation. Maybe a Sinkevich collab (or something similar) where the original model of the knife is renowned for having very smooth action.

It’s funny that the main difference between s30v and s35vn is supposed to be ease of manufacture for the latter steel—it’s less wear and tear on the equipment—and yet Spyderco and Benchmade have failed to make the switch. I can’t imagine that there is that much of a price difference between the steels.

 

[Fanglekai]

I'm still confused every time I see Spyderco and Benchmade roll out another ~$150 S30V folder. My understanding (and practical experience) is that S35VN is an objectively superior steel. Spyderco's longest-ever "sprint run" seems to be the S35VN paramilitary (how many years has it been now?). But, that's a whole different discussion.

I feel like ZT will probably be the first US company to roll out ceramic bearings, and probably on a limited run for their first implementation. Maybe a Sinkevich collab (or something similar) where the original model of the knife is renowned for having very smooth action.

S35VN is EASIER to machine and thus cheaper than S30V since their raw prices are nearly even. S35VN is not objectively superior.

It's time to let this myth die.

 

[Fanglekai]

It’s funny that the main difference between s30v and s35vn is supposed to be ease of manufacture for the latter steel—it’s less wear and tear on the equipment—and yet Spyderco and Benchmade have failed to make the switch. I can’t imagine that there is that much of a price difference between the steels.

Because they probably have huge stockpiles. The raw price is very similar when I've looked it up.

 

[dkb45]

This is getting so heated for no reason. Ceramic bearings versus steel are objectively better, they have a lower friction coefficient and are impervious to corrosion. They are slightly more expensive, though, and some people aren't willing to take the meager action increase to increase cost. There's no argument that should be had there.

Ceramic detent balls are objectively better than steel, they have an exponentially longer life and will reduce future repair costs, along with being virtually indistinguishable in price difference (it should break down to be less than a dollar more per knife, that's basically in margin of error). There should not be an argument over settled science.

Bearings vs washers is an actual discussion because both have their own sets of pros and cons. With perfect tolerances there should be no action difference, but there is almost no such thing as 100% perfect QC, there is always tolerance variance, which is where the washer versus bearing discussion gets interesting because bearings technically have less margin of error decreasing manufacturing costs, but are more expensive increasing costs. Washer are cheaper but require tigher tolerances (unless the company doesn't give a crap, then washers are preferred for expense). Bad washers are worse than bad bearings, but both objectively suck.

There is no reason discussion has to get so heated. We're supposed to be friends here, this is Bladeforums not fight club. We're all knife nerds here.

 

[danbot]

There is no reason discussion has to get so heated. We're supposed to be friends here, this is Bladeforums not fight club. We're all knife nerds here.

Thems fightin' words!

 

[dkb45]

Thems fightin' words!

There's always the contrarian!