Why don't non-chinese companies use ceramic bearings/detents?

[Mo2]

You can get ceramic balls for the KVT or a whole different disc. Pretty sure REK can put ceramic detent balls in for you.

Just throwing those out there if someone wants them but doesn’t know you can get them.

I’d say the companies don’t use them bc the current market doesn’t demand it.

Nick's not the end all be all of anything. But he does have a video showing action between ceramic and steel make no difference for action.

There is a thread on bladeforums that gives the correct parts to use to swap them out. I may have commented that link in the video previously. I'll have to look for it and edit this later.

Well, if they are running on steel races they should be dry lubed at least. If the steel races take on any corrosion, the bearings will start to feel gritty without lube.

Depending on the heat treatment sure absolutely a good idea. Assuming it see's some kind of moisture in its life. Indeed some kind of corrosion protection on any metal surfaces on and in a knife is a really good idea.

 

[craytab]

That particular argument of functioning vs non-functioning isn't really relevant to the topic at hand. I don't think anyone here is asserting that ceramic bearings or bearings in general are a functional necessity.

You're approaching this from a "do I need it" standpoint, which was my earlier point re: 420HC and nylon washers. Few people -need- a knife with better materials than that, but they would often enjoy the knife significantly more were it to have them.

My overall point here is that material and feature standards are increasing across the board, and that there seems to be an easy option to add a competitive edge. I highly doubt ceramic detents or pivots would add significantly to the cost of a manufactured knife - maybe $5 in street price - but it would help close the gap in pivot action and smoothness between, say, a ZT and a Reate. ZT picks up a few more sales than they would otherwise, consumers get a superior product, everyone wins.

Your 420hc and nylon washers is a strawman argument. I need better than that for what I use my knives for. I don't need ceramic bearings vs steel or washers. It will be advertised and priced like I do need them though.

My point remains. Is this an important feature? To a collector, sure. To a user. Nope.

 

[danbot]

Depending on the heat treatment sure absolutely a good idea. Assuming it seems some kind of moisture in its life. Indeed some kind of corrosion protection on any metal surfaces on and in a knife is a really good idea.

Do you know if any knife companies are using full ceramic bearings? More expensive, but that would eliminate the need for any lube at all as I understand it.

 

[Mo2]

Do you know if any knife companies are using full ceramic bearings? More expensive, but that would eliminate the need for any lube at all as I understand it.

Good question. Most bearings use either plastic or brass/copper cages with ceramic. Some may use metal cages, but I'm not sure which ones specifically if any.

The metal bearing races they ride on are usually hardened so they don't wear fast but I've not seen bearing races made of ceramic. At least not yet. Not sure if that would even be idea or how expensive they would be for tight tolerances to make them.

 

[Comeuppance]

Your 420hc and nylon washers is a strawman argument. I need better than that for what I use my knives for. I don't need ceramic bearings vs steel or washers. It will be advertised and priced like I do need them though.

My point remains. Is this an important feature? To a collector, sure. To a user. Nope.

I know it was a strawman argument. I said it was a strawman argument. Your statement was also a strawman argument because you were and continue to be singularly focused on "necessity" which is not the hill I have chosen to die on.

You presented a new point with this post (unless you stated it previously and I missed it) which is a concern about increased cost. Ceramic bearings could be a negligible difference in manufacturing cost, possibly imperceptible from a purely material cost standpoint. As a consumer, I can buy ceramic captive MRBS washers for ~$5. A company with a large order could probably get them for significantly less. Since it takes functionally zero difference in the construction of the knife, and no additional manufacturing or design considerations need to be factored into the cost, the net material price difference is realistically well under $5.

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that a ceramic detent ball would not be nearly as prone to flattening, compared to steel detent balls.

 

[Lapedog]

But is it really that much better to call it superior?
I don't really see any reason not to use ceramic if it doesn't significantly add to cost, but I also don't really see a compelling reason for it. I have never tried one, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem that people think it makes a huge difference. I mean, stainless steel bearings need to be lubricated to maintain their best corrosion resistance and ceramic bearings need to be lubed to maintain smooth operation.

I actually run my kizer feist dry with no lube and it has an extremely smooth action. It has ceramic bearings. I don’t know where the idea that ceramic bearings won’t run smoothly unless lubed comes from.

 

[danbot]

I actually run my kizer feist dry with no lube and it has an extremely smooth action. It has ceramic bearings. I don’t know where the idea that ceramic bearings won’t run smoothly unless lubed comes from.

Mostly from use in bicycles. My friend works as a bike mechanic and they sell some very high end bikes. The serious cyclists pay a lot for ceramic bearings and they complain about them feeling gritty, so he was told to lube them and problem solved.

