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I was playing with my SAK last night and thinking about this thread and I gotta agree. Just right.
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Why nail breakers?
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I was playing with my SAK last night and thinking about this thread and I gotta agree. Just right.
dannyp
Gold Member
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I don't mind a strong spring as long as it isn't to the point that it's painful to open. A knife that can't be opened is totally useless and should be fixed or replaced.
The only reason that I can think of how they get past QC is that maybe they use blade openers. I would imagine that opening and closing a large number of knives at a time is hard on the bare hands.
As far as the GEC #73 pattern is concerned, mine was just fine. I could see how they would have been worse than the #23 if they tempered the springs the same at first. The combination of the pull being closer to the pivot and having less flex in the shorter length of backspring would definitely make a difference.
The only reason that I can think of how they get past QC is that maybe they use blade openers. I would imagine that opening and closing a large number of knives at a time is hard on the bare hands.
As far as the GEC #73 pattern is concerned, mine was just fine. I could see how they would have been worse than the #23 if they tempered the springs the same at first. The combination of the pull being closer to the pivot and having less flex in the shorter length of backspring would definitely make a difference.
KnifeHead
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I like a firm back spring myself but have no use for nail breakers. I've got a few and they are buried somewhere in my storage cabinets.
I've got one custom that I bought on the secondary market, that I feel is dangerous to try to open and close. Most of you would recognize the makers name. It's a beautiful knifebut I can't carry something I don't like to use.
What kind of handle material and how is the center pin finished? Maybe it's an easy tweek the maker would be happy to do. It's a shame when a great knife can't be used.
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I found this thread casually and I spent some time thinking about it...
I come from a land of handmade slipjoints. Sardinian knives are generally pretty smooth to open. So I assume my opinion on this topic is highly influenced by my childhood relationship with knives. Anyway, as long as they stay closed while u handle them, I don't really see the point in having such a strong back spring.
While I was thinking about this thing, I opened up my knive drawer and saw something that made me think.
Some 15 years ago, when I was a teenager, my uncle (who's in the army) gave me this slipjoint knife as a gift. No idea of the brand or maker at all. It's a big folder with a couple of "extras" (a smaller blade, a screwdriver and a corkscrew), blade is between 3,5 and 4 inches I guess (I will measure it and take some pics maybe). When I got it, I did like it...it was way bigger than my SAK and sardinian traditional folders, blade thicker and so on...I did like it alot and was so thankful. I thought it would be good as a camping/trekking knife...a bit on the heavy side but I liked it.
I never used it.
Opening it is (still now) a pain. Nail breaking is around the corner. So I kept using my SAK and traditional Pattada folders. The knife is still here, but at the bottom of my drawer...cause for some "not too mysterious reason" I came to hate it.
I come from a land of handmade slipjoints. Sardinian knives are generally pretty smooth to open. So I assume my opinion on this topic is highly influenced by my childhood relationship with knives. Anyway, as long as they stay closed while u handle them, I don't really see the point in having such a strong back spring.
While I was thinking about this thing, I opened up my knive drawer and saw something that made me think.
Some 15 years ago, when I was a teenager, my uncle (who's in the army) gave me this slipjoint knife as a gift. No idea of the brand or maker at all. It's a big folder with a couple of "extras" (a smaller blade, a screwdriver and a corkscrew), blade is between 3,5 and 4 inches I guess (I will measure it and take some pics maybe). When I got it, I did like it...it was way bigger than my SAK and sardinian traditional folders, blade thicker and so on...I did like it alot and was so thankful. I thought it would be good as a camping/trekking knife...a bit on the heavy side but I liked it.
I never used it.
Opening it is (still now) a pain. Nail breaking is around the corner. So I kept using my SAK and traditional Pattada folders. The knife is still here, but at the bottom of my drawer...cause for some "not too mysterious reason" I came to hate it.
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In my opinion a knife that one dreads opening is worthless (as a knife).
I don't mind firm springs but I draw the line at those I consider either unsafe or so unpleasant to deploy that merely opening it a handful of times is enough to cause discomfort.
Such knives don't remain in my possession for long.
I don't mind firm springs but I draw the line at those I consider either unsafe or so unpleasant to deploy that merely opening it a handful of times is enough to cause discomfort.
Such knives don't remain in my possession for long.
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My sense of "spring strength" was developed from using Camillus-made Buck knives and SAK's. Both are firm, yet not hard to open. I can open one, even when my nails have been softened by washing the dinner dishes. The GEC's I've handled are much harder than that, and I wish they weren't.
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Pocket knife springs are painfully complex beasts to design.
Mass production tolerances make things geometrically worse.
That said, it is a fine line between pleasure & pain.
Mass production tolerances make things geometrically worse.
That said, it is a fine line between pleasure & pain.
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Returned a GEC slimline trapper, just too hard to open. Even my hubby thought it was a little tough to open.
OR
The ones with good but lighter snap got all used up by their owners and only the nailbreakers that people didnt use that much got left for the afterworld? And the realy hard ones got put into the sockdrawer and therefore is mint even though they can be 50 or 100 years old.
Bosse
Bosse, I think you may have hoit the nail right on the head!:thumbup:
Carl.
There are knives out there that are designed for people who bite their nails. A gravity operated cylindrical toggle holds the blade in the handle. If you point the tip at the ceiling and press the blade into the handle, the toggle falls and releases the blade. The blade pops out far enough to grasp ( there is no nail nick in the blade). To close the knife, you fold the blade into the handle and point the tip at the floor. A slight squeeze of the blade into the handle allows the toggle bar to drop into the bottle opener-shaped slot in the blade and the knife is locked shut.
