Why don't you post in the Custom sub-forum?

[Joss]

Joss, I find your point regarding art knives driving the entire custom market interesting. It makes me wonder if it is true on all levels, or whether it is a two-tiered system?

My point being, many people early in their knifemaking career sell knives to family, friends, work acquaintences, etc, who've never even realized there were "custom knives" before.

After awhile it gets to the level of selling more than locally, at which point it enters more into the stream I see you speaking of.

How does that idea of levels strike you?

I think that hobbyists who sell at a loss to friends and family are not really what we're talking about. It's a good way (the only way maybe) to learn the trade, but by definition isn't a way to make a living.

In order to sell those simple knives at full price and make a living at it, you need the whole reputation of the custom knife world behind you, and that comes from high value added knives. This (in my opinion) is the only way a simple 3-piece custom hunter can compete with some of the high quality production knives.

 

[fitzo]

Joss, I think that, unless you've developed perhaps too thick a skin over there , it should be quite evident without me citing examples.

There is a difference between truth delivered with good taste and truth delivered with the specific intent of belittling the recipient. The single thread on "Critique" delivers numerous examples, and I don't mean Steven. The frailties of publicly visible words lack nuance, and often hurt feelings of readers, even if unintentionally.

While it might be easily accepted that one needs a "thick skin", hopefully the participants can also understand they leave a sometimes negative impression they're never aware of.

Just a friendly observation.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Respect is earned - this is the key point you're missing. Everyone deserves to be treated with normal decency and politness, but respect, that's something else.

I respect makers who know that they can do the most sublime knives yet choose to also make small, cheap, utilitarian knives, makers like Don Fogg, Burt Foster, and in fact many of the top makers.

Straight from the dictionary:

respect
–verb (used with object)
-to hold in esteem or honor: I cannot respect a cheat.
-to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
-to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy.
-to relate or have reference to.

I agree with Justin on this one, I think. You will have my respect until you do something to prove otherwise -this is what normal decency and politeness are all about. Normal decency and politeness go hand in hand with respect. Neither of the two makers mentioned in the quote above have ever shown me anything other than decency, politeness and respect. I hope to hell I've done the same -or maybe I'm taking the tone of your post wrong?

 

[Joss]

I've always had a very thick skin - so much so that it has been both an asset and a liability in my professional life (I take feedback like no one else, but I'm also a tad blunt). If we're talking about bluntness, then I have seen many examples. If we're talking about "boorishness" or "specific intent of belittling the recipient", then I haven't.

 

[tntbegg]

You know Joss, I personally agree with you. I think however some of the elitist collectors forget the POLITE AND DECENCY, and that is really the heart of the problem.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling a maker what you don't like, what you do, what you think might improve his work. IT IS NECCESSARY for his growth.

You don't have to call him an idiot, moron who is too blind to find his own ass with both hands and has no business picking up a hammer or stepping into a shop. You don't have to say that POS you just threw together isn't worth buying let alone critiquing, and get out of our sight till you have studied at the feet of a master. I don't beleive these exact words have been used...its been implied. At least in the minds of many of the makers...and PERCEPTION is important in this case.

Joss, you have never been taken with any of Todd's knives, BUT you have ALWAYS offered your opinions in a POLITE AND DECENT manner.....so its much easier to take what you say under advisement. which he does.

On the flip side, I think some of you men need to just man up for crying out loud!!!! If your going to let a handful of elitist collectors push you around on a FORUM, holy crap, how do you handle the shows??? where they pick your stuff up, give it a once over and toss it back down like they just held a turd in their hands?? If your a hobbyist, you don't need to put up with it. If you want to sell, and make some kind of living at it....its part of the deal, and you better learn how to change that turd into something worth looking at and buying. Its that simple.

Todd was told by a collector and a maker respectively, that he had no talent, stop yapping at the heels of the big dogs, he would never make it, just quit and go back to his day job.He was told his knives were clunky, ugly and had no life.This was in person, not just on some forum. I kid you not. You know what he did, he licked his wounds,and he stopped making clunky, ugly lifeless knives. Could those guys have said it nicer, politer, in a more encouraging way...ABSOLUTELY. they didn't. Because they were JERKS. Didn't change the truth of their assessment of the knives.

If you stay right here in this cosy, friendly, uplifting knifemakers only environment, and never venture outside of this comfort zone you are probably going to be missing out. For every pompous ass waiting to pounce on you, there are dozens who will kindly, politely take the time to help you improve, and isn't that what all you guys want to do at the end of the day? Make the best knife you can??

tanya begg

 

[fitzo]

I think that hobbyists who sell at a loss to friends and family are not really what we're talking about. It's a good way (the only way maybe) to learn the trade, but by definition isn't a way to make a living.

