Why the backlock?

[orthogonal1]

Looks like the liner-lock hasn't been adjust for proper engagement.

As with all locks, proper adjustment is critical for reliability.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Most of these have been mentioned. Thought I'd share some thougths as well.

1. Spyderco created the clips you see on knives. We made the first tip down, left hand, right and left hand and tip up clips. Most of our knives are Tip up or multiple and have been since 1990.

2. Lockbacks are an effective soulution to the locking folder question.
A. They are stonger than most locks in overall strength, especially
linerlocks.
B. We use choils or long "kicks" to help prevent accidental closing.
C. They are more difficult to make well so most other companies avoid
them.
D. They are very reliable for long periods of time, if made properly.
E. They have a strong self close, which we feel is safer from accidentally
opening when unintended.
F. They are very difficult to "flick open" which makes them legal in most
areas.
G. They are ambi.

3. While we have made some "fun" models (Meerkat, bali, etc), our prime directive is consistent, safe, reliable, hi-performance.

sal

 

[marthinus]

@ Andre and Marthinus: howzit! :thumbup:

Howzit cat.

 

[razcob]

Then why did Spyderco make the Military G36 with a liner lock instead of a back lock? A Military knife has to make the list for hard use (War = dirt, sand, abuse, etc.). If Sal would select this knife for someone's son to use in the military, then I believe he, like me and you would genuinely recommend the very best for someone's loved one who may be involved in a life and death situation.

On the BM forums there are soldiers using AXIS, liner lock knives and I haven't read any reports of them getting clogged with sand to the point of malfunction and they say the sand in Iraq finds it way into everything.

 

[yablanowitz]

I seem to recall Sal saying he designed the Military for non-combat (utility) use in a wide range of conditions. This included arctic cold, without having to take off the heavy gloves protecting you from frostbite. That is why it has a larger Spyderhole and why he used a liner lock with a large access cut for the model. As much as I like lockbacks, I have to admit they can be a pain in the butt to unlock while wearing heavy gloves in 20 below zero weather (been there, done that).

As for use in the desert, I'd prefer a backlock unless I was wearing chemical warfare protective gear. I have had sand get between the liner and the scale and jam a liner lock so I couldn't unlock and close it. The Axis lock relies on a pair of tiny omega springs that I don't think I would trust in the sand for long.

 

[Bungwrench]

Lets be perfectly honest here and forgive me if I am repeating what another maker or factory person has already said because I have only read the first post and am off to bed. But here is my take on things regarding lockbacks in general. Backlock folders, mid lock folders or front lock folders are a different league of craftsmanship than a liner lock type. In fact they are a different league than all types for many reasons but mostly because we as makers and any company that wants to can make one without having to worry about IP (intellectual property) or something proprietary being used illegally. When made right to where they are both reliable and strong a good lockback can typically outperform other type locks, are very much more ambidextrous in nature and are very strong in all the right ways and not just in some ideal uses. The mid lockback with opening hole, or thumb studs, contrary to some beliefs, is quite easily closed and opened with one hand also.

If anything Spyderco should be praised for the level of craftsmanship they have achieved with their line of reliable strong mid locking folders as should any maker doing a quality lockback. I said this earlier tonight and I guess its worth repeating. I have 35 plus year old lockback folders that have seen heavy use all their life. Can we say Buck 110 and 112? These are no where near retirement but I have ten year old liner and other type locks that have been retired from being worn out, refreshed, worn out again, refreshed one more time and then rather than remake the lock after the company that made them recommened retiring them I did just as they suggested. They are great for a time don't get me wrong ok. I mean not to put down the integral locking folders because they are a high level of expertise and require some very precise engineering to get right but if liner lock and frame lock folders did not exist it is my guess that over half of all folder makers if not 3/4s of them would not even be in business let alone exist and many companies would not be either in all liklihood. At least the ones that rely on them heavily for sales.

This may cause a stink but I think anyone that thinks it over or has experience with both will agree here. As a maker, when you graduate to lockbacks and slipjoint folders (good ones I mean) and have them down well enough to sell them successfully it is my opinion that you have risen to the class of elite craftsmanship that is not for everyone. Ask anyone that has done both which is more difficult. I realize they may not sell as well but I've always felt a good lockback is superior to everything else. Of course this is from before the Axis and Ball lock but that is another story.

The truth of that is though that neither the ball or axis lock has been out long enough to determine if they rate up there with a lockback yet. But also I don't mention it above because it isn't like we as makers can get permission to start making axis locks ourselves or ball locks to my knowledge. When you get old and still have an axis or ball lock that has seen heavy use that you can give to your grandson as a family hand me down that actually still works I will figure then that they have reached or surpassed the same league as a lockback folder has. Until then I'll watch and see.

