Why the obsession with prying & chopping?

[Andy_L]

It's very American

I said that half joking but America does have a reputation in the UK for liking very large things when a smaller object might do the same job better. Wy would anyone other then the army want a car that has the same track as a tank? How many Hummers are sold to such people.
I often think folding knives are too thick and it does seem that European knife styles seem to be thinner opinel, victorinox anything from sheffield. Even in outdoor knives most scandanavian ones are thinner then most American ones. I think a lot of it has to do with the "Bowie knife".

 

[Gossman Knives]

It's psychological. Always being told bigger is better. Marketing has alot to do with it too.
Scott

 

[kbog]

Great thread Eric.

Interesting to see the two schools of thought on this. Not sure which camp I'm in yet...

 

[ERdept]

Again, I don't need anything but 3 hots and a cot, but I like to be prepared. You can understand contingency planning right? Or maybe not as I can see by post responses. Here, I'll use analogy or metaphor to illustrate a point... Some patients come to the ER that I work in and we bring the crash cart (defibrillator and heart pacer with medication) and the vent by them. They don't need it right now. But I'm very sure that they appreciate us having this equipment there at the ready though it sits around for the most part unused. In fact, their families thank us for what we do and our effort. Same thinking here with knives. We might not need it now, but good to know that we can do whatever with our knife if necessary. Understand now?

Cliff

 

[the possum]

A perennial favorite, this topic. I do have geniune use for a big knife that can withstand chopping hard stuff. You may not, and that's fine.

But if you give me a hard time for my choices without even asking why, don't be surprised if you find yourself on my list of condescending morons. I carve this list in stone, which is why I need the knife.

Seriously, I started a thread on this topic not too long ago, so maybe you can see some circumstances where these tools and tests are appropriate.

Pics of edge damage from concrete and steel

Some of you have mentioned thick edges-
My edges are a little more than half as thick as the Busse knives I've seen. Their primary purpose is still to cut, but they take abuse because of proper steel and heat treat choices.

 

[DGG]

IMHO, some folks just like to "sweat".

There are so many better tools than a big knife. A good camp axe, a portable meat saw, a poultry shears are much better tools. Heck a Leatherman is a better tool.

I guess if a knife is all you have it is better than nothing.

I remember when most hunting knives were sold in combination with a hatchet. Both were in the same sheath and worn on your belt. We all had them in boy scouts.

However, I'll take the easy (lazy?) way. Instead of lugging around a big knife that does a mediocre job I'll take the right stuff.

 

[not2sharp]

There are so many better tools than a big knife.

We can tease each other over this topic; but there are things that only a big heavy knife can do.

Right after the Spanish American war we found ourselves involved in a protracted guerilla war in the Phillipines, and one of the many things that we discovered was that our machetes would not work there. The tropical hardwoods were too heavy for a light thin blade. So our military produced a series of heavy bolo knives (mod 1904 hospital, 1909, 1910, 1917) which were used well into WWII. All we have to do is examine the wide variety of historic local ethnic knives used around the world to see that large heavy knives are very popular in a wide range of environments. These knives were used to provide daily needs, so if something else would have been more efficient, they would have been redesigned that way.

n2s

 

[the possum]

All we have to do is examine the wide variety of historic local ethnic knives used around the world to see that large heavy knives are very popular in a wide range of environments. These knives were used to provide daily needs, so if something else would have been more efficient, they would have been redesigned that way.

Very pertinent and true.
Thanks, not2sharp.

 

[Stone Knife]

I am so glad you asked this question, because it's been bugging me a little, too.

I just researched what was the toughest hard-wearing steel, came up with 3V, and got a Chris Reeve Nkonka in 3V.

For trees it's a saw, for prying it's a Becker Tac-Tool, and for the poor fool who tries to rob me it's the Nkonka! Somebody else will have to cut up the cinder blocks.

 

[HoB]

I used to be on the "no need for big knife" side of this discussion, but fact is that batoning on a good large blade is much more efficient for a person without regular training than using a small camp axe. And a decent sized camp axed is already a bit heavier than a large blade. Even in your back yard making fire wood you will often use a wedge instead of full body swings of a 3.5 pound axe.

As to the cutting, that depends on edge geometry and what you want to cut. 10 in is considered the ideal length for a professional kitchen knife (personally I like to use an 8 in blade but I am not with the majority), then I don't see, why a 10 in woodcraft blade should be to long to cut well. Its an old hat that they come factory wise often with too obtuse an edge, but that's what a coarse stone is for, right? Cliff has shown that a good blade withstands chopping easily even if it has an edge grind of <20 deg per side (which is normal for any knife).