In order to sell those simple knives at full price and make a living at it, you need the whole reputation of the custom knife world behind you, and that comes from high value added knives. This (in my opinion) is the only way a simple 3-piece custom hunter can compete with some of the high quality production knives.

I believe therein lies the difference in approach, Joss, and it is an important one for people to realize. Most of us look at the field of custom knives (naively) as a continuum, whereas in reality there is a separation point between hobbyist and fulltime maker that is more noticeable to the collector than maker as simple differences in skill level. We all know it intuitively, but sometimes forget the ramifications.

It is a good lesson for us to try to retain.

Thank you.

 

[Joss]

Straight from the dictionary:

respect
–verb (used with object)
-to hold in esteem or honor: I cannot respect a cheat.
-to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
-to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy.
-to relate or have reference to.

I agree with Justin on this one, I think. You will have my respect until you do something to prove otherwise.

Do you use respect in the 1st meaning (bolded)? If yes, we have to (respectfully) agree to disagree. I don't hold in esteem & honor people by default - they have to deserve it. I do consider that decency and politeness are the right defaul behavior, but that's different.

 

[fitzo]

I've always had a very thick skin - so much so that it has been both an asset and a liability in my professional life (I take feedback like no one else, but I'm also a tad blunt). If we're talking about bluntness, then I have seen many examples. If we're talking about "boorishness" or "specific intent of belittling the recipient", then I haven't.

We certainly have differing impressions, Joss. I come from a scientific background where bluntness is a way of life. Point-counterpoint was common, but it wasn't too difficult to discern when it was accompanied with a sneer. Perhaps I simply need better understanding of how bluntness works in a non-technical environment.

 

[Joss]

You don't have to call him an idiot, moron who is too blind to find his own ass with both hands and has no business picking up a hammer or stepping into a shop.

I agree. I have not seen this happen, or very, very rarely. I'd like to get specific example.

You don't have to say that POS you just threw together isn't worth buying let alone critiquing...

Well, if I'm going to write anything, I'm going to try to be constructive about it. I would never post simply for the sake of saying "your knife is not worth my time". If the knife isn't worth my time, I simply don't post. Many times, I don't post on knives because I simply don't have the time, even though they might be worthy of comment. Life is short.

Joss, you have never been taken with any of Todd's knives, BUT you have ALWAYS offered your opinions in a POLITE AND DECENT manner.....so its much easier to take what you say under advisement. which he does.

Understand - Todd is a near genius. He's still finding his ways on designs, and when one of his knives makes my heart go pitty-pat, I don't want him to spit in my face when I want to place an order. So I'm willing to invest the time in helping any way I can. This is not out of charity - he deserves my (and most collectors') attention*. Maybe that makes me a mean snob, but that's the truth.

JD



* And this is true even if none of his designs ever catches my heart. because his example can inspire someone else who will.

 

[fitzo]

.....
On the flip side, I think some of you men need to just man up for crying out loud!!!! If your going to let a handful of elitist collectors push you around on a FORUM, holy crap, how do you handle the shows??? ...

tanya begg

You know, you're 100% correct, Tanya.

Here's my new advice, knifemakers:

For every collector who shows disdain, another will come along who might love your work. Piss on the wankers. If they get too cocky, tell 'em to move on before they see your other side, the reason why you have to work alone. They're spiteful enough amongst each other there's a good chance someone else will buy your knives simply to stick it in the other guy's arse.

There. That felt good.

 

[NickWheeler]

Holy crap... what did I do???

LOL

I hope everybody takes a deep breath and can relax. I sure didn't mean to start this fire.

I don't take back anything I wrote before, I stand behind it...



But I see something happening here that I don't like at all.





When I was full-time in the knife gig I ended up hammering, beating, twisting, and manipulating (horrible puns included free of charge!) my love/passion for making knives into a job... something that I HAD to do everyday and couldn't ever get away from... something that I had to rely on if I wanted any money. I turned a lot of my time in the shop into something that I would NOT be excited about and look forward to.

The guys that are really good and professional make it a career and still enjoy it. I admire that to no end. From an outside POV as a friend, I would say Todd and Tanya are making it work real well. I didn't, and I burned up a lot of my love for what I was doing.

After going back to a "real" job (which is MUCH less actual WORK- BTW) I shook off all of those burned edges.

Then, just recently while working on an integral for pro photographer Jim Cooper... my little whisper flame of excitement for what I do in the shop really took off again and now my knifemaking fire is out of control. I have ten million ideas and not even close to enough time to get to them all! :thumbup:

THAT PASSION AND HEAD FULL OF IDEAS IS WHY I STARTED MAKING KNIVES!!!! That fire and passion and desire.

I am very fortunate that what I want to build and am able to build coincide with what quite a few collectors want to buy. VERY FORTUNATE. Some of it is chalked up to hard work, some of it is luck and some of it was me sending collectors subliminal messages to buy my knives But it at the end of the day it is simply me being fortunate to have a love to build something that some other folks love to collect.

