Why so stainless?

[lemonfish]

I think the main reason is because it is more durable and rust resistant

 

[Rapt_up]

I just read the back and forth about testing, and it really put the problem of comparing steels in greater perspective:

You can't really make two knives in two different steels with the same geometry and cut only one thing. The only conclusion you reach is that those steels performed differently when made the same way and tested on that one thing.

There may well be an ideal combination of heat treat, edge geometry, hardness and cutting task for every alloy. That alloy could certainly perform well at other tasks, hardnesses, etc - but until you've determined that W2 (say) really excels when carving hardwoods at a 23 degree edge and 60 Rc, you aren't going to be able to begin making any sort of real comparisons, because you don't even know what else acts in a similar manner.

I'm certain I'm preaching to the choir, but all the reading I've done recently just about D2 leaves me deflated. Experts seem to have opinions that are polar opposites about tempering temps. How can this kind of thing still be such a source of debate for a steel that predates WWII????

A poster on a recent thread felt that CPM 154 and 154CM were "the same thing", not just because they were the same alloy, but because his CATRA tests showed they acted the same. How did that happen????

I would love to see knife cutting tasks (rather than die or slicer tasks) broken down by the demands they place on edges, because knives do not just slice. I would like to see heat treatment results expressed in graphs that depict edge stability, hardness, toughness and wear resistance in such a way that their confluences and discontinuities become obvious. And I would like to ideal knife heat treatments replace tool and die heat treatments on spec sheets intended for cutlery.

Until a little consistency starts to eek its way into knife metallurgy, these kind of discussions will continue to be witchcraft. The more I read, the more convinced I am that heat treating and alloying is still a relatively crude and haphazard process where the final results for two knives of the same alloy and design might behave so differently that they might as well have been completely different alloys.

I don't know whether the problem is people not sharing what they learn, or other people not believing them because they don't have the skill to repeat results, or alloy lots varying too much to control heat treat to the right degree, but I would not be shocked to find out that someone's W2 knife did actually perform the most cutting task better than any other alloy. We don't seem to understand the full scope of the question to come up with entirely satisfactory answers.

Well I think the real issue here is many pronged. 1) Steel industry is not focused on knife makers and squeezing the last ounce of performance form a steel, when most knife users are happy with barely functional knives, that get made by the 1000's and sold at Walmart. 2) many Custom knife makers don't have the knowledge or the will to learn the real science behind heat treatment at the level required to get the most out of advanced alloys. They want a simple recipe that they can follow easily and cheaply in equipment they already have, or can make cheaply. 3)The one's that do figure out the secrets will often keep them to themselves like secret guild knowledge only passed down to the senior apprentice in the weeks before the death of the master...4) Even knife afficionados have so many misconceptions about steels and heat treat and geometry and sharpening, etc, etc. that they will buy all sorts of marketing hype, and drive sales that are not strictly performance driven.

So is it any wonder that there are no simple answers, and even when there are, half the people out there won't believe them. They think having a differing opinion invalidates facts. SO they refuse to hear them even when presented with them.

 

[Ankerson]

Well I think the real issue here is many pronged. 1) Steel industry is not focused on knife makers and squeezing the last ounce of performance form a steel, when most knife users are happy with barely functional knives, that get made by the 1000's and sold at Walmart. 2) many Custom knife makers don't have the knowledge or the will to learn the real science behind heat treatment at the level required to get the most out of advanced alloys. They want a simple recipe that they can follow easily and cheaply in equipment they already have, or can make cheaply. 3)The one's that do figure out the secrets will often keep them to themselves like secret guild knowledge only passed down to the senior apprentice in the weeks before the death of the master...4) Even knife afficionados have so many misconceptions about steels and heat treat and geometry and sharpening, etc, etc. that they will buy all sorts of marketing hype, and drive sales that are not strictly performance driven.

So is it any wonder that there are no simple answers, and even when there are, half the people out there won't believe them. They think having a differing opinion invalidates facts. SO they refuse to hear them even when presented with them.

There aren't really any secrets persay, more certain protocols that they figured out over decades of heat treating and testing, and no they aren't just going to give out that information that they developed over decades.

Getting the right equipment that is really needed and really putting in the time and money to figure out those secrets isn't something many will do for various reasons.

Good equipment isn't cheap, doing the actual testing and experimenting isn't cheap either, both take TIME away from making the knives that are going out the door.

There aren't any shortcuts either.

 

[midnight flyer]

Wow...

Rapt_up and Ankerson, GREAT posts. This thread could almost stop right here.

Just my 0.02...

I work in a world of craft people in a different discipline, and the same things both of you said about metallurgy and knives apply to my craft/trade as well.

But seriously, good stuff. Nicely said.

Robert

 

[flatface77]

Ive become a fan of nitrogen steels, they act like carbon (even though they have little to no carbon at all) and are almost 100% stainless . Also they have goid toughness, easy of sharpening (I should say less time consuning, s110v isn't hard to sharoen, it just takes a while but some "surgical" stainless steel thats craxy soft might take no time to sharpen but its hard to put a keen ecge on, I think a lot if people use ine like the other but they're 2 different things. Also nitrogen steels take an extremely keen edge like carbon and even better if its a powder metallurgy steel like n77, the sharpest knife I ever sharpened myself, it could be gliding over my arm nit touching skin and sgaving hair like nothing, nevergot any other steel thst sharp (I do need to get me some suoer blue, I hear it takes a very keen edge.). I think steel chouce depends on what the knife is used for, what kind of knife is it and depending on the person. Fir a edc knife, sure you can do 10xx but any decent stain, ess will do so much better. For a fixed blade/bushcraft you can go either way but traditional guts will go carbon. For a chopper its carbon or any low chromium steel(cpm 3v, 4v, cpm m4, pd1, cruwear and steels in that nature)all the way. So as always, theres no"im getting a knife and what steel should I get?" or "which is better, steel a, b or c?", it all depends on use, tyoe ofknife and tge arm that will be holding thst knife, well I guess a lil brains cant hurt. Personally most if my favorite steels are stainless, nitrogen or low chromium but I do love my bk9 for chopping and their 1095 cro van is sone great stuff.

