why is the 0566 2nd rate?

I can't say the size bothers me as I carry an 0560 daily lol. Luckily knife restrictions in KY are vague and with my ccdw I can now carry anything I like. I expect this knife to be ZT's number one seller, it hits that magic price point where those just starting to delve into higher end knives are comfortable paying. My first higher end blade was the 0350 and I still carry it at work as a backup/loaner. Looking back now I can honestly say this would have beat it out had it been available, I will get one in the future. Cool knife at a very reasonable price with Elmax, home run ZT. My only problem with ZT's direction is that ey are turning out sweet new knives much quicker than I can afford, it will take me close to a year to catch up on my KAI wish list as it stands, and I am sure plenty more is coming before I get to that point.
 
I can't say the size bothers me as I carry an 0560 daily lol. Luckily knife restrictions in KY are vague and with my ccdw I can now carry anything I like. I expect this knife to be ZT's number one seller, it hits that magic price point where those just starting to delve into higher end knives are comfortable paying. My first higher end blade was the 0350 and I still carry it at work as a backup/loaner. Looking back now I can honestly say this would have beat it out had it been available, I will get one in the future. Cool knife at a very reasonable price with Elmax, home run ZT. My only problem with ZT's direction is that ey are turning out sweet new knives much quicker than I can afford, it will take me close to a year to catch up on my KAI wish list as it stands, and I am sure plenty more is coming before I get to that point.


Ditto!
 
I believe Jimmer has said in a few other threads (0770 ones IIRC) that assisted knives are way more popular than bearings and likened it to automatic vs manual transmission cars. The minority are the vocal enthusiasts.

Well I think that is only because bearings in production knives is relatively in its infancy stages. Knife nuts know about them but many general users probably dont. I think now with more makers making bearing flippers and them getting closer to perfecting the system (optimal detents, larger lower friction detent balls, etc.) you will see bearing knives being more popular than assisted knives especially in flippers. The better they make flippers with bearings the less I see a need for a torsion bar or a spring. Heck, when the guy who invented speedsafe seems to prefer bearings over the opening system he actually invented these days I think is a testament to the potential popularity of bearings. I think it simply needs some promotion and explanation for those who otherwise would still view assisted opening knives superior to get them to convert.
 
I'm buying a couple for sure. I think Brent hit it on the head. They have a really nice knife, with good steel, and I am sure is of the ZT quality we all expect. It's gonna sell like nine kinds of hell. I don't really care if it doesn't have bearings, as that would only drive price. Same for the steel vs. the titanium scale.

I am ready for one. I further agree, that it may very well take their #1 selling postiion.
 
Well I think that is only because bearings in production knives is relatively in its infancy stages. Knife nuts know about them but many general users probably dont. I think now with more makers making bearing flippers and them getting closer to perfecting the system (optimal detents, larger lower friction detent balls, etc.) you will see bearing knives being more popular than assisted knives especially in flippers. The better they make flippers with bearings the less I see a need for a torsion bar or a spring. Heck, when the guy who invented speedsafe seems to prefer bearings over the opening system he actually invented these days I think is a testament to the potential popularity of bearings. I think it simply needs some promotion and explanation for those who otherwise would still view assisted opening knives superior to get them to convert.

I wish it were true, but I still don't see knives with bearing washers outpacing assisted knives in the general marketplace. To further abuse my original analogy, have paddle shifting semi-automatic transmissions really become so popular that people forgo their regular automatic transmissions? I rarely even see people use the tiptronic semi-automatics that have become so common in average cars.

Assisted opening is still the easiest option, and when you're not passionate about something, easy often wins. That being said, we will continue to make more new knives with ball bearing thrust washers - it just won't be all of them.
 
I wish it were true, but I still don't see knives with bearing washers outpacing assisted knives in the general marketplace. To further abuse my original analogy, have paddle shifting semi-automatic transmissions really become so popular that people forgo their regular automatic transmissions? I rarely even see people use the tiptronic semi-automatics that have become so common in average cars.

Assisted opening is still the easiest option, and when you're not passionate about something, easy often wins. That being said, we will continue to make more new knives with ball bearing thrust washers - it just won't be all of them.

AH, but my good man, like ball bearing pivots in knives it took a long time for for car companies to perfect that technology and some feel it still isnt perfect. I dont think comparing paddle shifting to automatic shifting is fair. Nor the comparison to bearings in knives really. There is no fair advantage to paddle shifting vs automatic shifting in a real world everyday application. There is with bearings in knives and general use. You have a system that can be just as fast if not faster than most assisted mechanisms and at the same time you have less moving parts and virtually no failure rate unlike the torsion bars or springs in A/O knives. That to me gives them an advantage that almost anyone could benefit from. In automotive, paddle shifters would be a novelty with no real advantage that the general public would concern themselves with. Most drivers wont care if they could improve launch times or experience faster gear changes. Even in the applications where paddle shifting has its advantages the technology for a long time was plagued with set backs and lag times between the time you hit the paddle and the time the shift actually took place. Its only recently that the technology was refined enough that it will start to catch on and be a realistic option for more applications.

