Why so stainless?

[james terrio]

It adds up... Quick.

Heck yeah it does. Even if I could afford to volunteer a couple hundred hours of shop-time to such an ambitious project (and my wife didn't kill me for doing it ), you know how many grinding belts I'd go through? Those ain't free.

Good comp knives start out around $400 on the low end, retail, if you can even find a factory-made one anymore... handmade, fuggetaboutit... multiply that by 9 or a dozen or more knives and add in the time for testing/documentation/shooting/editing videos...

It would require corporate sponsorship by knife factories, steel vendors, the HT firm, belt/handle material providers, perhaps a magazine or big show-promoter, or just some very wealthy benefactor who thinks it's a neat idea.... it's a really fun fantasy and I'd love to be a part of it, but... I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Ankerson]

To be honest I never want to blame you Ankerson, in fact I always respect your effort. Many years ago I even have bought some knives base on your steel ranking.

But time goes and I have been using/testing by myself, have met many knife maker and also a chemical engineer who developed the heat treat recipe for tool industrial. We often drink together and have a conversation about metallurgy, have test how simple alloy steel would fall against the more complicated one. The result are totally different from your ranking.

Since we both no one have a video recording while we doing the test so our word carry the same weight. Anyone can say any steel can go XX cut on sisal robe before it dull but it wouldn't has any value with out a video.. I think of doing a straight video of carbon steel vs high carbide one soon.

This Russian guy also do the same testing as you Ankerson but with a straight video. I doubt that high carbide are always hold en edge longer? seems not likely judge from this guy quoteworthy test.

I am not the only one using the method that I use and we check our work against each other to keep things honest.

I don't cut until dull as you know, I stop at 20 LBS of down force so the results are what they end up being in the end.

Perfect, NOPE... Never said that it was.

But it's consistent enough for our purposes in the end as a guide.

 

[Ankerson]

Heck yeah it does. Even if I could afford to volunteer a couple hundred hours of shop-time to such an ambitious project (and my wife didn't kill me for doing it ), you know how many grinding belts I'd go through? Those ain't free.

Good comp knives start out around $400 on the low end, retail, if you can even find a factory-made one anymore... handmade, fuggetaboutit... multiply that by 9 or a dozen or more knives and add in the time for testing/documentation/shooting/editing videos...

It would require corporate sponsorship by knife factories, steel vendors, the HT firm, belt/handle material providers, perhaps a magazine or big show-promoter, or just some very wealthy benefactor who thinks it's a neat idea.... it's a really fun fantasy and I'd love to be a part of it, but... I'm not holding my breath.

And people wonder why I Stick to what I am doing and won't move from it...

I test them as they come in, I don't buy knives anymore, I stopped doing that awhile back for obvious reasons.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Now say something like that to Don Hanson or Nick Wheeler, Hey my 440c with Bos heat treat are close in performance to your W2!!??? What a BS statement there...

I have a bunch of friend who are knife maker and some of them considered to be the best maker in my country, so many time we have tried and tested high alloy steel like S30V or ELMAX against W1 or 52100 on cutting sisal robe, 2x4 and etc. (my friend is the host of annual cutting competition so we have plenty of 2x4 and robe) and from time to time testing have shown that high alloy PM steel doesn't hold an edge any longer than low alloy carbon steel...

Sometime I very doubt on your metallurgy knowledge, you seems to be very bias toward steel high carbide steel and also keep saying something not so smart like "optimal hardness" or "steel X at 2HRC higher will be the difference animal.." really? Do you know that there are million way to heat treat, for example CPM154 to any hardness from 5X-6Xrc. The final hardness of any steel be desided by austenitizing temp, soak time, quench rate, tempering, subzero/cryo or even the preparation on some kind of steel or normalizing could be crucial factor.

Two steel with the same amount of carbon, one with higher alloy/carbide doesn't mean it will hold an edge longer, there are way toooo many factor involve. When someone said something obtuse like higher carbide = better edge holding always make me amuse...

Jamesh,
In your original post I believe you said you find that 1090 has better edge retention than CPM-S30V? I am referring to that post and this other one about at the same time, if that's alright with you?

No way no how, Pal! I will put my Bos HTed 440C knives up against any 10XX series steel knife with the exact same grind as one of my culinary knives. I started making knives with 1095 and along with being able to watch is rust as I worked on it, " I live by the ocean" The steel didn't have as good of edge retention as even 440C.

