Why is Alox so expensive?

slyraven said:
Does this mean older saks have more durable thicker material? I have a mixture of alox and whatever else victorinox uses in their red knives, a few older ones too, just curious to know.
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The older SAK scales were a solid piece of the material they call cellidor. The only cavity in them was for the toothpick and tweezers and for the rivet holes they snapped onto. But the newness are all hollow under the surface and if dropped, break off in good size chunks. The hollows in the new castings create an almost fragile handle scale and a giant step in a bad direction from Victorinox.

It always seems to be the end that gets it. When I dropped mine on the bathroom floor, the end of a scale broke off about 1/3'd of the scale. Last year my son-in-law had the same thing happen to his hiker. It got knocked off the kitchen counter and when it hit the floor, a large pice of handle scale broke off. Not acceptable.

When I was in the army we had SAK"s. And like all young GI's, we were hard on our stuff. But I never saw scales break like now. Once in a while they came off, and you put a dab of glue in the holes and pushed them back on and went on. Now they just break apart. This is why I love the old Wenger SI, my pioneer, cadet, and secretary. You can't kill alox. I won't spend money on a newer SAK with the junk scales.

So, yes, the older solid scales were way better. The new scales are pure crap. Go alox if you're buying a new SAK.
 
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Wow didn’t know that. Fortunately i have all but one older SAK’s.
Though i just sent my 1989 Swis Champion to Victorinox to replace my broken wood saw.
I specifically asked to not replace the scales.
Glad i did now.
Why dont they make a Swiss Champion and some of the lower models ie.. Champ Plus, Explorer, Huntsman,Spartan..... with an Alox option?
 
David Nowlin said:
Wow didn’t know that. Fortunately i have all but one older SAK’s.
Though i just sent my 1989 Swis Champion to Victorinox to replace my broken wood saw.
I specifically asked to not replace the scales.
Glad i did now.
Why dont they make a Swiss Champion and some of the lower models ie.. Champ Plus, Explorer, Huntsman,Spartan..... with an Alox option?
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Even better would be a scale material of way better quality. There is any number of synthetic materials that are used in pocket knife scales that are light years ahead of the old cellidor. I had a Buck 301 stockman I carried for 25 years before wearing stout that had what I think was the original saw cut black delrin scales. At the end of that knifes life, the blades were worn down to toothpicks, and the scales had lost all the saw cut texture, but were intact and still there. This in spite of some years in the U.S. Army combat engineers, a tour in Vietnam, and a life time of hard work in a machine shop and off time backpacking, fishing, hunting, and camping with he growing family.

FRN like used on the well known Gerber LST, would work very well. It's cheap, rugged, resistant topmost chemicals unlike the Vic cellidor, and can be molded with built in texture for good grip. You can break a Spyderco knife blade but the FRN handle will still be good. It's great stuff.

In this day and age, there is simply no excuse for an insufficient material like cellidor.
 
jackknife said:
The older SAK scales were a solid piece of the material they call cellidor. The only cavity in them was for the toothpick and tweezers and for the rivet holes they snapped onto. But the newness are all hollow under the surface and if dropped, break off in good size chunks. The hollows in the new castings create an almost fragile handle scale and a giant step in a bad direction from Victorinox.

It always seems to be the end that gets it. When I dropped mine on the bathroom floor, the end of a scale broke off about 1/3'd of the scale. Last year my son-in-law had the same thing happen to his hiker. It got knocked off the kitchen counter and when it hit the floor, a large pice of handle scale broke off. Not acceptable.

When I was in the army we had SAK"s. And like all young GI's, we were hard on our stuff. But I never saw scales break like now. Once in a while they came off, and you put a dab of glue in the holes and pushed them back on and went on. Now they just break apart. This is why I love the old Wenger SI, my pioneer, cadet, and secretary. You can't kill alox. I won't spend money on a newer SAK with the junk scales.

So, yes, the older solid scales were way better. The new scales are pure crap. Go alox if you're buying a new SAK.
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Thanks for the info Jackknife, very informative! I dislike when classic companies that are well loved, start to cheap out on things. I'll take you advice and stick with old saks or new alox!
 
Wow you make a great point. You should beable to drop a knife on a hard floor and not destroy the handle. As much as i love my sak’s i really think they should step up their handle material for sure.
Wow i just realized i started two comments in a row with WOW?
 
I fully agree with jackknife on the cellidor scales. The older Spartan I had and carried for a decade back in the '80s through the '90s had a tougher cellidor handle. I had accidentally dropped it a few times onto the cement floor of my garage and my driveway, and all it had to show for it was a very slight fracture near the end of one scale that just looked like a line that never actually broke off. I love Victorinox products, but why they cheapened the design of the cellidor scales I'll never know. Well, I can guess it's about using less material to make the same products. But it wasn't a smart decision, considering SAKs are tools first, and tools sometimes get dropped.

