Why isn't Spyderco doing anything to combat the fake copies of their products?

Thanks Sal for the important information. I got duped into buying one and returned it promptly! Personally I can't imagine any true Spyderco lover intentionally buying a fake. For me there is pride in ownership of having the real thing. To each their own I guess.
 
Sal - thank you for your insightful replies. It's good to get info about this directly from you! I'm glad to hear that you have been going after these guys.

One additional comment - I could be incorrect, but it seems like the g10 knives with only laser etching on the blade get copied the most: paramilitary2, military etc. It seems like the knives with FRN handles, and stamped info on the blade (Delica, Endura etc) are not really copied much? I've read that the tooling required to manufacture injected molded handles is quite expensive...as well as tooling for stamping blades. Do you think this is a reason why we don't see many fake Seki City knives?
 
For me, the most important part of Sal's last post is that he truly understands the issue. The real problem isn't that people are getting duped into buying copies, it's that people are buying copies ON PURPOSE. And believe me, counterfeiting must be a thriving business or I doubt it wouldn't have impacted Sal as severely as it did in '99. Which leads me back to my question re: whether Sal's decision to produce knives offshore was at least partly the result of trying to combat the counterfeiters in their own backyard. After all, why would anyone buy a counterfeit if they could purchase the genuine article at or near the same price point?
 
bld522 said:
For me, the most important part of Sal's last post is that he truly understands the issue. The real problem isn't that people are getting duped into buying copies, it's that people are buying copies ON PURPOSE. And believe me, counterfeiting must be a thriving business or I doubt it wouldn't have impacted Sal as severely as it did in '99. Which leads me back to my question re: whether Sal's decision to produce knives offshore was at least partly the result of trying to combat the counterfeiters in their own backyard. After all, why would anyone buy a counterfeit if they could purchase the genuine article at or near the same price point?
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You do know that Spydercos first knife offering was built in Japan, right? It was years later that they started manufacturing in the US.
 
A tariff is a tax on imports. Unless the tax is high enough to stop imports, which is illegal, it is economically added to the price paid by consumers.

This is not a simple problem by any means.

The company I worked for entered into a contract with a Chinese company and found out later it was really the Peoples' Revolutionary Army. Want to sue them?

The Income Tax, by the way, was initiated to partially fund the Civil War. It came and went before being made permanent in 1913. Excise and death taxes also arrived in the 19th century.
 
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You make a variety of good points Gringo. I think a good portion of the problem is that we've let it go this far without a concerted effort to stop it. Most economists internationally agree that the Yuan is about 40% undervalued as is. This makes the fakes "cheaper" to produce, while exponentially more expensive for companies that suffer the IP loss like Spyderco.

Many other governments factor this into their trading policy. We don't at all, even though the Vietnam war was fought over the principle of the dangers of a communist market to the American way of life. It is really quite mind numbing to think about the followup policies to that.
 
You want more info on this topic on a larger and more watch "Death by China" it's on youtube.
 
bld522 said:
Point well taken, Sal. The problem is, there's very little anyone can do about folks who buy copies on purpose. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be interested in knowing how you managed to survive the situation you encountered with copies in '99. I notice a lot of Spyderco knives are made offshore, but I don't know when that began in earnest. Was it a case of, "if you can't lick 'em, join 'em"? (PS: My question isn't meant to point a finger and I'm not xenophobic. Some of my favorite Spydercos are made in Taichung! :) )
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Hi Bld,

In the late 90's, copies were common. They weren't counterfeits. They would copy our pattern of the Endura and Delica, use a large black thumbstud that looked like a hole in a picture and the kept changing the texture until they had gotten around our design patents and they flooded the market. I could purchase a "legal" copy of our Delica at our supermarket for $3.95. We kept fighting. Eventually they stopped. Perhaps because they'd filled their market, perhaps because they were poorly made and didn't work well. We shrank the company and perservered.

We began making knives in Japan. Couldn't get what I wanted here so Al Mar introduced me to his maker bacl in 1980. We still deal with them 33 years later. We added our Golden factory in the early 90's. Then Taiwain, Italy and China. Finding good quality makers for our standards is difficult. We work with China because the market demands an affordable line, most of our competitiors are building in China and we believe we are working with some we can trust.

sal
 
Our local problem with "tin men" stripping downspouts and piping out of buildings (often occupied) - even manhole covers out of the streets - got better when it dawned on someone that there were many "tin men" but far fewer scrap dealers. Focus on those "worthies" took a big chunk out of the thieving.

There are many companies in Asia who will make knockoffs, but one company that is the "fence." That would be ePrey. Behind eBay's pious crap, they make money selling illegal goodsso they keep doing it.

Looks like Europe is where to go after them. No such good results in U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_Inc._v._eBay,_Inc.

