Why the Low Prices in the Knifemakers For Sale Forum?

Knives from full-time makers are better than knives from hobbyists like me, and their prices reflect that.
Nope... they can be just a good... nothing special about full-time makers other than the have most likely made more mistakes due to sheer volume. That is where I see the problem. you have a hobbyist making knives on par with a famous full-time maker, yet there is a $2000 difference. There is the obvious explanation of... "He's famous so his knives are worth more." Which can be very true. I just find it tragic when I see folks accepting a loss. There can be many reasons for this... from already having a job that pays the bills to having low self worth to just being in a tight spot ... which makes it even more difficult to analyze.

In the end... I just want everyone to get recognized for their true talent/value and not get pigeon holed by "the man"... What am I even saying, anymore... lol

I'm going to the grocery store to pick up 4lbs of wings for tonight.
 
I am not a knifemaker, I am a knife "buyer". However I am also a business owner in a related field and my views follow some similar lines as some of the posters here...

1) from Alpha KNife Supply
"If you are a knifemaker who is not making enough money, here are a few questions to ask yourself:

1) How much marketing are you doing every day?

2) Are you making knives you like, or what is popular with collectors?

3) How much marketing are you doing every day?

4) Are you willing to make knives you do not like?

5) How much marketing are you doing every day?

6) Are you willing to use materials you do not like?

7) How much marketing are you doing every day?

8) Are you making the best knives possible or are you cutting corners?

9) How much marketing are you doing every day?

10) Are you studying financially successful knifemakers to determine why they are successful?"

These are all important questions to which I add the following thoughts from sdemars,
"The average guy is not going to pay $350.00+ for a knife that he will "actually use".

Most young guys today that know what a knife is and has a use for it are either a hunter, a cop or a soldier. The rest only see it as a digital image in a computer game.

A cop and a soldier see zero value in beautiful. His goal is to see how much abuse a knife can take.

So now we have hunters & collectors left for a market place for beautiful knives. Collectors want a known maker's name on a blade so that he can justify his spending as an investment to self and wife. "

I know that I am a knife user. I started collecting knives I could afford when I was young and they were users, but they were also disappointing because they were cheap crap and when I made more money and got better production knives I was still largely disappointed because they were (in my mind) expensive and not much better. It was then I started looking at custom knives, and trying them out. Many were either too pretty/beautiful for me to be happy using them why have that stunning polish when the first couple times you use it its going to have a a big ol nasty scratch on it? Why pay the maker for hours of time to add something that actually detracts from your willingness to use it ?

As a maker, new or old, you have to know your market. If you want to sell knives. If you just want to make them or be an artist then just do that. The joke about being a successful as an artist only happens after your dead is a bit true. If you are an artist who makes knives then its the rare and special one who makes a name and reputation selling their art while they are still alive. Most will never see the true value in their life.

Most craftsmen and women have to be business people to make a living and that means knowing your market, and marketing to them. Matching the time and costs of the production with pricing points that your customers will bear and let you make a living and stay in business.

I don't want fancy finishes, and highly polished knives. I appreciate them and the beauty they have, but I'm not typically going to shell out more than $200-400 for any knife, because I'm only going to mess them up using them. So I don't want to pay for those things. I do want highly functional knives, I don't care much about grind marks if it cuts, and cuts for a long time. I do care about well designed, functionally shaped knives made from premium steels, and heat treated to maximize their edge retention that do their job superbly and don't require me to be in a state of panic about losing them, or them getting incidental damage in use. (not abuse). Many makers don't service this market. I want a knife that came off the grinder with the same finish the belt left on it, or if that offends you run a bead blaster over it. That's great too. Skill and time invested in the finish very small.

The final aspect of this is that all "new businesses" require many times the hours invested than you will get paid for. It doesn't matter what business you are in, whether its knife making, restauranting, or making firearms accessories don't expect to get well paid for your time for many years to come. I am a professional engineer with a personal license, a business license, professional practice insurance, two degrees, I work a day job, run a private engineering practice, and am a partner in a firearms business. I work a LOT of hours in a week and many of them are for little or no pay (that's why the day job). Because I know that that is what it takes to get a business off the ground. I actively encourage my clients to have design drawings etc, completed by draftsmen, or a friend's teenager in a drafting class or similar, because it makes my engineering services more affordable. And more affordable means more clients, because then they are paying me for my engineering, and not to draw a picture someone else could draw for less cost. I make less off my client, but I'm more likely to get clients in the first place, as word gets out about how sensible and affordable I am to work with.