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While I like my pulls on the heavy side, I have a comfort limit. For those familiar with Ray Cover's customs, that about my limit:thumbup:
The Case 6308 whittler is one of my favorite factory patterns, but I bet I've handled well over a 100 from the '60's and 70's and maybe one in 10 is acceptably easy enough to open...they are notorious nail breakers
Funny you should mention the Ray Cover. Just 2 or 3 days ago, I dug one out of storage that I'd bought a few years ago. It's a Ray Cover trapper (2 blades) in D2. Red jigged bone handles. Beautiful knife. When I went to open it up (forget which blade), I actually chipped my thumbnail. I think that's the first time I've done that. The knife had been stashed away for a while, and I think it'd benefit with a little re-lube. Don't recall it being that tight when I bought it.
Edit:
One thing that makes the Ray Cover folders a little more challenging, the nail nicks are pretty minimal on 'em. Very elegant looking, but tough to get a lot of purchase on it.
I also have to agree on the SAK... I just picked up a brand new Victorinox recruit using a coupon I had at the hardware store, and it's the best $6 I've ever spent. What a knife! I used to have one when I was a kid, but I didn't realize just how good they were for the money at the time.
The pull is PERFECT for me. Just light enough to come out easily, but just heavy enough to be safe to use. It has a really satisfying, clean snap to it when opening and closing. Add to that the lightweight liners and scales, plus the low cost, and you've got yourself one hard to beat EDC.
That's a bummer, I'm thinking about getting one of those. I have a Ben Hogan, and it's a bit hard to open, but I think that is a good thing on a long knife, it needs the extra spring to keep the longer blade stable.
The pull is PERFECT for me. Just light enough to come out easily, but just heavy enough to be safe to use. It has a really satisfying, clean snap to it when opening and closing. Add to that the lightweight liners and scales, plus the low cost, and you've got yourself one hard to beat EDC.
That's a bummer, I'm thinking about getting one of those. I have a Ben Hogan, and it's a bit hard to open, but I think that is a good thing on a long knife, it needs the extra spring to keep the longer blade stable.
Campbellclanman
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I have the same question about folders-be them slippies, lockbacks-whatever...I just do not see why you should have to fight like hell to open a knife...I love my knives...I really love handling them, and using them, all-be-it relatively light usage-that doesn't matter because using a knife is a personal thing.
For me I grade a knife at 1.... = the blade just about falls out by its self when turned upside down, to 10...where you basically need pliers to open it..why..WHY would you want any knife over 7 in this scale??... Im sorry to get vocal on this ..but it pi*#es me off that I have to stop and use everything I have to open a knife-with out slipping and slicing the hell out of myself, Like so many others here, I believe using a knife should be a pleasure, and not a task... I have a Case Whittler that is a stunner-I just dont use it because of this opening problem, I also have a Case early 60's knife with a pen blade that puts you to the test, also, out of a batch of knives my partner gave me - one was a Solingen Jack with horn scales-I resurrected it from rusts grip..but man-o-man...just try and open that knife... not because of the rust, but the strength of the springs!!
I have just opened a package and pulled out my A.G.Russell dogs leg, now this BIG beautiful knife would open both blades ( no half stops) at a rating at 4, its just perfect.
For me I grade a knife at 1.... = the blade just about falls out by its self when turned upside down, to 10...where you basically need pliers to open it..why..WHY would you want any knife over 7 in this scale??... Im sorry to get vocal on this ..but it pi*#es me off that I have to stop and use everything I have to open a knife-with out slipping and slicing the hell out of myself, Like so many others here, I believe using a knife should be a pleasure, and not a task... I have a Case Whittler that is a stunner-I just dont use it because of this opening problem, I also have a Case early 60's knife with a pen blade that puts you to the test, also, out of a batch of knives my partner gave me - one was a Solingen Jack with horn scales-I resurrected it from rusts grip..but man-o-man...just try and open that knife... not because of the rust, but the strength of the springs!!
I have just opened a package and pulled out my A.G.Russell dogs leg, now this BIG beautiful knife would open both blades ( no half stops) at a rating at 4, its just perfect.
This is a great topic. I sent back my GEC #73. I LOVED the style and size of the knife, but as someone else said, I had to put everything else down and concentrate on opening it. I agree with what many others have said, the Vic soldier is where I draw the line for spring tension. My 1970's Case half whittler, and Schrade Walden 34OT Are perfect for me..... prefect snap and no half stops. I wouldn't want GEC to change the way they make their knives though. There are many who like that type of tension, and I'm glad there are knives made to suit them. There's plenty of other companies out there for me to chose from.
KnifeHead
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I have had to adjust the spring load on a couple of knives that I have completed. I occurs to me because i use my hands a LOT sanding, gripping, twisting, etc., my opinion about spring load is going to be quite different than the average schmoe. Spring load is very subjective.
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Great point KnifeHead!
Perhaps a knifemaker needs to remember he is "used" to stronger springs than his customers.
It the past, it was not unknown for me to open over 1000 blades in a day!
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just an observation, ...another difference between the farmer and the pioneer/soldier sak is that the saw rests in front of the blade nail clipper, hiding a part of it, making that catch a bit more difficult.
Still can open it fairly easy, but not as easy as my soldier.
But none of those saks are nail breakers.
Still can open it fairly easy, but not as easy as my soldier.
But none of those saks are nail breakers.
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Kerry,the way you did it on my BP,to me its perfect. It's firm,but by no means unmanageable & I would not change a thing!
I had a 4" BP type knife once,hafted in smooth G-10.It was such a nail buster & the handle was somewhat slick,it was a freakin' accident waiting to happen.
-Vince