Some Carbon steels can do better in a charpy/impact usage, I believe the OP's complaint was edge retention? When I want to make a sharpen pry bar chopper, A carbon steel may just fit the bill.

As far as Nick and Don? I've never built any blades out of W2 so no comment there.

If he was alive today, The late Bob Loveless would curse a blue streak here. He used inferior Stainless steel for his drop point hunters?
Yeah Right! LOL.

Anyone that lives near me wants to make a 10xx culinary knife and I'l have one of my Bos THed 440C . We can work out the details of thickness, grind, length, Height etc..

We can have a slice, dice & chop off and see who has to go to the stones first? Any takers?

 

[Ankerson]

Jamesh,
In your original post I believe you said you find that 1090 has better edge retention than CPM-S30V? I am referring to that post and this other one about at the same time, if that's alright with you?

No way no how, Pal! I will put my Bos HTed 440C knives up against any 10XX series steel knife with the exact same grind as one of my culinary knives. I started making knives with 1095 and along with being able to watch is rust as I worked on it, " I live by the ocean" The steel didn't have as good of edge retention as even 440C.

Some Carbon steels can do better in a charpy/impact usage, I believe the OP's complaint was edge retention? When I want to make a sharpen pry bar chopper, A carbon steel may just fit the bill.

As far as Nick and Don? I've never built any blades out of W2 so no comment there.

If he was alive today, The late Bob Loveless would curse a blue streak here. He used inferior Stainless steel for his drop point hunters?
Yeah Right! LOL.

Anyone that lives near me wants to make a 10xx culinary knife and I'l have one of my Bos THed 440C . We can work out the details of thickness, grind, length, Height etc..

We can have a slice, dice & chop off and see who has to go to the stones first? Any takers?

I wanna watch.

I already have a very good idea of what's gonna happen though.

I will be at Blade this year and I will have a few hundred FT of rope with me and some wood to cut on for a backing.

 

[james terrio]

I think of doing a straight video of carbon steel vs high carbide one soon.

Please do. A one-on-one test of two knives is something even I could afford. Of course, we'd both have to find an independent person to do the testing/video. It's way too easy to "fudge" a video test to get the results you want. All you have to do is not sharpen them the same to begin with.

I'm out as a tester, because obviously people would assume I'd want to make my knives look as good as possible. You and your friends are out as testers because you're "biased" in favor of low-alloy steels, and naturally want to make your knives look good. Ankerson's out as a tester, because clearly he's "biased" in favor of higher-alloy steels... unless of course the knives are finished the same and unmarked except for a random serial number that he can't decipher, so he (or any other tester) wouldn't know beforehand which knife was which steel.

 

[shqxk]

Jamesh,
In your original post I believe you said you find that 1090 has better edge retention than CPM-S30V? I am referring to that post and this other one about at the same time, if that's alright with you?

No way no how, Pal! I will put my Bos HTed 440C knives up against any 10XX series steel knife with the exact same grind as one of my culinary knives. I started making knives with 1095 and along with being able to watch is rust as I worked on it, " I live by the ocean" The steel didn't have as good of edge retention as even 440C.

Some Carbon steels can do better in a charpy/impact usage, I believe the OP's complaint was edge retention? When I want to make a sharpen pry bar chopper, A carbon steel may just fit the bill.

As far as Nick and Don? I've never built any blades out of W2 so no comment there.

If he was alive today, The late Bob Loveless would curse a blue streak here. He used inferior Stainless steel for his drop point hunters?
Yeah Right! LOL.

Anyone that lives near me wants to make a 10xx culinary knife and I'l have one of my Bos THed 440C . We can work out the details of thickness, grind, length, Height etc..

We can have a slice, dice & chop off and see who has to go to the stones first? Any takers?

Since I live in Thailand and wouldn't be able to take your challenge. I have a knife maker friend who can do 52100 or W2 against production S30V ie. Spyderco Military or some Benchmade.

I have tried this before probably 3 times along with my friend, the result is 52100 out cut Spyderco's S30V by significant margin in cutting 0.5" sisal robe.
Next time I will do a straight video when doing the same test.

 

[155440]

Interesting since I have posted a number of times over the years for ANYONE to send me one of those miracle knives to test.....

So far NOBODY has sent me one to compare so everyone can see how they do compared to what's already posted.

