Why don't non-chinese companies use ceramic bearings/detents?

[kniferbro]

Ceramic detent balls on more knives would be cool, but ceramic pivot bearings? Nah. Any and every bearing knife I've handled has been more than free enough at the pivot with the lock bar held off/no contact. The detent ball and pressure is really the factor here.

Edit: Didn't even think about corrosion... CERAMIC ALL THE BEARINGS.

 

[22-rimfire]

My suggestion is that you just go ahead and buy those Chinese knives if ceramic bearings are important to you. They aren't to me.

 

[danbot]

Also, ceramic bearings were developed for high rpm (10,000+) and high temperature industrial applications. Hardly needed for knife or bicycle use. Sure you can use them, but is the added cost really worth it? (Assuming high grade bearings are used).

Ideally, the detent ball should be very close in hardness to the steel that it rides on. If the ball cannot freely roll in its seat, then a ceramic ball is going to wear the blade steel and the detent will get weaker.

As far as corrosion goes...maintenance should help in preventing that with stainless steel bearings.

 

[dkb45]

Ceramic bearings have a shorter break in period because they wear into the metal faster than stainless. They also are more round and stay that way. They often have better tolerance too. They don't corrode. The detent will often have less friction over steel.

There is very little reason not to have them.

People think bearings in the pivot help action but that's just ignorance. Swapping to either doesn't change action at all. The detent is the key to the action most of the time. Though it's design as a whole is just as important. But action wise pivot bearings don't mean much. As mentioned above is reasons to use them. Grimsmo just switched to ceramic pivot bearings due to corrosion issues.

They are not without cons. But generally they are not issues for most.

That's not quite true. Ceramic has a lower friction coefficient than steel, and is smoother (albeit marginally), the only downsides are that they are more expensive and can shatter (but shattering a bearing is almost impossible without seriously damaging the knife). Detent is more important than bearing type, though.

Ceramic bearings also don't happen to like shock or impact. Not ideal in a knife.

While quality ceramic bearings will be $50-$75 a pair there are cheap ones so either these companies are running cheap ones or they're shaving that cost out of the blade steel or some other part of the knife.

And last running them with lube means they have the same rolling resistance as steel. You don't need to run lube since they won't rust but when you do that they feel gritty/notchy.

But if you are having a war of words over who's knife brand has more features other than quality blade steel they are a talking point.

Bearings for knives aren't nearly that expensive, it would mean that Bestech and Artisan Cutlery would be losing money on every single budget knife they make. Ceramic is more expensive, but buying a set from a supplier of knife parts (which is much more expensive than the parts for manufacturers) looks to be at most $5 for a set, versus $2-3 for steel bearings. Ceramic bearings are also much stronger than you give them credit for, unless they are impacted by something very hard they are extremely resilient when rounded, you can even buy ceramic hammers which obviously face far more impact force than a knife bearing could. lube also doesn't make ceramic and steel bearings have the same friction coefficient, all it does is reduce friction, so lubed ceramic will still have less friction than lubed steel.

 

[Danke42]

That's not quite true. Ceramic has a lower friction coefficient than steel, and is smoother (albeit marginally), the only downsides are that they are more expensive and can shatter (but shattering a bearing is almost impossible without seriously damaging the knife). Detent is more important than bearing type, though.

Bearings for knives aren't nearly that expensive, it would mean that Bestech and Artisan Cutlery would be losing money on every single budget knife they make. Ceramic is more expensive, but buying a set from a supplier of knife parts (which is much more expensive than the parts for manufacturers) looks to be at most $5 for a set, versus $2-3 for steel bearings. Ceramic bearings are also much stronger than you give them credit for, unless they are impacted by something very hard they are extremely resilient when rounded, you can even buy ceramic hammers which obviously face far more impact force than a knife bearing could. lube also doesn't make ceramic and steel bearings have the same friction coefficient, all it does is reduce friction, so lubed ceramic will still have less friction than lubed steel.

Just using real world comparisons of ceramic vs. steel instead of data sheets. That's the nice thing about them being so available as comparison doens't need to be a theoretical one using talking points from a sales pamphlet.

They are more expensive. They don't roll as smoothly dry. They are more shock sensitive, and the repeated shocks from flicking open a flipper or just dropping the knife when closed would be what I would worry about vs. destroying them with one mighty blow.

 

[Mo2]

How many times has anyone seen a cracked ceramic bearing? I mean heck crk uses a ceramic ball for the lockbar.

Honestly I don't think it really matter which ones you guys want. They both do fine.