Yes I still make money, but my hourly wage is pretty darn low, after my costs are covered and my hours are factored in. The reality is there is no industry where you get paid properly for your time if you work for yourself.

All businesses have to understand the value proposition they provide to their prospective clients. And target that as their means to success. You can make a $1,000,000 by selling one million items at $1 profit each (Walmart), or by selling ten items at a $100,000 profit or something in between.
 
Rick, I think I look at this from two perspectives. My knives are great tools, but they have a way to go in fit and finish. The construction is sound, and the materials are well thought out. My geometry now makes really good sense. I think as a hobbyist, makers like myself are a bit different from the guys with a coffee can forge and a pile of scrap steel. I have accumulated a mill, heat treat oven, 2x72 grinder, 9" disc grinder, Rc tester, bandsaw, and a multitude of hand tools to work more efficiently. I can now make a 3 piece EDC in about three hours. My work isn't worth what the people who have established themselves over the years is worth, but the people who use my knives rave about them. I price my work at 66-75% of what "name established" makers sell for. Would you think this is harming the market? I am asking sincerely, as I know my knives aren't worth what yours, Nick's, or Nathan's are, but is my pricing too low?
 
Makes alot of sense on all points. To me part of the "fun" is the research. Who is doing what in what styles or materials. The more you research the more you know what your getting.

I can relate to this. I immensely enjoy learning everything I can. I don't keep track of the time that I spend on it, because I'm too busy being fascinated by it.
 
Guys, as an "outsider", i.e., consumer, I am really learning from this thread and enjoying it. I'm seeing the various forces at play here - you really love what you are doing (or you wouldn't be doing it), you want to (need to) buy groceries and make a house payment, and you have to deal with market forces and a fickled buying public who may drop $300 or $400 on a production "combat" or chopper type, powdercoated fixed blade with G10 but won't pay that much for a handmade custom piece that you put your soul into. It just doesn't look like an easy road from my vantage point. Props to you guys who are doing it full time.
 
I price my work at 66-75% of what "name established" makers sell for. Would you think this is harming the market? I am asking sincerely, as I know my knives aren't worth what yours, Nick's, or Nathan's are, but is my pricing too low?
No... I don't think you are harming the market. I'm more concerned with folks harming/undervaluing themselves(consciously or not), which I believe may have an effect on the market. The fact that you research other makers and try to establish a price point for yourself tells me that you place value on your time and talent.

I don't like the reactions I am getting from a few of the posts I made... simply because I didn't represent myself as well as I should have and my intent was misconstrued. Alas, I don't edit my history... what's said, is said and I'll do my best to clarify.

In my perfect World, everyone gets paid for the worth of their art... nobody has to take a hit... and everyone is famous.:thumbup:
 
The other thing I considered is that some people have offered me more than what I charge for my knives. I have turned it down. I would look like a fool if I charged someone new to custom knives more than what they could get a knife from a senior maker for. I wouldn't get repeat customers then.
 
I am not a knifemaker, I am a knife "buyer". However I am also a business owner in a related field and my views follow some similar lines as some of the posters here...

1) from Alpha KNife Supply
"If you are a knifemaker who is not making enough money, here are a few questions to ask yourself:

1) How much marketing are you doing every day?

2) Are you making knives you like, or what is popular with collectors?

3) How much marketing are you doing every day?

4) Are you willing to make knives you do not like?

5) How much marketing are you doing every day?

6) Are you willing to use materials you do not like?

7) How much marketing are you doing every day?

8) Are you making the best knives possible or are you cutting corners?

9) How much marketing are you doing every day?

10) Are you studying financially successful knifemakers to determine why they are successful?"

These are all important questions to which I add the following thoughts from sdemars,
"The average guy is not going to pay $350.00+ for a knife that he will "actually use".

Most young guys today that know what a knife is and has a use for it are either a hunter, a cop or a soldier. The rest only see it as a digital image in a computer game.

A cop and a soldier see zero value in beautiful. His goal is to see how much abuse a knife can take.

So now we have hunters & collectors left for a market place for beautiful knives. Collectors want a known maker's name on a blade so that he can justify his spending as an investment to self and wife. "

I know that I am a knife user. I started collecting knives I could afford when I was young and they were users, but they were also disappointing because they were cheap crap and when I made more money and got better production knives I was still largely disappointed because they were (in my mind) expensive and not much better. It was then I started looking at custom knives, and trying them out. Many were either too pretty/beautiful for me to be happy using them why have that stunning polish when the first couple times you use it its going to have a a big ol nasty scratch on it? Why pay the maker for hours of time to add something that actually detracts from your willingness to use it ?