As to chopping cinderblocks, yeah I agree that is pretty silly and in many ways quite misleading since it doesn't really seem to be such a sever test as you might think.

Sure, if you never go into the woods, because you are living in the city and you don't like to go hiking, camping and have no large backyard to maintain, then, yes, a wood craft blade is pretty useless to you.

Someone said, that it is an "american thing". That may be true but I think that is as much caused by the fact that there are still large woods in America, large enough to lose yourself in, wild camping is a given, and hunting is a national past time with the land to support it, as it is an attitude thing (bigger is better). If you aren't allowed to touch the trees when you are camping as not uncommon in Europe, then a large wood craft blade is, again, pretty useless.

Hey Possum, if you hadn't missed that 'coon you wouldn't have hit the chute instead.... . Sorry, just had to rub that in.... Hope you were able to restore that edge, but I would think it wasn't much of a problem at all?

 

[DGG]

We can tease each other over this topic; but there are things that only a big heavy knife can do.

Right after the Spanish American war we found ourselves involved in a protracted guerilla war in the Phillipines, and one of the many things that we discovered was that our machetes would not work there. The tropical hardwoods were too heavy for a light thin blade. So our military produced a series of heavy bolo knives (mod 1904 hospital, 1909, 1910, 1917) which were used well into WWII. All we have to do is examine the wide variety of historic local ethnic knives used around the world to see that large heavy knives are very popular in a wide range of environments. These knives were used to provide daily needs, so if something else would have been more efficient, they would have been redesigned that way.

n2s

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Another thing we learned from the conflict was not to rely on our 38 cal revolvers. That little police action was the stimulus for the origination of the 45 cal Mod 11 army pistol.

FYI - Here is link to what our current military forces have used fairly successfully in rather harsh environments. Many other folks use the same type of knife (Russians, Isralis) I'm sure if great big knives were "it" they would all be carrying them, don't you?

www.M9Bayonet.Com

 

[the possum]

Hey Possum, if you hadn't missed that 'coon you wouldn't have hit the chute instead.... . Sorry, just had to rub that in...

Yeah, my coordination could use some work.
In all seriousness though, it wouldn't have made much difference whether I hit the coon or not. The blade would've gone right through without slowing down much. It took like 15-20 minutes to restore the edge by hand.

 

[Gossman Knives]

\

FYI - Here is link to what our current military forces have used fairly successfully in rather harsh environments. Many other folks use the same type of knife (Russians, Isralis) I'm sure if great big knives were "it" they would all be carrying them, don't you?

www.M9Bayonet.Com

Speaking of the military, the soldier donation knife project in the shoptalk forum I was involved in consisted of a 6 1/2" long 3/16" thick D2 blade that I donated. It has been in the hands of a Special Ops soldier since March.
Just food for thought.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Why the obsession with prying & chopping?

I have often wonder about it myself, I have seen people read a 4-6 page commentary on a knife and get totally fixated on one section which regards durability to the extent that they ignore everything else and pretend that only the durability work was done - it is interesting behavior.

Most people making such knives are interested in a balance of performance, which is why when you have someone like Busse who does demonstrate a high toughness he also demonstrates the cutting ability by chopping a 2x4 and then cutting a large bundle of ropes, and then shows edge retention by cutting a few thousand pieces of full one inch thick hemp.

It is not overly difficult to make a niche knife that can do one thing well, like break up a block with little effect, it is more difficult to make a knife that can do that, but still allow it to actually serve as a functional knife being able to cut ropes, woods and so forth.

Knives will constantly strike a balance between toughness and durability as these are at odds with one another. Some people like the performance more towards one side of the balance. What I find interesting is people complaining about someone elses preference where there are lots of people who could easily make the same arguement about them.

You note your knives can cut very well and are not optomized for toughness like some others. Well guess what, I own knives which are far more optomized for cutting ability than a Buck 110. I have lots of knives which make a Buck 110 look like a sharpened lawnmower blade in comparison. Does than mean I have some special merit as a knife user - or maybe that I just have different preferences.

So if "your" knife can withstand chopping a cinder block, what does that translate to for other things you might chop?

It isn't that it survives, it is how it is effected. Large brush blades typically encounter such objects, usually rocks more than concrete, which is why such blades were typically made out of very tough steel so it would deform and not fracture.

Sure, I can completely repofile a 1/4" knife so that it will cut efficiently, but not only will it no longer chop as well ...