Jim
 
The funny thing is, I've had more of the old solid scales break in use than I have the new hollow scales. YMMV.

As for Alox as an option, the construction is quite different between the two. I have a set of copper scales on a Scientist I carry every day, and the retention of the scale tools (toothpick, tweezers, pen and pin) is very poor compared to the plastic scales, so I wouldn't consider aluminum scales in place of the plastic to be a good option.

The FRN Spyderco uses is relatively inexpensive, but I'd be willing to bet it is much more expensive than what Victorinox is currently using.
 
yablanowitz said:
The funny thing is, I've had more of the old solid scales break in use than I have the new hollow scales. YMMV.

As for Alox as an option, the construction is quite different between the two. I have a set of copper scales on a Scientist I carry every day, and the retention of the scale tools (toothpick, tweezers, pen and pin) is very poor compared to the plastic scales, so I wouldn't consider aluminum scales in place of the plastic to be a good option.

The FRN Spyderco uses is relatively inexpensive, but I'd be willing to bet it is much more expensive than what Victorinox is currently using.
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FRN is about the cheapest synthetic material to work with. The production facility I worked at for almost 20 years before I retired did injection molding with the stuff. Once you're set up for it, it's incredibly fast and easy, and the stuff just pops out hundreds at a time, depending on the size of your machining. It can be molded into any shape and any color. What do you think the secret is of the Gerber LST's long running popularity and huge numbers of production? Or the little Buck mini Buck with the "Thermo plastic" molded handle? Aside from the Vic classic being out there in millions, I see a ton of those little mini Buck's bring used that look like they's been used hard and put away wet.

I know from my job as a Forman of a production machine shop that the unit price is literally pennies per item. It would cost Victorinox way less than a dollar per unit for an up graded handle material that would be near indestructible. Heck, just hike the price of the knife a bit. Instead of a recruit costing 17.95 at Academy ports, it will cost 18.95. Still a ridiculous bargain and you won't have the handle scales breaking if you drop it. Plus you can mold in some texture like on the 111mm scales.

It's passing strange that you don't see Vic putting those crappy cellidor scales on any military issue knives. Nylon all the way once they quit using aluminum. Since they already have a track record of using nylon, just make the switch to it for all models. At least you wouldn't have to worry about some gun cleaning solvents, bug repellents, cleaning fluids, fuel additives, and dropping the knife.

No, cellidor is an outdated material that needs to go. It's the one crappy facet of SAK's that hangs on because of some short sighted bean counter at Victorinox.
 
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jackknife said:
....No, cellidor is an outdated material that needs to go. It's the one crappy facet of SAK's that hangs on because of some short sighted bean counter at Victorinox.
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If the cellidor scales are hollow and real thin, they need to be thickened up or replaced with a more durable synthetic material. I wonder when this change occurred or is it only on certain models?
 
22-rimfire said:
If the cellidor scales are hollow and real thin, they need to be thickened up or replaced with a more durable synthetic material. I wonder when this change occurred or is it only on certain models?
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I think it was around the 2000 mark. Maybe a little before. It was a few years before the change to the tang stamp.
 
Oh wonderful. They won’t send me my originally ordered knife until they send their return lable and the knife is sent back?
Can you say CANCEL MY ORDER!!
They were fine with that i’m like you do realize you lost my business now and future?
They F’ed up and now putting me out even more and they think thats good business??
I considered buying the mistake kitchen knife but they only knocked $3 off and really not sure my wife(the chef) would use such a big knife? Oh well!! Just thought it was hilarious..
I hope they are foolish enough to send me a customer review??? ;):D:p
 
jackknife said:
I think it was around the 2000 mark. Maybe a little before. It was a few years before the change to the tang stamp.
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Geeze.... that was 18+ years ago..... All I can say is that I haven't had a problem. But I haven't dropped one on concrete or something really hard either that I recall.
 
Damn what are you waiting for? Just chuck one down on your tile floor now and get it over with!
The cost of club membership.... lol
 
No thanks. I break enough stuff that costs over $100 that way already. I have dropped my SAKs, but I don't recall one ever breaking.
 
Cellidor like all thermoplastics is technology that is in constant inprovement and which has improved immensely in the last decade. It's Victorinox special blend, probably ABS of a sort, and maybe EPDM, the rubbery plastic .

The cellidor of today is much better than of yore, like most plastic, now strong enough to replace the steel for panels in cars, for instance. New cellidor doesn't scratch, the images in bedded stay vivid and don't fade. The edges no longer Crack over time. It also supposed to not degrade. The cellidor is supposed to cushion the knife from impact in addition to making it more comfortable to hold.

I'd choose new plastic any day over brittle, cheap aw it's plastic of the old days. Technically sophisticated.
 
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