As a maker, new or old, you have to know your market. If you want to sell knives. If you just want to make them or be an artist then just do that. The joke about being a successful as an artist only happens after your dead is a bit true. If you are an artist who makes knives then its the rare and special one who makes a name and reputation selling their art while they are still alive. Most will never see the true value in their life.

Most craftsmen and women have to be business people to make a living and that means knowing your market, and marketing to them. Matching the time and costs of the production with pricing points that your customers will bear and let you make a living and stay in business.

I don't want fancy finishes, and highly polished knives. I appreciate them and the beauty they have, but I'm not typically going to shell out more than $200-400 for any knife, because I'm only going to mess them up using them. So I don't want to pay for those things. I do want highly functional knives, I don't care much about grind marks if it cuts, and cuts for a long time. I do care about well designed, functionally shaped knives made from premium steels, and heat treated to maximize their edge retention that do their job superbly and don't require me to be in a state of panic about losing them, or them getting incidental damage in use. (not abuse). Many makers don't service this market. I want a knife that came off the grinder with the same finish the belt left on it, or if that offends you run a bead blaster over it. That's great too. Skill and time invested in the finish very small.

The final aspect of this is that all "new businesses" require many times the hours invested than you will get paid for. It doesn't matter what business you are in, whether its knife making, restauranting, or making firearms accessories don't expect to get well paid for your time for many years to come. I am a professional engineer with a personal license, a business license, professional practice insurance, two degrees, I work a day job, run a private engineering practice, and am a partner in a firearms business. I work a LOT of hours in a week and many of them are for little or no pay (that's why the day job). Because I know that that is what it takes to get a business off the ground. I actively encourage my clients to have design drawings etc, completed by draftsmen, or a friend's teenager in a drafting class or similar, because it makes my engineering services more affordable. And more affordable means more clients, because then they are paying me for my engineering, and not to draw a picture someone else could draw for less cost. I make less off my client, but I'm more likely to get clients in the first place, as word gets out about how sensible and affordable I am to work with.

Yes I still make money, but my hourly wage is pretty darn low, after my costs are covered and my hours are factored in. The reality is there is no industry where you get paid properly for your time if you work for yourself.

All businesses have to understand the value proposition they provide to their prospective clients. And target that as their means to success. You can make a $1,000,000 by selling one million items at $1 profit each (Walmart), or by selling ten items at a $100,000 profit or something in between.
^ Well said :thumbup:
 
From a buyer/market viewpoint, a knife value mostly hinges on (performance+aesthetic+availability+recognition)/cost. Only performance & aesthetic are intrinsic, avail & recog are demand driven. Good Knifemakers want to offer high value knives.

For many new and hobby KMs - avail & recog are irrelevant. Even with good aesthetic but unproven performance, price need to be quite low in order to offer high-value knives. Can these KMs claim performance on-par with good established/experienced KMs, when a blade of same steel+profile+finished and professionally ht (e.g. Peters, etc..)? Doubted - because from common sense & experience (wisdom) you expect/error-on these KMs learning mistakes (burnt blade & edge, poor cutting profile & sharpening). In consequence, good new & hobby KMs end up must priced their knives below market-value, hence exceedingly high-value return for buyers. Readjusting value offering is a good problem to have once you turn Pro (earned not declared).

For Pro KMs have earned a spot on the market, keep grinding out more high value knives:thumbup:

Time is precious for everybody, even for those didn't think much about it. It's not useful to put a price on other KM's time.
 
The final aspect of this is that all "new businesses" require many times the hours invested than you will get paid for. It doesn't matter what business you are in, whether its knife making, restauranting, or making firearms accessories don't expect to get well paid for your time for many years to come. I am a professional engineer with a personal license, a business license, professional practice insurance, two degrees, I work a day job, run a private engineering practice, and am a partner in a firearms business. I work a LOT of hours in a week and many of them are for little or no pay (that's why the day job). Because I know that that is what it takes to get a business off the ground.

I follow some of these threads with interest. I have started four companies, all successful to one extent or another, including the one that I have now. At 57, I probably won't start another unless the opportunity is too tempting to resist.