I don't think there is enough of a market for it, but from what little I've read, nitrogen based steels would make the carbon/stainless debate moot. Is there, in principle, any reason that this technology (replacing carbon with nitrogen) couldn't give us functionally stainless O1, 5160, 3V, ect?

I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it in my head & I know the market demand isn't there from the wider steel industry. Still, the concept of replacing the carbon with something that has the same function but doesn't enable rust intrigues me.

 

[collim1]

Field dress a deer and your carbon steel blade will rusted before you get home.

Stainless has a place. I still use carbon steel for my hunting knife but it does require some planning ahead.

 

[ursamajor]

Carbon, high or low in fixed blades is the way to go!

I don't agree with this 100%. I like a nice stainless in smaller fixed blades. Specifically hunting knives. My favorite currently is a Cold Steel Master Hunter in Sam Mai III. I don't want to have to have any synthetic or petroleum based oil on a blade that I am processing something that me or my family is going to eat-so that means my only option is to use mineral oil-I'll pass. And I don't want to resheath my blade when there is blood and bits o critter on the blade, contaminating the inside of my sheath-so I would rather throw it in the ice chest, or a bucket of water, and deal with it when I get home. Same if I am fishing, and decide to clean and scale my fish before hiking back in-just wash it off in the river, and shake it dry.

 

[Ankerson]

Field dress a deer and your carbon steel blade will rusted before you get home.

Stainless has a place. I still use carbon steel for my hunting knife but it does require some planning ahead.

If the blade has a patina on it or you coat it with something before going out it isn't all that bad depending on the actual steel.

But it's best to get all of the blood off the blade as soon as possible, same with stainless too.

 

[AntDog]

I'd love to see modern tacticals in carbon steel. I'd love a big, tough folder with an A2 tool steel blade. And I'm not talking about some obscure company or anything. It would be nice to see some heavy hitters do this.

 

[collim1]

If the blade has a patina on it or you coat it with something before going out it isn't all that bad depending on the actual steel.

But it's best to get all of the blood off the blade as soon as possible, same with stainless too.

I do have a patina in the blade and I always try to wipe the blade off with some pine straw to get as much blood off it as possible. The biggest problem is the fat doesn't wipe off the blade easily, especially when it's cold outside.

The knife I prefer for hunting is a Mora Companion in carbon steel, I have no plans of replacing it, but it does corrode pretty easily.

 

[Sidehill Gouger]

I'd love to see modern tacticals in carbon steel. I'd love a big, tough folder with an A2 tool steel blade. And I'm not talking about some obscure company or anything. It would be nice to see some heavy hitters do this.

Yet many people on this forum chastise TOPS for using 1095 in most of their tacticals. "Why don't they use a real state of the art steel etc" State of the art almost always means stainless. The list of truly new carbon steels is pretty short. Most have been in use for decades if not longer.

 

[Gary W. Graley]

Corrosion is, for me, a major factor, add to that if you use it on food you can get some metal taste transferred, not a very handy thing.

I use to own a LOT of traditional folders in 1095 and have sold off every one, just won't go that route any more. Last one I had was a Case in CV blade, sliced up some pineapple at work with it, of course cut great, I knew I had to wipe it down quickly to prevent a patina growing, another issue for me, but shortly after you could see where it was on the blade, but the kicker was the edge, it went away, while it was originally very sharp, it was degraded by the acidity from the fruit, and had to be sharpened up to even cut note book paper.

Now, you'll probably remember seeing some 'old' knives from years long gone and was surprised at how much metal was removed, some almost back to the spine of the blade? That was from the need to keep sharpening those blades, corrosion even from ambient air can degrade the edge, which is the thinnest portion exposed on the knife so it will show that very quickly. If grandpa had some newer steel that he didn't have to keep sharpening, I think he'd have been a much happier camper

So for me, maybe I'm just fortunate that I can sharpen most blades pretty easily, comes from practice. But I'm not going to be changing my direction of steel choice. There are the 'Super Steels' but even the lowly Sanvik 12c27 or the razor blade steel which I have in one of my knives, 13c26 they sharpen up great, keep a good edge and for the most part will perform those every day tasks just fine, without constant attention to them or continuous sharpening being needed.

No more carbon blades for me, I know a lot of people still love them, I'm just not convinced of their reasons for persuing it other than nostalgia

G2

 

[jpm2]

A coworker of mine has a lot of cows, been around and worked them all his life. He says the calves he's cut with stainless blades take much longer to heal than the ones cut with non stainless.
Based on my experience with stainless, our theory on this is the stainless edged knives are chipping during the cut, and leaving small bits of metal in the wound.

 

[jpm2]

A coworker of mine has a lot of cows, been around and worked them all his life. He says the calves he's cut with stainless blades take much longer to heal than the ones cut with non stainless.
Based on my experience with stainless, our theory on this is the stainless edged knives are chipping during the cut, and leaving small bits of metal in the wound.

After reading this thread, The problem could have been the stainless edges wouldn't sharpen to as fine an edge as the non stainless ones, and causing more trauma during the cut.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I'd love to see modern tacticals in carbon steel. I'd love a big, tough folder with an A2 tool steel blade. And I'm not talking about some obscure company or anything. It would be nice to see some heavy hitters do this.

Way late to the party on this, but if you can legally carry an auto check out the Koenig Atrox for a big, beefy A2 blade.