There is little reason to choose one over the other. If you want a more premium knife ceramic is generally the way to go. But there are plenty of premium knives without that speak for themselves.

 

[danbot]

How many times has anyone seen a cracked ceramic bearing? I mean heck crk uses a ceramic ball for the lockbar.

Honestly I think it doesn't really matter which ones you guys want. They both do fine.

There is little reason to choose one over the other. If you want a more premium knife ceramic is generally the way to go.

So, you are saying that premium knives will use ceramic, but the ceramic doesn't make them premium knives?

 

[Mo2]

So, you are saying that premium knives will use ceramic, but the ceramic doesn't make them premium knives?

I edited before u replied. Re read

Also I used the word generally. Which doesn't mean what you assumed.

 

[Comeuppance]

Not having ceramic whatever has not stopped my knives from functioning. The reasons you list aren't a problem for me. Why do I need to fix something that isn't broken, likely at a cost increase?

It's not a matter of functioning vs not functioning. That argument is easy to strawman out to extremes for nearly all features - blade steels, handle materials, etc - but ceramic bearings and detent balls offer superior pivot action, as well as corrosion prevention. While X knife may -function- just fine with 420HC steel and nylon washers, a knife with S35vn and ceramic bearings will almost certainly be more pleasant to operate.

 

[craytab]

It's not a matter of functioning vs not functioning. That argument is easy to strawman out to extremes for nearly all features - blade steels, handle materials, etc - but ceramic bearings and detent balls offer superior pivot action, as well as corrosion prevention. While X knife may -function- just fine with 420HC steel and nylon washers, a knife with S35vn and ceramic bearings will almost certainly be more pleasant to operate.

I guess I don't see it then. I'm not trying to straw man. I'm talking about practical use. I see no benefit from ceramic bearings vs steel or even vs well done washers. Bearings are cool. That's it. I like them on the knives I own that have them but the are far from a need and even further from a need in upgrade.

I don't get the argument to argue against real improvements. S35vn is real improvement over 420hc. Comparing ceramic vs nylon washers? Talk about a strawman.

Ceramic vs steel bearings or detent? For the same price, I'd be fine with. Is it needed? Not even close.

 

[Comeuppance]

I guess I don't see it then. I'm not trying to straw man. I'm talking about practical use. I see no benefit from ceramic bearings vs steel or even vs well done washers. Bearings are cool. That's it. I like them on the knives I own that have them but the are far from a need and even further from a need in upgrade.

I don't get the argument to argue against real improvements. S35vn is real improvement over 420hc. Comparing ceramic vs nylon washers? Talk about a strawman.

Ceramic vs steel bearings or detent? For the same price, I'd be fine with. Is it needed? Not even close.

That particular argument of functioning vs non-functioning isn't really relevant to the topic at hand. I don't think anyone here is asserting that ceramic bearings or bearings in general are a functional necessity.

You're approaching this from a "do I need it" standpoint, which was my earlier point re: 420HC and nylon washers. Few people -need- a knife with better materials than that, but they would often enjoy the knife significantly more were it to have them.

My overall point here is that material and feature standards are increasing across the board, and that there seems to be an easy option to add a competitive edge. I highly doubt ceramic detents or pivots would add significantly to the cost of a manufactured knife - maybe $5 in street price - but it would help close the gap in pivot action and smoothness between, say, a ZT and a Reate. ZT picks up a few more sales than they would otherwise, consumers get a superior product, everyone wins.

 

[madcap_magician]

I think the reason the Chinese knives are using ceramic and S35VN might have something to do with the fact that they're all new kids on the block, so they used whatever the market was into when they jumped in. That's why virtually all of the Chinese folders are titanium framelocks, I think. Also explains the preference for S35VN over S30V for flagship models.

 

[sharp_edge]

I think the reason the Chinese knives are using ceramic and S35VN might have something to do with the fact that they're all new kids on the block, so they used whatever the market was into when they jumped in. That's why virtually all of the Chinese folders are titanium framelocks, I think. Also explains the preference for S35VN over S30V for flagship models.

I tend to agree with you on the part that Chinese manufacturers use s35vn rather than s30v as the standard. But that does not explain why American manufacturers still hold s30v as the standard. Or maybe they (hello Benchmade and Spyderco) have too much s30v in stock?

 

[danbot]

That particular argument of functioning vs non-functioning isn't really relevant to the topic at hand. I don't think anyone here is asserting that ceramic bearings or bearings in general are a functional necessity.