The amount of hours it takes, the amount of attention to details, the financial commitment, the personal investment of one's self, the requirement to be a businessman is beyond the understanding of most until you have done it and been successful. Being in business and failing is very easy as there are so many factors that make it so. Being and business and lasting 10 years or more is a level of commitment that most folks don't understand.

Let me also say that with over thirty years of self employment under my belt, right or wrong, I define "in business" as being able to make the house and car payment, utilities, support the household, and getting through your first IRS audit with some hair left on your butt. A business card with your name on it is a nice start, but bringing in one or two thousand a month can't pay anyone's monthly expenses these days. It might be a great secondary income for some, but then it probably just gives them the pride of being thought of as a professional.

Knife making has to be one of the worst industries to try to break into in my own opinion. For less than $5,000, it seems you can have a nicely set up shop of tools and have enough materials to get started. Many seem to do it with less. To add fuel to the problem, it sure looks like a lot of hobby makers turn out a really fine product.

It is a difficult industry to call standards to, as well. If a knife performs poorly, isn't up to expected fit and finish, or even breaks, just send it back and the maker will send you a new one. Not much exposure at all! What is a maker out if his product fails? Another $300 knife? A low liability factor, low investment factor, and low daily costs make this a perfect cottage industry.

I am comparing this to my construction remodel/repair business where I am thinking of flooring coming up, an undiscovered dishwasher leak that causes thousands in damage, siding on a house that was installed properly but was replaced by me because the manufacturer had a "bad batch", etc. If I could make my customer happy for any reason with a new $300 knife (known to me as a $300 fix) and then have him come back here and sing my praises "for being honorable", etc., I would be thrilled.

As it is now, it took me too many hours to count and about 3-5 years to get this business where repeat customers keep me going by calling me. Still, if I don't stay committed to them and my business, they will go somewhere else.

To draw a parallel to the knife business, I can go back to when I was making humidors. I had all the equipment for woodworking in place due to its requirement in my business. And as a professional woodworker, I had the techniques, training, industry knowledge, and was able to set up a workable business model in no time. This was to be "walking around money" generated by using up fine wood scraps from my business.

Couldn't make it. Making humidors became the rage about 25 years ago, and everyone with a saw and sandpaper was making them. Some were crappy quality, some were every bit as good as my product. Some were priced much higher (someone not dependent on sales to pay bills) and some were priced much lower (someone not dependent on sales to pay bills). There was no consistency in pricing at all. I met many of the guys making these when there were woodworking craft shows, and almost all were young guys just trying to make a buck, old guys that were looking for something to do, and none of them had any pricing strategy other than "seeing what the market would bear". They worked out of their garages or tiny shops and had none of my overhead. None of them used their business as 100% of their income. NONE of them reported their income to the IRS, which would have certainly affected their pricing. None of them had a business model, and a few were just "following their passion as traditional wood workers".

I sold all the humidors I made after cutting my price on the existing stock and haven't done anything like that again.

To conclude this long ramble, the knife making business isn't any different than any other business. It is all about commitment, staying power (and personal and $$ reserves) and some luck. No doubt some here will be the next benchmark makers and recognized geniuses of the industry, just as there is no doubt that many will fail even though they put out an excellent product.

So to all you guys that are struggling and working your butts off to make it, the best of luck. You are going down a road every craftsman travels whether it is a Maloof/Krenov inspired furniture maker or a knife maker. You know it is an uphill climb. Hopefully your personal investment of time, money and effort will pay off.

From the outside looking in, it seems to me that the best chance of survival is for all the makers to be sure they stay in touch here. From my chance reading from time to time, I have to say all the makers here seem to be really supportive of one another and ready to help where they can. Kudos to those that developed that mentality and a great pat on the back to those that maintain that air of collegial support for folks they have never met.

Robert
 
The other thing I considered is that some people have offered me more than what I charge for my knives. I have turned it down. I would look like a fool if I charged someone new to custom knives more than what they could get a knife from a senior maker for. I wouldn't get repeat customers then.
Hey, if someone offers more than you are asking... you might be asking too little... congratulations, bud... you make great knives:thumbup:

I don't believe senior makers should be able to command higher prices simply based on "time spent" in the craft. I know they often do... I just don't agree with it.

You get repeat customers by offering a quality product that validates its selling price and by providing outstanding customer service.

I researched the market to get a rough idea of what was out there and where I wanted to be... then looked internally to make sure I was up to snuff.
 