What I absolutely do not want, is for the technicalities or the attitiude of a few others to smother YOUR FIRE and take the fun out of making knives for you. If feeling like you have to try and work towards being the next Tim Hancock or Ken Steigerwalt stresses you out and kills the fun for you... then DON'T... just make what you want. I ENCOURAGE that you learn to do this craft well, because I think it is very rewarding to feel confident in your skills.

There are a million things you can do with your time. The fact that you chose to make knives in that time gives us all something in common. Whether our knives are ANYTHING alike does not matter.


Make knives because it's what you love to do and if you really want to reach that next level then you can. IF that is the case, then you will HAVE to suffer some of the bruises collectors can inflict (often they don't even mean to be rough, but wouldn't you be if you were spending that kind of $$$ on something???).

That is also something important to keep in mind. A buyer is going to be much less critical of a $200 hunter than a $500 hunter... or a $1500 bowie knife. Don't think that if your niche is affordable, working grade knives (note I did not say "users" ) you're going to be subjected to the same kind of scrutiny as the guy that makes the stuff on the other end of the spectrum.

I have a passion for making extremely clean knives. I am very very very intolerant of flaws in my work. It is inevitable, nobody makes a perfect knife. But, I am my own worst critic on making what I make squeaky clean. I have every intention of being one of the top guys in the world... no matter the "genre" whether it be stock removal, forging... WHATEVER. And I know that I have to roll with the punches. I don't mind it. It fits into my goals and even though I don't like it, I have learned to use the constructive criticism that helps and throw out the rest. BUT!!! That stuff doesn't ever cool down my fire.

So do what you love.

In the end, here's my summation for you all, especially people like me with ADD that just skimmed over all of the crap I just wrote.

Get out in your shop and make a frick'n knife because you WANT to!!!!

 

[fitzo]

Don't get too serious on us, Nicky, just 'cuz you started this.

We're jus' practicin' to be in the other forums.

 

[tntbegg]

There you go Mike! thats the spirit! Now lets see some knives!!!



Joss, your comments were very kind. thank you. I don't think I can let Todd see them, his head might swell.


Nick,Todd and I are SOOOO glad that your on FIRE again!!!! Your hiatus only made your knives more desirable and in demand. I think it was a brilliant marketing strategy on your part!! Balancing the ART of knife making with the BUSINESS of knife selling is a tough act, we are still learning.

 

[Gossman Knives]

I went fulltime 5 months ago and will never look back. I love what I do. The knives I make are for the people and close friends in the wilderness survival and outdoor community. I've spent many great times in the timber sharing a campfire with numerous members of this forum and other forums I frequent. I spend 7 days aweek in my shop, most of the time, and wouldn't change it for the world. Many of my customers have become good friends.
It doesn't get any better then this. :thumbup:
Scott

 

[John R. Fraps]

I go to the Custom forum to lurk regularly. As more than one highly conspicuous poster, and apparenly serious collector, has said in one manner or another, "If it hasn't been beat on with a hammer. I am not interested".....
I can respect that opinion, I am a "stock remover". I hope my slipjoints and many of my user "priced" linerlocks are used..... and they are stock removed.....I know I said that....

My market isn't , "You gotta Ren wax it to avoid corrrosion" I hope it is the users and those who might collect but don't wan't to have to oil and wax what they like.
I feel that is not the market addresses by the Custom forum.....

I do "lurk" there because it is foolish not to know what some serious collectors think.
I don't well match the objectives of a number of those particular collectors.....neither is wrong and neither is "right".....just different thoughts.... A number of my best clients aren't posters on that forum....a number of obviously knowledgeable collectors are posters there. I don't believe there is a "wrong"....just a particular group of collectors and a particular group of makers......what makes the sum as good as the addition of the parts........

I obviously "hain't" that intelectual in my post. So take it from a maker, I don't think there is a wrong idea.... just different opinions.
Joss no offense intended but I do have alot of respect for Fitzo's opinions even if I don't always understand them totally.....and Joss as a collector, and me being a collector and maker, I cant fault yours either.....

 

[Keith Montgomery]

So why would I post there? Would it not be like posting a pic of a Honda scooter in the Hummer forum?

There seems to be two kinds of collectors that frequent the custom knife forum. There are those that are only intersted in the types of knives they collect and the top makers of those knives, and there are the collectors that are interested in everything knife related.

I really seeing knives that have been made to be users, and a makers first, second, and so on knives so that I can follow the makers progression. There is so much more to knives than just what goes into my little myopic collection. I own knives that were a makers first try at doing something, and in some cases you can really tell they were a first attempt. It is seeing all kinds of knives from makers at every level that is what interests me. It is learning about steel, and heat treating, and all the other aspects of making knives that keeps me interested. If it was just about collecting knives, I think I'd have a different hobby.