Still it has limited scope seeing just how little advantage it has with the general public. Its only enthusiasts of racing and performance that have anything to gain from the technology. Anyone carrying an assisted opener has in theory, something to gain from a bearing pivot. Smoother, tighter action with little no risk of failure of moving parts while never sacrificing the speed than made A/O desirable. And if done with some finesse there is a balance where you can offer a knife that can be opened manually without speed at all which was only available on one assisted knife in the history of A/O's which you know as the cyclone. Still without people knowing about the technology and more companies willing to get the word out there in terms of advertising and promotion most people wont go looking for these advantages.

I think a better comparison if you want to go the automotive route would be the intermittent windshield wiper. Or the water dispelling tire tread. Hell even the automatic window and seat vs manual. Sure some wont justify the extra expense for the minimal advantage. But some have come to not be able to live without these small advances that improved upon or even replaced existing technology. You just have to make sure that its not a niche group that will benefit from the change. And then you have to make sure people actually know about it and understand it. Have you had many potential customers say they would have bought a 0560 if only it had speedsafe?
 
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In my opinion, if the 0566 had a flipper action reminiscent of the one on the 0801 there would be no need for assisted opening.
 
AH, but my good man, like ball bearing pivots in knives it took a long time for for car companies to perfect that technology and some feel it still isnt perfect. I dont think comparing paddle shifting to automatic shifting is fair. Nor the comparison to bearings in knives really. There is no fair advantage to paddle shifting vs automatic shifting in a real world everyday application. There is with bearings in knives and general use. You have a system that can be just as fast if not faster than most assisted mechanisms and at the same time you have less moving parts and virtually no failure rate unlike the torsion bars or springs in A/O knives. That to me gives them an advantage that almost anyone could benefit from. In automotive, paddle shifters would be a novelty with no real advantage that the general public would concern themselves with. Most drivers wont care if they could improve launch times or experience faster gear changes. Even in the applications where paddle shifting has its advantages the technology for a long time was plagued with set backs and lag times between the time you hit the paddle and the time the shift actually took place. Its only recently that the technology was refined enough that it will start to catch on and be a realistic option for more applications.

Still it has limited scope seeing just how little advantage it has with the general public. Its only enthusiasts of racing and performance that have anything to gain from the technology. Anyone carrying an assisted opener has in theory, something to gain from a bearing pivot. Smoother, tighter action with little no risk of failure of moving parts while never sacrificing the speed than made A/O desirable. And if done with some finesse there is a balance where you can offer a knife that can be opened manually without speed at all which was only available on one assisted knife in the history of A/O's which you know as the cyclone. Still without people knowing about the technology and more companies willing to get the word out there in terms of advertising and promotion most people wont go looking for these advantages.

I think a better comparison if you want to go the automotive route would be the intermittent windshield wiper. Or the water dispelling tire tread. Hell even the automatic window and seat vs manual. Sure some wont justify the extra expense for the minimal advantage. But some have come to not be able to live without these small advances that improved upon or even replaced existing technology. You just have to make sure that its not a niche group that will benefit from the change. And then you have to make sure people actually know about it and understand it. Have you had many potential customers say they would have bought a 0560 if only it had speedsafe?

I would be happy if it does become more popular - I like the ball bearing washers myself, and I'd love to use them in a larger percentage of our knives. The number of knives we make with ball bearings continues to grow. However, we still encounter novices who can't get the knife to open all the way with a manual action knife, even with ball bearing washers. You can be be a total novice and not even much effort, and an assisted knife will still open.

I'm not necessarily arguing against anything. I'm merely providing an educated opinion as someone who is privy to sales numbers.
 
In my opinion, if the 0566 had a flipper action reminiscent of the one on the 0801 there would be no need for assisted opening.

The 0566 would flip just fine with manual action and ball bearing washers. The decision to use assisted opening was based on what would make the knife most popular in the general market.

We are drilling a detent hole in the blade on this one, so it will function manual or assisted.
 
The 0566 would flip just fine with manual action and ball bearing washers. The decision to use assisted opening was based on what would make the knife most popular in the general market.

We are drilling a detent hole in the blade on this one, so it will function manual or assisted.

Two HUGE thumbs up from this guy on that note, Jimmer! Thank you! :thumbup::thumbup:
 
IMO, the 056X's with SpeedSafe would sell much better than the manual ZTVT set-up it currently has.
 
IMO, the 056X's with SpeedSafe would sell much better than the manual ZTVT set-up it currently has.

This! SpeedSafe works every time. Even the pro's here have had failure(s) to deploy with a manual.....just watch the YouTube vids from 2013 Blade Show some have posted up :)
 
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The 0566 would flip just fine with manual action and ball bearing washers. The decision to use assisted opening was based on what would make the knife most popular in the general market.

We are drilling a detent hole in the blade on this one, so it will function manual or assisted.

I think like the 0350 the AO on the upcoming 0566 would definitely help its popularity, ease of use and sales. AO seems to be a more consistent deployment mechanism across the widest audience and it doesn't have to deal with variables like detent strength.
 