You're approaching this from a "do I need it" standpoint, which was my earlier point re: 420HC and nylon washers. Few people -need- a knife with better materials than that, but they would often enjoy the knife significantly more were it to have them.

My overall point here is that material and feature standards are increasing across the board, and that there seems to be an easy option to add a competitive edge. I highly doubt ceramic detents or pivots would add significantly to the cost of a manufactured knife - maybe $5 in street price - but it would help close the gap in pivot action and smoothness between, say, a ZT and a Reate. ZT picks up a few more sales than they would otherwise, consumers get a superior product, everyone wins.

But is it really that much better to call it superior?
I don't really see any reason not to use ceramic if it doesn't significantly add to cost, but I also don't really see a compelling reason for it. I have never tried one, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem that people think it makes a huge difference. I mean, stainless steel bearings need to be lubricated to maintain their best corrosion resistance and ceramic bearings need to be lubed to maintain smooth operation.

 

[Mo2]

But is it really that much better to call it superior?
I don't really see any reason not to use ceramic if it doesn't significantly add to cost, but I also don't really see a compelling reason for it. I have never tried one, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem that people think it makes a huge difference. I mean, stainless steel bearings need to be lubricated to maintain their best corrosion resistance and ceramic bearings need to be lubed to maintain smooth operation.

I don't need to lube either types of bearings to be smooth. It's true that they both sound different without lube. But in no way is a ceramic bearing pivot not smooth. That's funny.

 

[Comeuppance]

But is it really that much better to call it superior?
I don't really see any reason not to use ceramic if it doesn't significantly add to cost, but I also don't really see a compelling reason for it. I have never tried one, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem that people think it makes a huge difference. I mean, stainless steel bearings need to be lubricated to maintain their best corrosion resistance and ceramic bearings need to be lubed to maintain smooth operation.

My position of ceramic bearings and detent balls being superior is 100% based on my own anecdotal experience, but it has been consistent and noticeable. Even the budget knives that I have had with ceramic bearings and detents (Bestech Scimitar, Factor Iconic, Stedemon Shy IV, Stedemon ZKC D-01 and C-05) have all had liquid-smooth pivots after a very brief break-in period, while only a handful of the dozens of steel bearing knives I've owned have ever gotten anywhere close to that.

Again, this has never been an issue of necessity - steel bearing knives will still function just fine, and precise machining can make even nylon or PB washers extremely smooth - but ceramic bearings offer a subjectively better feel and smoothness, and objectively better corrosion resistance.

The only argument for necessity I could come up with is in a very specific case: One could potentially make a 100% rust-proof bearing flipper using ceramic bearings, LC200N, and G10/Ti.

 

[Comeuppance]

I tend to agree with you on the part that Chinese manufacturers use s35vn rather than s30v as the standard. But that does not explain why American manufacturers still hold s30v as the standard. Or maybe they (hello Benchmade and Spyderco) have too much s30v in stock?

That, and many of their standard models started with S30V and people like consistency with standby models. I imagine that they likely have standing and recurring orders for the steel at such quantities and regularity that the material cost is much lower for them, so it represents a non-trivial savings to use more of the same.

 

[sXePhenomenal]

You can get ceramic balls for the KVT or a whole different disc. Pretty sure REK can put ceramic detent balls in for you.

Just throwing those out there if someone wants them but doesn’t know you can get them.

I’d say the companies don’t use them bc the current market doesn’t demand it.

 

[danbot]

I don't need to lube either types of bearings to be smooth. It's true that they both sound different without lube. But in no way is a ceramic bearing pivot not smooth. That's funny.

Well, if they are running on steel races they should be dry lubed at least. If the steel races take on any corrosion, the bearings will start to feel gritty without lube.

 

[danbot]

My position of ceramic bearings and detent balls being superior is 100% based on my own anecdotal experience, but it has been consistent and noticeable. Even the budget knives that I have had with ceramic bearings and detents (Bestech Scimitar, Factor Iconic, Stedemon Shy IV, Stedemon ZKC D-01 and C-05) have all had liquid-smooth pivots after a very brief break-in period, while only a handful of the dozens of steel bearing knives I've owned have ever gotten anywhere close to that.

Again, this has never been an issue of necessity - steel bearing knives will still function just fine, and precise machining can make even nylon or PB washers extremely smooth - but ceramic bearings offer a subjectively better feel and smoothness, and objectively better corrosion resistance.

The only argument for necessity I could come up with is in a very specific case: One could potentially make a 100% rust-proof bearing flipper using ceramic bearings, LC200N, and G10/Ti.

I'll have to try one someday.