STR

Agreed 100%.

Spydie front locks are my favorite.

 

[zenheretic]

Then why did Spyderco make the Military G36 with a liner lock instead of a back lock? A Military knife has to make the list for hard use (War = dirt, sand, abuse, etc.). If Sal would select this knife for someone's son to use in the military, then I believe he, like me and you would genuinely recommend the very best for someone's loved one who may be involved in a life and death situation.

On the BM forums there are soldiers using AXIS, liner lock knives and I haven't read any reports of them getting clogged with sand to the point of malfunction and they say the sand in Iraq finds it way into everything.

Sorry, I'm having trouble following your line of questions. Your initial post questions why Spyderco makes back locks. Actually your question was more like "almost all backlocks". Many folks took the time to answer you, and correct that which was wrong. Even the head man stepped in and answered you.

Now your rebuttal is what about the Military and its liner lock?

What is your objective here?

Or are trying to foment another BM vs. Spyderco debate?

If you like BM, good for you, they obviously make a quality product. There is more than one way to skin a cat, more that one way to lock a folding blade. Sorry the back lock/mid-lock/front-lock is not "fun" for you. Knives are tools. Sharp, dangerous tools.

 

[jarlaxle]

agreed 100%

 

[marthinus]

Sorry, I'm having trouble following your line of questions. Your initial post questions why Spyderco makes back locks. Actually your question was more like "almost all backlocks". Many folks took the time to answer you, and correct that which was wrong. Even the head man stepped in and answered you.

Now your rebuttal is what about the Military and its liner lock?

What is your objective here?

Or are trying to foment another BM vs. Spyderco debate?

If you like BM, good for you, they obviously make a quality product. There is more than one way to skin a cat, more that one way to lock a folding blade. Sorry the back lock/mid-lock/front-lock is not "fun" for you. Knives are tools. Sharp, dangerous tools.

I think to add by zenheretic
and
to indirectly quate Mr. Glesser, you have many knife companies for many people some like the one company because of certain reasons, but at the end they are all good, just different. It depends on what you prefer.

 

[STR]

If you are going to carry a liner lock and especially if you intend to carry one for 'hard use' at least test the lock on occasion to be sure its doing its job securing the blade and certainly do this after getting a new one if you never do it again after that. Contrary to popular belief you can test your lock without spine whacking it.

As many around these forums already know I am not the biggest fan of the liner lock design and especially with it being put into the hard use category but if you just favor that design at least know your knife and its characteristics and behavoir under pressure. I recommend standing with the knife like you see me holding an Emerson liner lock here in the link below. But I also recommend you make sure the lock is getting behind the blade at least to the full thickness of the liner itself before doing this test. Doing it with barely any lock touching to make contact can possibly shear or ding in part of the lock making it either unsightly or worse.

Also, before you read any further, note that all I am saying here in a short summary description is that sometimes the liner lock needs to be watched very closely as part of your routine care and maintainance. Its a good idea to at least do this test when you sharpen or clean your folder just as a habit to get used to doing it whenever you check it for something else.

I've shown this test to people that have carried liner locks for many years thinking they walked on water (as I once did also) only to see their faces when they pushed up on the spine of the blade while securing it just as I'm doing here in the link below only to see the lock slide off the ramp interface and allow the blade to close on their very trusted knife and sometimes surprisingly with very little pressure at all. If the lock even moves at all in this test its not good. You can candy coat it all you want but its not good. A surprising number of knives tested this way fail surprisingly easy. If your lock moves a little but doesn't fail well you have to decide then if its one you want to just use knowing this, or send in to who made it for evaluation or if its just time to retire it. Only you can decide on that. And in fact if it moves or defeats you can decide then and there if you want to continue on or mail it at that point for the professional to look at.

You should do this with your lockback and axis lock folders, and all other 'locking' folders too on occasion as well as check the lock mechanisms for debris, pocket lint, damage and if they have springs check their condition as well unless you can't see them of course. Small spots of corrosion, or thinned weak looking areas on springs should be dealt with by a qualified repair pesron promptly when it comes to securing your fingers..

Now to the test. Hold it so if the lock defeats you won't get cut just as I'm doing here in the link. You owe it to your fingers to know not suspect or blindly trust that the knife was made correctly. You don't have to cock your wrist as I did here. I'm just doing that for my wife to get it in the shot easier. Hold it with both hands and using your strong hand with the blade resting on that index finger knuckle simply push up on the spine of your blade holding the body tight so its steady.