 

[steelshaper]

Well I dont post much anywhere.
Thats the short answer.

Now for the long answer:
If I want to show of some of my work I use the knifemakers gallery. If I have a question about knifemaking I ask in the Q and A forum. If I want to read about what is hip I READ the customs sub forum.

In the custom knife world I am a no one and a waste of time.

Personally I dont feel the need to be told why someone is not going to buy my knife. I dont feel the need to be told all the ways I dont mesure up to the masters. I can see and read what the collecters want. I know what I nead to strive for and I work hard all the time to get better.

When a collecter wants a (ENTER MS NAME HERE) bowie they can buy it. If I make a bowie it is a William Crump bowie!

Now on the other hand if I get an order for a knife I will do my best to make it to the specs the customer wants. As long as they want a William Crump knife.

IMHO theres some good advice to be found in the customs sub forum. There is also alot of trype. Personally I would rather learn how to make a good knife than hear what a few guys think about whats hip.

I am of the opinion that we are better off keeping it the way its been. After all if those guys want to know what we are up to they can pop in over here. In the meantime we can let them talk about all the hip stuff the are buying and selling. And all of us knifemakers can keep on talking about how to make knives.

I wonder what exactly is the knifemakers gallery for?

Well I am finishing up my first integral finally. Making that was scary I just may post some pics of it over in the customs sub forum so I can be told how much I suck. More likely I will get ignored.

My two cents.

 

[Bruce Bump]

Well I dont post much anywhere.
Thats the short answer.

Now for the long answer:
If I want to show of some of my work I use the knifemakers gallery. If I have a question about knifemaking I ask in the Q and A forum. If I want to read about what is hip I READ the customs sub forum.

In the custom knife world I am a no one and a waste of time.

Personally I dont feel the need to be told why someone is not going to buy my knife. I dont feel the need to be told all the ways I dont mesure up to the masters. I can see and read what the collecters want. I know what I nead to strive for and I work hard all the time to get better.

When a collecter wants a (ENTER MS NAME HERE) bowie they can buy it. If I make a bowie it is a William Crump bowie!

Now on the other hand if I get an order for a knife I will do my best to make it to the specs the customer wants. As long as they want a William Crump knife.

IMHO theres some good advice to be found in the customs sub forum. There is also alot of trype. Personally I would rather learn how to make a good knife than hear what a few guys think about whats hip.

I am of the opinion that we are better off keeping it the way its been. After all if those guys want to know what we are up to they can pop in over here. In the meantime we can let them talk about all the hip stuff the are buying and selling. And all of us knifemakers can keep on talking about how to make knives.

I wonder what exactly is the knifemakers gallery for?

Well I am finishing up my first integral finally. Making that was scary I just may post some pics of it over in the customs sub forum so I can be told how much I suck. More likely I will get ignored.

My two cents.

Well said William. BTW I like the name Crump reminds me of Bump

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Do you use respect in the 1st meaning (bolded)? If yes, we have to (respectfully) agree to disagree. I don't hold in esteem & honor people by default - they have to deserve it. I do consider that decency and politeness are the right defaul behavior, but that's different.

Re-reading this thread today gave me a little more insight on the post I responded to initially, Joss... methinks our definition and application of same are congruent. Sorry if my previous post implied otherwise.

 

[B . Buxton]

William, its your business and how you want to proceed in it is up to you, I agree with that 100%.

But myself I would rather get the feedback from both makers and collectors on how to do things and what is expected in quality knives. I've been full time for several years and I still learn every day, if it wasn't for Mike Fitzgerald, Ron Duncan, Ron Clairborne, Nick Wheeler, J. Neilson and the list goes on and on including several collectors, I would have never kept improving and still am, because these guys helped me by telling me what I was doing wrong and how to fix it. Sure it stings a little when you poor your heart and soul into something and then things are pointed out that could have made it better, but if you listen to those that really care, in a short time you'll see a vast improvement in your own work, yourself.
I've always been a bit bullheaded and stubborn so if someone attacks my work rudely, it makes me try just that much harder to prove the SOB wrong.

I don't agree with what a few have said on the custom forum but I do believe its another form of educating makers so we can improve what we make. I don't think a little constructive critizism ever hurt anyone,matter of fact, it can help a great deal, but it needs be done politely and considerately. If a person really cares about helping others and wants to be listened to, they will be courtious about your feelings with their opinions, if not just ignore them. There's a bunch of great collectors out there that love all makes, shapes and advancements in knives, so don't sh@t can the whole barrel because of 1 or 2.

Just my opinion, happy knife'in

Bill

One last thing, lets all meet at N. Wheelers "Richard" jr. and beat him up. For no reason, just because he's nick. just kidding.