Why sebenza?

4 Ranges · May 24, 2005

Cliff:

I used you as my source because I heard it from you on one of your posts here. Haven't studied the Sebenza warranty, so I used you as my source.

DaveH · May 24, 2005

Since this thread is rapidly degenrating into what makes a sebenza worth the money, I'll just help it along.

Any knife that doesn't have a pivot bushing (like a sebenza does) will sooner or later develop blade play and action problems which will require either user or factory servicing. Further. sometimes servicing even by the factory may not fix the problem. IMO that design element alone is quite significant.

Fisher of Men · May 24, 2005

DaveH said:
Since this thread is rapidly degenrating into what makes a sebenza worth the money, I'll just help it along.

Any knife that doesn't have a pivot bushing (like a sebenza does) will sooner or later develop blade play and action problems which will require either user or factory servicing. Further. sometimes servicing even by the factory may not fix the problem. IMO that design element alone is quite significant.

And what happens when the pivot bushing wears out? It needs replaced too. All bushings eventually wear out.

arawn · May 24, 2005

Just to chime in here with my own experience and perspective.

I carried a Benchmade CQC-7 for a year or so before purchasing my Sebenza (a lefty, incidentally). I "traded up" to the Sebenza not due to any failure on the part of the BM, but simply because it was time. My CQC-7 was a hard-working and decent cutting knife. Please note, this was before BM started making AXIS lock folders; otherwise I would have most likely have bought an AXIS lock. I've owned numerous BM knives over the course of years, including a handful of AXIS folders. Other than feeling that some of their nicer knives are a little over-priced, I have nothing but good things to say about BM. My wife carries a little Osbourne AXIS folder in her purse and there's a Nimravus in each of our car emergency kits.

That said, I purchased my Sebenza 7ish years ago and, other than agreeing that the handle is a bit boxy (I'll soon be sending it to Matt Cucchiara for a meltdown and spruce-up) I can not think of a single item I've purchased during the course of my life that has served me better. Well...at least items not made by Heckler & Koch.

It cuts everything that needs cutting, opens well, locks well, and is easy to maintain.

While again it's simply time for a new knife (a Munroe Stormcrow, ETA end of May) I'll always have my Sebenza and I suspect I'll always be able to depend on it.

Good luck with your choice,
B.

Cliff Stamp · May 24, 2005

4Ranges, no problems, just being clear Reeve he has stated this openly, their persepctive was directly brought up the last time this was discussed when Brownshoe made a comment in the reviews forum.

Fisher of Men said:
To me it seems as if the Sebenza is simply a collectors item

It isn't that it makes a poor working knife, it has many of the attributes of a solid user knife, however the same attributes and more even are found in other more inexpensive knives.

As for the collector / status appeal, yeah there is that, the basic design though is user based, there are no speed hole elements, and 8-10 years ago it was one of the better working folders on the market.

-Cliff

Quiet Storm · May 24, 2005

DaveH said:
Unfortunately if you just type sebenza into the search, it won't work. You have to add some other term.

Or use the advanced search and select the "Search Titles Only" option.

KeithAM · May 24, 2005

Fisher of Men said:
And what happens when the pivot bushing wears out? It needs replaced too. All bushings eventually wear out.

Then you order a new bushing from CRK and replace it yourself in about 5 minutes using the tool CRK provides with the knife. Result: the pivot is as good as new, and the knife is ready to be handed down to your grandson.

P.S. I don't "collect" Sebbies, I use them. I probably used my small regular Sebbie a dozen times yesterday, when I was off work.

DaveH · May 24, 2005

I've never had a pivot bushing wear out, I've never heard of one wearing out. I suppose they might. Even if they did it will be year down the road.

tortoise · May 24, 2005

WadeF said:
As far as saying Benchmade knives are an 80% knife, what the heck is that supposed to mean?

Well it's not my quote, but I think I understand what's meant. It's the oft discussed "diminishing returns" at work. A Benchmade can be expected to be 80% of the knife that the Sebenza is, that is 80% as good overall. However it is available for about 40% of the Sebenza's pirice.

Looked at from the other way, the Sebenza costs more than twice as much but is not more than twice as good.

Dave's mention of the pivot and FoM's of Rolex go hand in hand too. If you read my earlier post I addressed this. The Seb's bushing allows an extended service life, and the company is geared toward providing such service rather than simply coming out with new models and letting old fall by the wayside. Rolex is the same, elements in the Rolex movement (Breuget overcoils, for one example) make them more robust and accurate than say, the Seiko. Additionally, Rolex will maintain the functionality of their products nearly ad infinitum. -Often to the chagrin of classic watch owners, as Rolex service prefers to perform "upgrades" to older pieces to bring them into current spec. But is a Rolex cal. 3135 ten times the movement of a Seiko cal. 7S26? Certainly not.

In the knife world, sometimes Spyderco, for instance, will tell an ELU to retire a knife. It's difficult to imagine Chris Reeve doing this. Greater initial expense often leads people to be willing to spend more in upkeep. I read an article once about BMW motorcycles. It focused on how many old BMWs you see out on the roads (also applies to Harley Davidson.) The author questioned the common wisdom that the large number of high-mileage bikes seen is necessarily related to a higher quality of bike. He offered that it might be the high initial price of purchae that led owners to take better care of their bikes throughout their service lives. Additionally, the perceived value of these bikes often causes people to repair/rebuild/re-animate basket cases. Meanwhile Japanese manufacturers offer lower priced products that are accordingly seen as disposable. When a seven thousand dollar bike starts to show wear, its owner may simply discard it and replace it with a new model. Somebody buys it secondhand as a learner or beater, neglects it further, and ultimately the bike becomes unserviceable. However, the owner who has spent two, three or four times that on a BMW/HD is willing to support his investment with additional monies. Someone who buys one of these bikes secondhand often feels that he has something of value and is unlikely to allow it to deteriorate to the point of scrap.