I'll take assisted over anything else any day of the week. Bearings, no bearings, doesn't matter. I like the assisted opening.
Incidentally, never driven paddle shifters, and I do use the "tiptronic" transmissions, every time I rent one. The only reason I don't use it every time I drive my wife's car is because I don't know that it is really intended to be used that way. More like ... well, nevermind, I'm digressing. In my every day driving, I drive a 1997 TJ with a standard transmission, and standard transmission is always my favorite. But give me an assisted opener on a knife every time.

I am glad it has a detent, though.
 
I would be happy if it does become more popular - I like the ball bearing washers myself, and I'd love to use them in a larger percentage of our knives. The number of knives we make with ball bearings continues to grow. However, we still encounter novices who can't get the knife to open all the way with a manual action knife, even with ball bearing washers. You can be be a total novice and not even much effort, and an assisted knife will still open.

I'm not necessarily arguing against anything. I'm merely providing an educated opinion as someone who is privy to sales numbers.

And im not trying to argue either man, I just like discussing such things. It interests me is all. Im the type of knife nut that doesnt just enjoy that something works I like to know why it works and how to make it better. I believe you though when you say some guys still have issues with a manual knife with bearings. The only solution to the issue you talk about that works for me is to use a slightly larger ball than your used to using for the detent. The larger ball ensures the detent wont release the blade without there being enough stored energy for full deployment. It would seem the larger ball mimics the resistance of heavier lock bar tension but with a smoother release. It doesnt feel so "clicky" if that makes any sense to you. The detent feels like its rolling out rather than snapping out. Some knives feel like the detent is going to rip out of the frame. Plus the larger radius to the ball seems to help with resistance and drag that the ball will encounter as it rides along the blade. Similar to how those pads with a radius you put under heavy furniture so you can move a dresser along carpet without it digging in. Ive found smaller detents can actually dig into the blade material. Almost creating a cutting action of their own. Especially if they have developed a flat spot from being tapped in with a punch. The slightly larger radius seems at first to be counterproductive by increasing surface area. But the combination of the detent contact point being rounder and the fact that you dont need as much lockbar tension to get the same resistance seems to be a winning combination for ultimate smoothness and guaranteed firing. Its really weird to experience the differences because it seems totally counter intuitive. With knives with smaller detent ball but more lockbar tension it seems to fatigue my finger more and give me the impresstion of a very hard to fire knife. That rolling action with less locbar tension seems to make for an easier flip that is almost always guaranteed to fully fire. Not that you haven't all ready experienced this. Im just stating my observations from modding and tinkering. My latest hobby obviously being detents on flippers.


We are drilling a detent hole in the blade on this one, so it will function manual or assisted.

I know this would seem stupid to you but I do know a few very select makers actually combining bearings with assisted open so there can be a choice. As well as the advantage of less performance loss in the case of a torsion bar failure. That would have been great for a knife like the cyclone where you actually could turn it on or off.

IMO, the 056X's with SpeedSafe would sell much better than the manual ZTVT set-up it currently has.
man that is so crazy to hear that being for me the KVT being the main factor for me buying a 0560. But again that very well could only mean that im in the minority as usual,lol. I do surely hope the system becomes more popular. Im hoping for more bearing knives from all companies. Id hate to see it flop and companies bailing out from using bearings. Here is praying that bearing systems are just slow starters.
 
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IMO, the 056X's with SpeedSafe would sell much better than the manual ZTVT set-up it currently has.

Undoubtedly!

Unless of course they had a strong detent and/or their flipper operated more like the 0801 or 0600... :)
 
I think the ball bearing system is cool, only cuz it's a bit fresh. But honestly.. when did AOs and springs become sub-par and 2nd class? Springs are everywhere.. watches, cars, firearms, beds, chairs, even this toe nail clipper I'm using right now. Should they all have bearings instead?
 
I think the ball bearing system is cool, only cuz it's a bit fresh. But honestly.. when did AOs and springs become sub-par and 2nd class? Springs are everywhere.. watches, cars, firearms, beds, chairs, even this toe nail clipper I'm using right now. Should they all have bearings instead?

The thing is though, your talking about items that either cant use ball bearings to replace their existing parts or they simply wouldnt be improved from the use of ball bearings. The exception being watches. In that respect its worth noting that the most expensive watches in the world and most complicated movements use bearings. They are are made of synthetic ruby. Either way it would appear that springs and torsion bars arent second rate with the majority of knife buyers if what Jimmer_5 and KAI corp are saying is true. Though it surprises me that if A/Os are so much more desirable and sell so much better why nearly every high dollar knife they have chosen to release in recent years they choose KVT instead of Speedsafe. Now that I think about it KAI doesnt have an entry level KVT knife. You still need to spend roughly $195 to get a knife with KVT. I wonder if KVT knives would sell any better if they were accessible at all price points. It would seem to me that if you want to compare apples to apples in sales you need to have high dollar knives with Speedsafe and lower cost knives with KVT. But for me, If I can have a knife that is just as fast, and infinitely more reliable I see it as nothing but win.
 
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Could be a properly-executed KVT drives the cost to the high end.
 
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