So.......

No takers so far..... None, ZERO, Zippo, NANNA......

So if you want to look at someone or blame someone don't look at me....

I don't think either of the makers mentioned advertise their blades as miracle knives. Were you referring to the purchasers perception of said knives? Regardless I really would like to see how some custom makers knives hold up in your testing gauntlet. I would enjoy seeing how one of Big Chris's knives in 3v compares to production fixed blades.

Edit: @ ankerson, could you educate me on the differences in properties between w2 and 1095? It came up in the discussion and I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Ankerson]

Please do. A one-on-one test of two knives is something even I could afford. Of course, we'd both have to find an independent person to do the testing/video. It's way too easy to "fudge" a video test to get the results you want. All you have to do is not sharpen them the same to begin with.

I'm out as a tester, because obviously people would assume I'd want to make my knives look as good as possible. You and your friends are out as testers because you're "biased" in favor of low-alloy steels, and naturally want to make your knives look good. Ankerson's out as a tester, because clearly he's "biased" in favor of higher-alloy steels... unless of course the knives are finished the same and unmarked except for a random serial number that he can't decipher, so he (or any other tester) wouldn't know beforehand which knife was which steel.

I would be willing to do a blind test, the actual cutting, send the knives and some bucks for rope, rope isn't free.

The knives would have to be the same geometry as you said as close as possible.

Other than that nope, blind only to be completely fair.

 

[Ankerson]

I don't think either of the makers mentioned advertise their blades as miracle knives. Were you referring to the purchasers perception of said knives? Regardless I really would like to see how some custom makers knives hold up in your testing gauntlet. I would enjoy seeing how one of Big Chris's knives in 3v compares to production fixed blades.

I have a few of Chris's knives in the rankings as some others.

He just hasn't got around to sending me any 3V yet.

 

[shqxk]

Please do. A one-on-one test of two knives is something even I could afford. Of course, we'd both have to find an independent person to do the testing/video. It's way too easy to "fudge" a video test to get the results you want. All you have to do is not sharpen them the same to begin with.

I'm out as a tester, because obviously people would assume I'd want to make my knives look as good as possible. You and your friends are out as testers because you're "biased" in favor of low-alloy steels, and naturally want to make your knives look good. Ankerson's out as a tester, because clearly he's "biased" in favor of higher-alloy steels... unless of course the knives are finished the same and unmarked except for a random serial number that he can't decipher, so he (or any other tester) wouldn't know beforehand which knife was which steel.

Why I need to be bias toward any steel? I'm just a steel snob who love to sees which one perform best at which task.
If I haven't tested myself before I would still talk around that S30V hold an edge better than any carbon like what Ankerson would said. I have far more knives in CPM steel than a carbon one. I wouldn't risk to devalue my stuff just because of having an argument seriously

Its also impossible for me to have an exact same knife in PM steel because there are no CPM steel being sold here and even if I can find one there would be an issue on the cost of heat treat resource that include cryogenic process.

 

[Ankerson]

Why I need to be bias toward any steel? I'm just a steel snob who love to sees which one perform best at which task.
If I haven't tested myself before I would still talk around that S30V hold an edge better than any carbon like what Ankerson would said. I have far more knives in CPM steel than a carbon one. I wouldn't risk to devalue my stuff just because of having an argument seriously

Its also impossible for me to have an exact same knife in PM steel because there are no CPM steel being sold here and even if I can find one there would be an issue on the cost of heat treat resource that include cryogenic process.

S30V compared to 10XX with the same geometry cutting rope.

I doubt it seriously assuming a proper HT for both blades.

Production blades, well they tend to be all over the place so it would have to be customs to be fair.

 

[shqxk]

We don't have 10XX steel here, all we have are SK4 which has the closest properties to 1095, W1, W2, 52100 and CruforgeV.

For now the another high carbide steel I have are
Spyderco Military S30V
ZT0560's Elmax
PM2 CTS-204P
Strider PD1 and MuleTeam K390.

3 years ago if someone said to me like what I said now I would be amusing too.

Carbon steel like SK4 with proper heat treat that included multi-step normalizing, proper austenitizing/soak time/quenching along with snap tempering and lower tempering temp. are not the same as your cheap 1095 production blade.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Since I live in Thailand and wouldn't be able to take your challenge. I have a knife maker friend who can do 52100 or W2 against production S30V ie. Spyderco Military or some Benchmade.