Anyway, as always everyone has to answer for themselves if any of this is worth the price.

DaveH · May 24, 2005

tortoise, yes that is what I was trying to say.

You make a good point about high mileage bikes. I have bought many "used" sebenzas, some third or more "hand". The only issues has either been cosmetic or needs sharpening.

tom mayo · May 24, 2005

spend your money on what you like, a lot of people have kept Chris in business for good reason!!!!

DaveH · May 24, 2005

Fisher of Men · May 24, 2005

Your Second Link is bad.

Edit: Link Fixed.

Cliff Stamp · May 24, 2005

tortoise said:
...sometimes Spyderco, for instance, will tell an ELU to retire a knife.

Yes, and often times you will see them with the blades subjected to such heavy wear that for example the serrations are wore off, the same would be done with a Sebenza unless you got the blade replaced and it would be cheaper on many Spyderco models to actually buy a new knife. It isn't as if Reeve would replace the knife for free.

This retiring is also after many years of extended use, it isn't like people are doing it every weak, and the cost of those knives are a fraction of the Sebenza, and people are not retiring the high end G10 models very often, this is usually an issue for the FRN ones which cost 1/10 of a Sebenza, compare it to the lifetime of the high end Spyderco's.

-Cliff

tortoise · May 24, 2005

Yes Cliff, exactly my point.

When a buyer spends so much on a knife as a Sebenza, if he wore out the blade he would likely have it replaced, a service CRK provides for a price. And even if the owner balked at the cost of the repair, he could easily sell the knife to another who would willingly bear the expense because of the perceived bargain he was getting by buying the fixer-upper knife.

I'm not saying this is right, wrong or indifferent, It just is.

It then creates, as with the above discussed motorcycles and watches, the perception of durability and longevity. -And really, just writing it off as a "perception" may not be fair, since although you have to pay for it, if you're willing you can keep your Sebenza/R35/knucklehead/Explorer going forever. Conversely, no matter how I might love my Cricket it can be used up.

This doesn't make the Cricket bad, or certainly is no indictment of Spyderco. I could also be accused of being on Sal's payroll with the allegiance and prefernce I show. It's just a different philosophy with the accompanying difference of cost. In this vein, I accept that at some point I will have to replace my beloved PE Military. I do worry that the new S30V model is ever-so-slightly thicker than my current CPM 440V and I might not love it quite as much. Now if I could just pay to have an S30V blade put in mine when the time comes, pay to have parts replaced, pay to have it brought back to factory specs, but keep my knife going forever, that would be well worth the price to me.

That ability is part of what one pays for when one opts to spend for the Sebenza or the Rolex or the BMW.

MadDaddy · May 24, 2005

Cliff,

Sometimes you sound as if a certain company or knife maker is paying you to drone on and tirelessly defend/support them or attack another ....enough already...

To the topic:
As far as folders go, I own Spyderco's and a Large Sebenza (trying to decide on a BM) I like them all, and they rotate thru my EDC and all are users, and perfom pretty much the same IMO, as long as the edge is maintained. Materials and construction only go so far, after that it's personal preference plain and simple. I think it's clear by now that over all, one person may be comfortable spending the extra money on a certian knife and others may be perfectly happy with another knife that is less expensive but just as capable, even if not for the long haul.

To each his own, who am I to tell anyone that the knife they own and love is crap because it cost X amount of money but I can still break it if I try hard enough.

WadeF · May 24, 2005

These topics are always fun to read, but I often find them just plain silly.

No offense to anyone here.

This is how I look at it. The Sebenza is a solid knife, a quality piece, and I own one. However, to say I should get a Sebenza over a BM because the Sebenza will out last the Benchmade is silly. If I like the functionality of a Benchmade knife with the AXIS lock over a Sebenza I'd rather buy 4 or 5 Benchmade's over my lifetime (although from what I've seen there is nothing that makes me think my Benchmade AXIS locks won't last a life time) than be stuck with 1 Sebenza that doesn't perform as well as my Benchmade Axis locks.

I would carry the Sebenza over say my BM710 or Dough Ritter Grip just for the novelty. However, I would rather take out the Ritter Grip because I prefer the operation of it, but that's just me.

The Sebenza certainly isn't the answer for everyone. You can't just say it's the perfect knife and superior to any other knife. It all depends on what the user expects out of their knife.

Boink · May 24, 2005

Don't you men do any work during the day? (heh heh, here I am during work)

Who here votes affirmative to making stickies of the following subjects:
Strider threads vs "X" threads; Sebenza versus "X" threads and Sebenza versus Strider threads. Each thread will contain mandatory participation by certain members who've weighed in on all the above threads in the past. We could optionally create a FAQ, but it's more closely associated with FA (Frequent Arguments).

DaveH · May 24, 2005

I would vote for that.

allenC · May 24, 2005

There are some folks who think the Sebenza is the best production folder that money can buy--and you can just forget about ever changing their minds.

Others, like myself, think that they are very nice knives but certainly not "the best".
I would'nt trade my Spyderco G-10 Police for a brand new Sebenza and I only paid $140.00 for the Police (and I could have got one cheaper if I had looked around more).

You see, no matter how nice Mr. Reeves makes the Sebenza, it's still a frame-lock, and frame-locks have some of the same shortcomings that liner-locks have.

Now if he made a lock-back Sebenza I might consider one.

Allen.