PARIS — EBay said it would appeal a French court’s order that it pay 38.6 million euros ($60.8 million) in damages to the French luxury goods company LVMH, the latest round in a long-running legal battle over the sale of counterfeit goods on the Internet.
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eBay liable for counterfeits sold on its site
A ruling by the European Court of Justice rules that eBay cannot claim exemption for goods listed on its site.
BY OLIVIA BERGIN | 12 JULY 2011
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Versace Wins Counterfeit Ebay Suit - Business Insider
www.businessinsider.com/versace-wins-counterfeit-ebay-...‎
Business Insider
May 29, 2013 - Italian fashion house Versace has triumphed over a ring of counterfeiters in court – but it has take the label four-and-a-half-years to do so.
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http://www.cardozoaelj.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Mercado.pdf

Maybe it's a political problem to be dealt with by politicians.
 
bld522 said:
Point well taken, Sal. The problem is, there's very little anyone can do about folks who buy copies on purpose. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be interested in knowing how you managed to survive the situation you encountered with copies in '99. I notice a lot of Spyderco knives are made offshore, but I don't know when that began in earnest. Was it a case of, "if you can't lick 'em, join 'em"? (PS: My question isn't meant to point a finger and I'm not xenophobic. Some of my favorite Spydercos are made in Taichung! :) )
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Don't discount the power of information. I can imagine myself at 16 years of age lusting after a military. There's no way I could have afforded one, but I was young and stupid and I might have been able to convince myself that a knockoff would be the next best thing. I wasn't too stupid to ignore good advice though, so if I had run across a thread like this it might have kept me from throwing my money away. Most people are not buying these things for malicious reasons. They are just making really dumb decisions. Let's keep putting the truth out there and some will find it. Some will even listen. :)
 
I wonder if a group of knife makers and other manufacturers that get knocked off filed a class action lawsuit against the online sources of counterfeits (that river site and the big auction site) might do any good?
 
centennial said:
I wonder if a group of knife makers and other manufacturers that get knocked off filed a class action lawsuit against the online sources of counterfeits (that river site and the big auction site) might do any good?
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The bulk of the crime seems to involve clothing, leather goods, cosmetics, jewelry, and electronics. $$billions.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Bld,

In the late 90's, copies were common. They weren't counterfeits. They would copy our pattern of the Endura and Delica, use a large black thumbstud that looked like a hole in a picture and the kept changing the texture until they had gotten around our design patents and they flooded the market. I could purchase a "legal" copy of our Delica at our supermarket for $3.95. We kept fighting. Eventually they stopped. Perhaps because they'd filled their market, perhaps because they were poorly made and didn't work well. We shrank the company and perservered.

We began making knives in Japan. Couldn't get what I wanted here so Al Mar introduced me to his maker bacl in 1980. We still deal with them 33 years later. We added our Golden factory in the early 90's. Then Taiwain, Italy and China. Finding good quality makers for our standards is difficult. We work with China because the market demands an affordable line, most of our competitiors are building in China and we believe we are working with some we can trust.

sal
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Thanks for the history lesson, Sal. I'm glad the counterfeiters didn't run you out of business. What a loss that would have been.
 
Surfingringo said:
Most people are not buying these things for malicious reasons.
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I agree.

I think Sal hit the nail on the head. People buy counterfeits primarily for the reasons he stated in his previous post and they justify their decisions accordingly. Once someone has rationalized their way to a decision, it's extremely difficult to get them to change their mind. And I, for one, don't think knowledge is nearly as important as bringing legitimate products to market that people who buy counterfeits can afford. That seems to have been Sal's approach. If I'm right about that, I'd say it's working for the most part. I'd also say that those who disparage knives that are not made in the USA should be grateful that Sal made the decision he made. Were it not for that, there might not be ANY Spyderco knives . . . let alone American-made Sypderco knives . . . for anyone to buy.
 
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It is a chess game, with the odds stacked in the counterfeiter's favor. It's not possible to build a quality knife with a good steel at the same cost as a cheap knife with a poor steel and a 7-1 dollar valuation on the side of the counterfeiter.

sal
 
No doubt about it, Sal. But clearly you've found a way to compete with them and remain profitable. So whatever you're doing, please keep doing it.
 
Thanx.

Looks like Alibaba will be on the US stock exchange. It is my understading that they handle many of the counterfeits which I guess weill made them legitimate. Interesting that there are so many real problems in our country with potentially long term negative effects and it seems the news media and politicians hover on less significant issues.

sal
 
Surfingringo said:
Don't discount the power of information. I can imagine myself at 16 years of age lusting after a military. There's no way I could have afforded one, but I was young and stupid and I might have been able to convince myself that a knockoff would be the next best thing. I wasn't too stupid to ignore good advice though, so if I had run across a thread like this it might have kept me from throwing my money away. Most people are not buying these things for malicious reasons. They are just making really dumb decisions. Let's keep putting the truth out there and some will find it. Some will even listen. :)
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It's the only way I see to combat the problem. A pretty simple solution to an incredibly complicated problem. I don't understand a damn thing about economics, but I'm pretty sure once the people are educated and demand for counterfeits dries up, the good guys win. But therein lies another problem. Education. Not every knife customer is on a forum and has access to the information, or has even thought to look. Not every knife customer even really cares; all some people care about is their own money and those are the people who give the excuses that Sal referenced, as well as the excuses eBay might reference for allowing the "legal" sale of blatantly counterfeit goods. Spyderco is hopelessly outnumbered, but with enough of our support they can keep fighting the good fight. I'll leave you with the most hackneyed, but still my favorite George Carlin quote:
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(Not me, of course. I used a semicolon in a sentence today!)
 
Sal Glesser said:
Thanx.

Looks like Alibaba will be on the US stock exchange. It is my understading that they handle many of the counterfeits which I guess weill made them legitimate. Interesting that there are so many real problems in our country with potentially long term negative effects and it seems the news media and politicians hover on less significant issues.

sal
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Like the Kardashians?
 
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