In the event that you just got the knife and its new but are satisfied that the lock is out far enough now to test it and it still fails this test, and if it is a liner lock try this next step, this doesn't do much for frame locks or thicker liner type integrals like it helps the thin ones. At least that is my experience. It sometimes helps a lot on the thinner locking folders to improve the lock up and change how easy it defeats though if you try this but it depends on certain factors of course.

What I do is defeat the lock this way over and over again if the knife fails this test easily the first time and the lock is just barely in for the full thickness of the liner/lock stock that was used to make it. If you need to put gloves on to do this do it. One of two things will occur from doing this in my repeating this procedure. Either the lock up will worsen and since its already bad so what, you have not abused the folder doing this like a spine whack will, you are just testing the lock and doing nothing more to it than what it is supposed to endure from normal use. You want to see if its possibly just a bad lock or one not quite broken in yet and if it is the latter you may be able to save yourself a service call and a wait to get your everyday knife back and perhaps even a few bucks in the process if you can make it better yourself. Now does this mean you have made it invincible? Well, obviously not. Be aware always that the liner lock is well documented to be unpredictable. I think all that really happens here is that the lock moves in to a better or what some call a sweet spot where its far enough in that it becomes very hard to make slide off the interface now. Sometimes all it takes is making the lock slide in more toward the middle of the blade thickness to make it much more reliable.

The other thing that can occur is it more often than not will tighten up the lock up progressively making a flatter spot and wearing in the lock better to mate to the lock interface over time by moving the lock in further behind the blade for you and eventually become very difficult to defeat. This is only true with titanium though and most of the time, like 90% or more the lock gets better not worse from doing this.

Now stay with me here. This works on the ones that the failure was only because of the lock not actually moving out far enough to really secure the blade for you so don't get discouraged if it doesn't help yours. It might not but many times it does. If thats the case this will usually fix it up at least a little more trustworthy for you for normal use. For the ones just flat out bad for contact angle, not enough lock surface area, a rocking lock or any number of other things it is either time for retirement of the knife, or a service call to the maker or manufacturer to have it fixed, or replaced for you. Of course you can look around my forum and see some other solutions that can be done also to salvage a favored pocket knife, like a complete rebuild of the knife to a frame lock style folder with a thicker lock, or from cutting out a section of the lock side overscale to expose the lock to your index finger to help keep it from moving by allowing your finger to physically come into contact with the lock during use.

In my experience this test will break in your lock quicker than waiting for it to happen from use and if its defeating on you from simply not being broken in its about the fastest way I know to make it secure before you can trust it, at least more than you can now. Be sure to snap it open good each time also and don't just gently open the blade. Gentle openings many times can allow the lock to barely engage even after its long been broken in. Make that lock come out behind the blade as it should before you use it for any cutting.

You should notice after this break in that the lock moves in behind the blade better and farther for you now instead of just barely engaging if that was the case before. And in the event that it gets worse well do what you have to do and mail it back to the company. But this works for a lot of folks and I've had pretty good results myself doing it also with both customers knives and with my own. In fact it greatly improved the performance of the very knife in that link. I'd bet it is one of the things the companies do themselves when they get one for a service call because that is where I learned it. If they don't maybe they should try it from now on. Even better maybe they should try this before shipping them out to end line users. Theres a thought!

Lastly, its just my opinion but if its a hard use knife you should make it a fixed blade. Folders have their place and believe me they are my first love but they do one thing fixed blades don't do. They fold.

STR

 

[A.P.F.]

Thanks for the 'heads up' on that linerlock test, Steve. :thumbup:

 

[sidecarr]

when I was in the military , the benchmade was a popular knife , (the emerson cqc7 since none of us could afford a real emerson ) I have several benchmades , I switched to spyderco knives in 94 because they were the only company that made a high quality folder,that was lightweight with a lockback, a pocket clip ,and one hand opening , I saw a linerlock fail and close on a budys fingers , that was all it took for me to switch .

 

[Liveitloud]

I know I haven't been here long and am fairly new to Spyderco. When I have asked questions it was to gain more knowledge. After owning 4 Spyderco's and a Byrd I have no need to ask questions regarding quality, only questions to further my knowledge of a superior product.

Some people post to understand, others post to incite. From where I sit that is exactly what you want to do. If Spyderco isn't your cup of tea, so be it. But all I see here in your thread is pot stirring. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Kaizen1]

Then why did Spyderco make the Military G36 with a liner lock instead of a back lock? A Military knife has to make the list for hard use (War = dirt, sand, abuse, etc.). If Sal would select this knife for someone's son to use in the military, then I believe he, like me and you would genuinely recommend the very best for someone's loved one who may be involved in a life and death situation.