 

[Mo2]

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that a ceramic detent ball would not be nearly as prone to flattening, compared to steel detent balls

Flat detent is desired over round for guillotine like action. So some makers flatten them. Both kinds.

Mostly from use in bicycles. My friend works as a bike mechanic and they sell some very high end bikes. The serious cyclists pay a lot for ceramic bearings and they complain about them feeling gritty, so he was told to lube them and problem solved.

Alot of times ceramic bearings in bicycles and motor vehicles is a bad idea due to making the steel around them out of round or the bearings cracking due to the stresses involved. Seen it happen on many forums. Though they will reduce friction its just not worth it unless you have coin to toss away in the event of a failure.

You would never see this in a knife unless you were abusing it. And if you had steel bearings they would undoubtedly dent the titanium they were riding on or go out of round themselves.

 

[craytab]

I know it was a strawman argument. I said it was a strawman argument. Your statement was also a strawman argument because you were and continue to be singularly focused on "necessity" which is not the hill I have chosen to die on.

You presented a new point with this post (unless you stated it previously and I missed it) which is a concern about increased cost. Ceramic bearings could be a negligible difference in manufacturing cost, possibly imperceptible from a purely material cost standpoint. As a consumer, I can buy ceramic captive MRBS washers for ~$5. A company with a large order could probably get them for significantly less. Since it takes functionally zero difference in the construction of the knife, and no additional manufacturing or design considerations need to be factored into the cost, the net material price difference is realistically well under $5.

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that a ceramic detent ball would not be nearly as prone to flattening, compared to steel detent balls.

Marketing. That is where the cost will be passed on and inflated. That is my point.

Ceramics aren't necessary. Nor are steel bearings. Can they be fun? Of course. My favorite edc folder has bearings. Love it.

S35vn over 420hc is necessary for what I use a knife for.

This seems like a theoretical argument rather than a discussion of practical need. I love ridiculous knives that don't make much sense (tglb) and I have no problem admitting that. Those who want ceramic everything should consider doing the same.

 

[rpttrsn]

Ceramic bearings also don't happen to like shock or impact. Not ideal in a knife.

Try riding a skateboard and see what kind of shock and impact they take with ceramic bearings. Coming off a hand rail 4 feet in the air and landing on concrete with a body weight of 150 lbs or more. That's impact IMO.
They do have more advantages then disadvantages I would think. My CKF knife opens and closes smoother then other high end knives I own without ceramic bearings. The right detent is more then likely the biggest factor.

 

[James Y]

Spyderco uses a ceramic ball detent in its Caribbean (a made-in-Taiwan Salt) model, because in testing the steel detents were corroding.

Jim

 

[Danke42]

Try riding a skateboard and see what kind of shock and impact they take with ceramic bearings. Coming off a hand rail 4 feet in the air and landing on concrete with a body weight of 150 lbs or more. That's impact IMO.
They do have more advantages then disadvantages I would think. My CKF knife opens and closes smoother then other high end knives I own without ceramic bearings. The right detent is more then likely the biggest factor.

Aren't skateboard wheels urethane now and shock absorbing? Or did they go back to clay?

It's a fallacy to posit that if material type X is used by NASA, or NASCAR, or the NSA it's good because NASA, and NASCAR and the NSA are all at the top of the game and thus material X must also be good in knives.

Or if you like when you find material X in a skateboard then it must be good in knives too. Now if you posit that because skateboard wheels have ceramic bearings they would also be suitable for Razor scooters your theory would have a leg to stand on. But it would still be dicey as wheels aren't the same and the fixing methods for the axle vs. the truck aren't identical.

 

[Mo2]

Aren't skateboard wheels urethane now and shock absorbing? Or did they go back to clay?

It's a fallacy to posit that if material type X is used by NASA, or NASCAR, or the NSA it's good because NASA, and NASCAR and the NSA are all at the top of the game and thus material X must also be good in knives.

Or if you like when you find material X in a skateboard then it must be good in knives too. Now if you posit that because skateboard wheels have ceramic bearings they would also be suitable for Razor scooters your theory would have a leg to stand on. But it would still be dicey as wheels aren't the same and the fixing methods for the axle vs. the truck aren't identical.

Ceramic bearings in bikes and skateboards may not be a huge issue if your not doing tricks. It will be primarily for downhill speed runs on a smooth surface. Still issues can occur but less likely in those scenarios. They will undoubtedly crack or cause the softer metal they ride in to go out of round if your doing tricks and jumps.

Nasa, Nascar, f1 etc have huge budgets and will replace things like engines every race. Nasa may use them for things not taking huge strains.

 

[craytab]

Ceramic bearings in bikes and skateboards may not be a huge issue if your not doing tricks. It will be primarily for downhill speed runs on a smooth surface. Still issues can occur but less likely in those scenarios. They will undoubtedly crack or cause the softer metal they ride in to go out of round if your doing tricks and jumps.