It will chop better if you adjust the edge profile, I did this with a Marine Raider bowie four years ago :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/ontario.html

scroll down to updates. There are many 1/4" blades which cut very well. Bavid Boye makes some nice stock removal ones and Ray Kirk some forged ones. Both of them would easily out cut a stock Buck 110 on a lot of work.

-Cliff

 

[Stockman]

On a recent fishing trip, 15 hours drive North of Perth, a spring on the trailer carrying the boat and supplies snapped. There was still another 2 hours drive to get to the destination on extremely corrugated road as well as large sand dunes to get over. The only item to mend the trailer was a treated pine log, however, even when heavily roped to the axcel and everywhere else, kept sliding off. The only solution was to cut slots into the log to help it bite into the axcel and supports to stop it sliding off. We had no axe, hawk, chisel and my array of fishing and filleting knives were of no use. Luckily I had brought a Busse NO ( recently aquired from a board member - thanks mate ) which chopped through the log, pryed and chiselled out the sections required. BTW, the knife was still shaving sharp after performing this duty.
No life saving here, but saved the fishing trip.

 

[sodak]

But....You didn't have the right tool for axle repair....Where was your axe...and your welder?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Some large knives do many things extremely well. Some of my large blades will EASILY outchop a hatchet, and be an order of magnitude faster than batoning. Think Khukuri. With the proper technique, they can also be choked up on to do surprisingly fine work also. Not that I don't carry a small folder also. I'm NOT going to carry an axe when hiking, but even my large blades are much lighter and more functional. Some of them have gotten me out of tight jams when time and daylight was short.

I love reading the posts, <I don't need it, so therefore no one else does either>. Yeah right. Like any one of us could possibly forsee all possible situations or environments. If you don't want to carry a large blade, then don't. I'll carry whatever I want. That would be several blades. One is going to be very and very useful.

 

[Mentor]

I don't know many people who collect big choppers / prybars exclusively, but I certainly swear by a big knife when I'm outdoors.

On a past fishing trip we had the misfortune of having a cooking fire get out of hand and spread onto a tinder dry forest floor of pine needles and peat moss. We managed to get the pine needles out with water from the lake, but it became apparent that the peat moss was burning beneath the surface, and that the fire was quickly moving towards the underbrush. My solution was to leave my fishing buddies to douse the ground with water while I moved ahead of the fire and used my Becker BK9 to carve out a deep 'trough' in the peat. When the fire reached this perimeter, it was unable to proceed and we were able to get it under control. Two of the lads I was with had previously scoffed at my big knife, but they were quick to retract their words when it was all over. I can't think of another regular-carry item that could have performed this particular task better than a large, durable knife. The BK9 chewed through the peat, scraped on the rock below, and came out a bit scuffed up but otherwise none the worse for wear.

So that's why I like to carry a chopper / sharpened prybar when I'm camping. The second lesson from this story is not to let 'green' outdoorsmen tend a fire.

-Mike

 

[mike_mck2]

Like I said twice before, I used to buy knives that just did not cut, and I never really thought about it, because I was interested in chopping & prying really. I finally understood that I personally had no use for such a knife, and moved on to more efficient knives that cut better.

I have never owned a 1/4" stock knife that would cut very efficiently. Maybe there are some that do. Lord only knows I have not owned knives from every available maker or company.

Further, I never doubted that some people actually do need a knife that will pry and or chop.

However, there are no end of threads extolling the virtues of a knives that are just super tough, and nobody ever says word one about how they actually perform, because nobody in the thread has actually used one.
You have to admit, that's pretty damn funny, if you think about it.

That's the obsession that I am talking about. If such behavior does not apply to you, then obviously I am not talking about you.
I am talking about people like myself, who were/are buying these super duper choppers/pryers.

One last thing though. Why is that at least 2 or 3 people always insist on trying to speak not only for themselves but for other people as well? With words like "we" and "us"?
"Some of us don't live in the city", "we need to be able to chop"...

Anyway, those of you who obviously got all defensive can unbunch your panties, as I am certainly not trying to impugn your status as a hardcore knife user or some such.

 

[ERdept]

it's settled WE win.

cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

However, there are no end of threads extolling the virtues of a knives that are just super tough, and nobody ever says word one about how they actually perform, because nobody in the thread has actually used one.

A lot of people who buy emergency/survival gear, of which is a large part of that type of knife market, don't actually test out the gear. A dangerous practice to be sure.

There is also a part of the market which buys knives just because they have rambo appeal and really have no intention of ever using it. This is really no sillier than any of the other reasons people buy knives just for collecting.

-Cliff