On the BM forums there are soldiers using AXIS, liner lock knives and I haven't read any reports of them getting clogged with sand to the point of malfunction and they say the sand in Iraq finds it way into everything.

I'm not sure if you're getting defensive because no one in this thread seems to be siding with you, but your intent seems suspect to me. Do you really want to know why Spyderco uses lock backs, or are you trying to convince others that it is inferior to some other type or brand? Are you just trying to win an argument?

For your opening statement, I currently have a Mini Manix in my pocket. It is ambi for both tip up and tip down. I've owned a Large Manix and it does the same. In very tight grips with the edge towrds me, the lock back can create some play. If I really want to hold it in that position without worrying, it's pretty easy to adjust my grip so that I don't put pressure on the lock and the play is completely gone. If you want Spyderco quality and just can't seem to like the back lock, they have plenty of other types of locks on knives with S30V.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Then why did Spyderco make the Military G36 with a liner lock instead of a back lock?

The linerlock can be made lighter. Especially in the mid 90's when the knife was first designed. We also made the model with an open back for easy rinsing.

sal

 

[STR]

If the Millie and Para Millie were lockback designs I'd probably have one of the two (probably the Para Mil) in my pocket and it would rank up there as one of my favorite knives because I do love the blade shape of both.

STR

 

[razcob]

Sorry, I'm having trouble following your line of questions. Your initial post questions why Spyderco makes back locks. Actually your question was more like "almost all backlocks". Many folks took the time to answer you, and correct that which was wrong. Even the head man stepped in and answered you.

Now your rebuttal is what about the Military and its liner lock?

What is your objective here?

Or are trying to foment another BM vs. Spyderco debate?

If you like BM, good for you, they obviously make a quality product. There is more than one way to skin a cat, more that one way to lock a folding blade. Sorry the back lock/mid-lock/front-lock is not "fun" for you. Knives are tools. Sharp, dangerous tools.

No arguing here, I much appreciate the posts from fellow forumites. At first, I was asking why Spyderco used the backlock on most of their models with the S30 steel. I was told, that the backlock was a better, stronger lock, etc. Then I mentioned why did Spyderco use a liner lock on the Military, which also has the S30 premium steel, on a knife recommended for a soldier, (wouldn't the best lock be preferable for war, not combat use, but abuse, dirt, mud, which a soldier may face?) Why did Spyderco choose the liner lock over the "better" backlock?

I was asking for help reasoning with my thoughts.

 

[zenheretic]

No arguing here, I much appreciate the posts from fellow forumites. At first, I was asking why Spyderco used the backlock on most of their models with the S30 steel. I was told, that the backlock was a better, stronger lock, etc. Then I mentioned why did Spyderco use a liner lock on the Military, which also has the S30 premium steel, on a knife recommended for a soldier, (wouldn't the best lock be preferable for war, not combat use, but abuse, dirt, mud, which a soldier may face?) Why did Spyderco choose the liner lock over the "better" backlock?

I was asking for help reasoning with my thoughts.

Fair enough. Considering Sal's answer, it turns out to be a great question.
Now we both know, where neither knew before.

 

[So-Lo]

Sorry, I'm having trouble following your line of questions. Your initial post questions why Spyderco makes back locks. Actually your question was more like "almost all backlocks". Many folks took the time to answer you, and correct that which was wrong. Even the head man stepped in and answered you.

Now your rebuttal is what about the Military and its liner lock?

What is your objective here?

Or are trying to foment another BM vs. Spyderco debate?

If you like BM, good for you, they obviously make a quality product. There is more than one way to skin a cat, more that one way to lock a folding blade. Sorry the back lock/mid-lock/front-lock is not "fun" for you. Knives are tools. Sharp, dangerous tools.

My panties are way beyond bunched

 

[chrisbrogden]

Another thumbs-up for the lockback. I've had several liner locks fail on me using the same test described above (merely putting pressure on the blade to close). The theory behind liners is great, but in practice the blade can push the liner out of the way unless it's made perfectly and positioned perfectly. I've had liners fail both on production knives and customs.

I've used two Spydercos with lockbacks, and I have never yet had them fail once, even under heavy abuse. That loud sound as the lock snaps into place is very satisfying.

I'm not trying to say that liners are junk, just that I, personally, have had better experiences with lockbacks.


Chris