I remember a thread not too long ago where a guy was being lambasted, beguiled and excoriated for being the biggest liar and fraud in the knife making community; for making kit knives and selling them as custom hand made knives of his own design. People were trying to get his customer list and expose him, and do what ever else they could to run him out of business. I am not defending him, or saying that the knife makers didn't have the right to be pissed. But after all of that, (I live in the same town as he does) I think his business is doing pretty good.

So what is this telling us about knife buyers and the business of knives?

Let me just mention this while I'm here..... Maybe I'd better save if for another time.
 
Rick, what I am referring to is an inexperienced buyer figuring a three piece skinner in 15n20 could be $250.00 or $300.00. My fit and finish aren't worth that kind of money at this point. If I took the money, and he started shopping around and saw what he could get for that price, he would feel I am dishonest (and so would I.) The knife just wasn't worth what his excitement felt it was. I would rather make a hidden tang for that price so he got some bang for the buck, and worth what he was offering. A lot of what we do is establishing relationships with customers. I have no plans to go full time, as I don't want this to be a job, but what I am doing has value.
 
I think there is a place for all and I hope most buyers have had a similar experience to mine. The less expensive 'hobby' makers enticed me to buy customs. Reading all that this site has to offer has helped me form much more educated choices/decisions. Now I buy much more expensive blades and am even considering selling off production models to help purchase more customs. The less expensive knives are the gateway knives that lead you to getting hooked on the higher end customs.

Wait we are talking knives right? ;)

That really is how it has happened for me. I still buy from both makers, but my purchases are far more informed and focused.
 
I really don't see how a custom maker can make a good living on knife making unless he is in the production of multiple blades or has twenty years of name recognition. I looked at the website recently of a "custom knife maker" and saw photos of his shop . One photo told the whole story. Their was a clean work table with at least 50 of the same blade. I do not think he even cut out and profiled the blades . I'm guessing he sent a Cad disc to a steel supplier that laid out a sheet of steel and flow-jetted the blanks. I know at least one "maker " that does just that and hired people to grind the blades in batches which he wholesales to a Japanese dealer for sale in Japan. I am not knocking what people do to make an honest living but this is not how I wish to practice some art in metals. I live in California where the illegal aliens gardeners make at least 40K per year and many do not pay any taxes. This is just to compare to the efforts made by knife makers to just barely survive on sales income. If you want to make knives then make knives but if you want to make money then get any other job. Just my opinion. Larry
 
Just one more thing to add to the mix: Quite the boys' club we have going here, isn't it?
I'm not familiar with the higher end collector market, but would I be right in guessing that it's 99% male?
OTOH here I am serving as local a market as possible, and way more than half of my customers are female. Not to be sexist, but they buy a LOT of cooking knives, and are much more likely than men, generally speaking, to spend $ on a gift for someone else.
I'm in awe of the work being done by the top guys (and we're blessed with a whole lot of them here in the PNW) and from my perspective, it's a highly specialized group of phenomenal craftsmen serving a highly specialized market. Looking forward to broadening my horizons and learning more on this subject, many thanks to all the more experienced people who have shared their hard won knowledge.
 
chefs buy alot of kitchen knives and when i got started i saw a knife marker awash with hunters and fighters (and lower margin combat knives) i desided nearly 10 years ago tht tools are needed more then toys. and picked the brains of as many pro and high end home chefs. found out 2 things. chefs are artists like us and liek cool/ nice tools they also use a knife 6-10 hours a day so it had better be right. it has paid off cause i got into the market before the rush and got my name known.
to make ends meet i have 3 retailers that keep me working all the time and i fit in a custom order here and there i have 2 more retailers that woudl like to carry my work but im not sure how im going to swing that and still keep proper fit and finish (so they will wait till i can work it all out )
 
I just started making knives about a year ago. I do it mostly just because I love to do it. I've sold about half a dozen so far. I also do my own heat treating. From what I can see there may not be enough hours in the day for me to make a living at it. Maybe If I get blanks done on my buddies water jet, and send them out for heat treating, but that's getting away from what I like about it. Money corrupts everything don't it?
 
As a hobbyist, my priority is making something that is pleasing to me and potential buyers. I'd like to recoup the costs of the materials or at least the Mrs would. As long as I'm learning, I'm happy to take a little less. I don't consider myself to be a master crafter so I won't be commanding those kinda prices. If my product is hurting a profrssional's business, then they need to re-evaluate their business.
 
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