Nasa, Nascar, f1 etc have huge budgets and will replace things like engines every race. Nasa may use them for things not taking huge strains.

Do you do tricks with you're knives? I don't. I cut things.

Folks need to admit when knive things go beyond use and into the knife nerd realm. I like knife nerd stuff. It is fun.

I think the reason a knife company would not include a ceramic system is because they don't see a need or the cost is prohibitive. If crk does it, good for them! Great knives that cost a bunch. All these foreign brands doing it seems to me that they are trying to be cool. That's okay, but at least admit if you like that sort of thing. Functionality is not changed.

 

[GermanyChris]

I wish I hadn't brought up the bikes and skateboards now...

My bones reds ceramics were $80 for the set and that's entry level.

Bike hubs with ceramic bearings are $500-$700 per hub.

There's not really a valid way to compare them to bearings on a knife simply their cost far exceeds what would be in a knife.

 

[Danke42]

Ceramic bearings in bikes and skateboards may not be a huge issue if your not doing tricks. It will be primarily for downhill speed runs on a smooth surface. Still issues can occur but less likely in those scenarios. They will undoubtedly crack or cause the softer metal they ride in to go out of round if your doing tricks and jumps.

Nasa, Nascar, f1 etc have huge budgets and will replace things like engines every race. Nasa may use them for things not taking huge strains.

You may have missed the point.

The point is just because a "thing" is used in one application that doesn't mean it will be good for all applications.

Wood is great. It floats and in a pinch it can be used to start a fire. Should survival knives be thus made out wood because if your boat capsizes your metal knife will sink? Or if you need to start a fire after coming out of the water or you'll die from hypothermia you can use your knife as tinder? Those are both realistic survival situations that need immediate remedy. If you shiver to death your old fashioned metal knife won't do you any good when you're dead.

Of course knives shouldn't be made of floatable, flammable materials; but my argument makes sense. If your metal knife sinks or there's no fuel for a fire then you're in trouble.

 

[Lapedog]

Marketing. That is where the cost will be passed on and inflated. That is my point.

Ceramics aren't necessary. Nor are steel bearings. Can they be fun? Of course. My favorite edc folder has bearings. Love it.

S35vn over 420hc is necessary for what I use a knife for.

This seems like a theoretical argument rather than a discussion of practical need. I love ridiculous knives that don't make much sense (tglb) and I have no problem admitting that. Those who want ceramic everything should consider doing the same.

I don’t think I have read anyone in this thread saying that ceramic bearings or bearings at all are necessary.

I have read people argue that they are a neat thing that is fun to have. I don’t really see any major advantage beyond that.

 

[rpttrsn]

Aren't skateboard wheels urethane now and shock absorbing? Or did they go back to clay?

It's a fallacy to posit that if material type X is used by NASA, or NASCAR, or the NSA it's good because NASA, and NASCAR and the NSA are all at the top of the game and thus material X must also be good in knives.

Or if you like when you find material X in a skateboard then it must be good in knives too. Now if you posit that because skateboard wheels have ceramic bearings they would also be suitable for Razor scooters your theory would have a leg to stand on. But it would still be dicey as wheels aren't the same and the fixing methods for the axle vs. the truck aren't identical.

IMPACT- Do you think flipping open a knife or dropping 4 or more feet with 150+ lbs, on a skateboard bearings, have the same impact. Don't get your Jeans to tight. It was only my opinion. Shock applied to stop pin.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Ceramic ball bearings in a knife have absolutely no effect on the pivot action (granted that the tolerances are correct). I don't care how smooth you believe it is, it's bologna. Hell, teflon washers can still give you "drop shut action" as long as the lockbar and detent are set up correctly.

Now a ceramic detent? Yeah, that does make a difference in the action if the lockbar itself is done correctly. I've tried almost every pivot system out there. Detent and lockbar tension are 95% of the "smoothness" that most people actually think is the pivot.

Make a flipper on washers, slap a pivot bushing in there, throw in a ceramic detent, and tune the lockbar to lock effectively and cause no drag on the blade tang and your flipper will flip like the rest of them.

The best thing that bearings have going for them is that they are already "true". Washers often need to be sanded down to make them "true" and fit to the correct tolerance.

 

[Mo2]

Do you do tricks with you're knives? I don't. I cut things.

See post 48

As for fun or neat, I don't think that at all. I prefer them due to there advantages over steel, nothing more. And I have lots of steel bearing knives I have zero issues with.

I do prefer the few knives I have or have handled with dual row bearings. It's a bit different feeling in the action.

Again, not required but it does help for heavier or larger blades. Though even the neon ultra light is amazing with them and it has dual row and a small blade.