I have tried this before probably 3 times along with my friend, the result is 52100 out cut Spyderco's S30V by significant margin in cutting 0.5" sisal robe.
Next time I will do a straight video when doing the same test.

I don't stay up on what steels Spyderco is using in everyone of their knives but as far as I know they haven't made a Military in 52100 or W2?

Along with many other things, if you don't have to identical knives? The "Significant Margin" Is meaningless.

If you have a larger Parang made out of 52100 of course it would out cut a small pocket knife sized blade. From the testing you are telling me, these tests don't mean anything quite frankly!

Another thing I would like to mention is I like real world testing, meaning a task that people do all of the time. In my 56 years on this planet I have never found it necessary to use a knife to chop through a 2" x 4" piece of wood or to cut a free hanging piece of Sisal rope. eaceful:

 

[Ankerson]

If people look at the latest in my testing thread I ran an AEB-L custom at 60 HRC that was .006" behind the edge.

It did 340 cuts.

Now Compare that to the nearest custom that was the same geometry at .005" behind the edge, CPM Cru-Wear at 63 HRC.

It did 700 cuts.

 

[shqxk]

I don't stay up on what steels Spyderco is using in everyone of their knives but as far as I know they haven't made a Military in 52100 or W2?

Along with many other things, if you don't have to identical knives? The "Significant Margin" Is meaningless.

If you have a larger Parang made out of 52100 of course it would out cut a small pocket knife sized blade. From the testing you are telling me, these tests don't mean anything quite frankly!

Another thing I would like to mention is I like real world testing, meaning a task that people do all of the time. In my 56 years on this planet I have never found it necessary to use a knife to chop through a 2" x 4" piece of wood or to cut a free hanging piece of Sisal rope. eaceful:

Both 52100 and W2 are my friend knives which have quite similar grind/thickness to Spyderco Military.

 

[Ankerson]

We don't have 10XX steel here, all we have are SK4 which has the closest properties to 1095, W1, W2, 52100 and CruforgeV.

For now the another high carbide steel I have are
Spyderco Military S30V
ZT0560's Elmax
PM2 CTS-204P
Strider PD1 and MuleTeam K390.

3 years ago if someone said to me like what I said now I would be amusing too.

Carbon steel like SK4 with proper heat treat that included multi-step normalizing, proper austenitizing/soak time/quenching along with snap tempering and lower tempering temp. are not the same as your cheap 1095 production blade.

Pretty much why I try and be fair about things and don't compare customs to production knives, they are generally two different animals.

Also why I added the customs into the coarse edge section.

 

[shqxk]

If people look at the latest in my testing thread I ran an AEB-L custom at 60 HRC that was .006" behind the edge.

It did 340 cuts.

Now Compare that to the nearest custom that was the same geometry at .005" behind the edge, CPM Cru-Wear at 63 HRC.

It did 700 cuts.

I know there are some people call AEBL as a stainless carbon steel and even some of them tested that AEBL hold razor edge longer than 52100... but trust me you can't substitute AEBL for any high carbon steel. AEBL has only 0.66% carbon with 13% Cr so it would never be the same as hypereutectoid carbon steel like 52100(Bohler's R100) which has 1%C and 1.5Cr. The structure matrix of both would be totally difference.

 

[Ankerson]

I know there are some people call AEBL as a stainless carbon steel and even some of them tested that AEBL hold razor edge longer than 52100... but trust me you can't substitute AEBL for any high carbon steel. AEBL has only 0.66% carbon with 13% Cr so it would never be the same as hypereutectoid carbon steel like 52100(Bohler's R100) which has 1%C and 1.5Cr. The structure matrix of both would be totally difference.

Never said it did.

But it was the closest thing that I have tested since nobody has sent me any customs in any 10XX steel.

But then most of the ones I have seen have been pry bars in 10XX or way too short to test (Slip Joints), would rather see customs personally.

That way at least they would have a chance to perform.

I tell the makers what is needed, something between 4 and 5 inch blade, thin blade stock, flat ground and under .015" behind the edge, thinner the better.

Nobody wants to see a custom knife that totally sucks and I am sure no maker wants their name attached to one either.

 

[Sunyata]

Personally?


I dont always know what the day holds when I pick my carry pair. Sometimes I get the itch to go fishing and id rather gut fish with stainless than M4.