Why the obsession with prying & chopping?

DGG said:
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Another thing we learned from the conflict was not to rely on our 38 cal revolvers. That little police action was the stimulus for the origination of the 45 cal Mod 11 army pistol.

FYI - Here is link to what our current military forces have used fairly successfully in rather harsh environments. Many other folks use the same type of knife (Russians, Isralis) I'm sure if great big knives were "it" they would all be carrying them, don't you?

www.M9Bayonet.Com
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It is true that the .38 was deemed inadequate in its performance in that fight. The other side of the coin that never gets told is that the .45 Colt Peacemakers that were shipped there (while a more modern replacement was being looked for/refined) hardly proved any better. Rifles and (very occasionally used) shotguns were what reliably stopped those charges. If you look at it, it's not hard to see why, as the difference in delivered energy between a 30/40 Kraig and either of the aforementioned cartridges is tremendous. I say this as a fan of the 1911 (and the Peacemaker and Colt Army Revolver, also), but it is one of the most largely used examples of why-this-is-better caliber comparisons and the fact is that it's a pretty poor one, since the bigger shell hardly faired better.

Also, you have to spend very little time around the armed forces to be disabused of notions like "if there was something better, they'd use it." You can go to any Walmart and get better camo than the infantryman is bombing around the woods with. The real truth is, "if anyone could produce it cheaper, we'd buy it." Just the hard-knock reality of having to outfit hundreds of thousands of people.

But, back to the topic. I like big heavy knives, and I like small thin knives. I have knives that can cut through car doors and knives that can shave slivers from a hair. I like both, and have applications for both. This argument always seems somewhat akin to:
"Why do you eat beef? I can get all that protein in smoothie!!" "Well, I can get beef out in the country if I'm starving and see a cow. Where will your smoothie-eating butt be then?!" "If my skills are good enough, I won't BE starving..."

We all are members of a set of forums that almost exlusively talks about knives. I don't think there are many here who can, therefore, claim that they see them only as tools and nothing else, and have no "because it's cool" influence in what they buy. Buy what you like or need, and let others do the same. Speak loud and happily about what interests you and why it does, but questioning the validity of others' interests seems rather pointless, unless you have no other intention than starting a fight. I really can't see another reason, other than a really sad one of needing justification. I can't imagine being insecure enough to feel that my interests/beliefs/opinions' validity depended upon communal consent.
 
[What is with the value placed on being able to pry & chop cinder blocks with your knife?]

averageguy said:
It's a newbie thing. I went through this also when I first started collecting.
After you go to a few shows and get to see some MS blades you get over it.
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Ray Kirk, who is a MS, asked me to do some concrete block chopping with one of his knives.

-Cliff
 
I see my knives as cutting tools only. This isn't to say that I wouldn't pry or chop with one if I had to. I generally try to use the right tool for the job, and a knife just isn't meant for chopping and prying. Besides, I think you would get a lot more done with a good hatchet and a pry bar.

I can understand owning a large, thick fixed blade if you really needed a do all tool. Soldiers certainly fall into this catagory since they can't go around hauling a ton of gear. The rest of us are rarely this limited in our selection of tools. Such knives have their place, but I would carry something different if possible.
 
ERdept said:
Again, I don't need anything but 3 hots and a cot, but I like to be prepared. You can understand contingency planning right? Or maybe not as I can see by post responses.
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And again, there's "planning for the unexpected" and there's "obsessing over the unexpected". We each draw that line differently. You think that carrying a thick-bladed knife that can pry and chop is prudent planning, but (presumably) that carrying a 14" bowie for utility, a maul for heavier smashin', and a zweihander for hand to hand defense (in addition to that garand) is overkill, 'cause you're not prepared to sacrifice that much weight "just in case" you find yourself in a position where you need a sword taller than you are. Do you EDC an AED?

I draw that line in a different place. I carry a thin-bladed knife for utility and emergencies. I wear a Benchmade Rescue Hook around my neck for different emergencies. I carry a SAK to deal with unexpected utility chores. I carry six feet of paracord "just in case" I need it. I carry a small LED light as a convenient light source, and a LX light in the winter, when there's a jacket pocket to work with. I carry a pen and notebook wherever I go. I never leave home without my cellphone. I carry extra cash "just in case" thre's an unexpected problem with my credit card. I keep extra cash on hand at home "just in case" there's a problem with my payroll check. I have extra money in the bank to deal with unexpected expenses. I fill my gas tank before I need to. I have a spare car key in my wallet.

But I don't carry a handgun, because I'm not prepared to commit a felony "just in case". And I don't carry a Strider because I'm not prepared to sacrifice cutting performance in a hundred daily tasks so that I'm prepared for cutting free a Hummer windshield "just in case". My Calypso will do anything I need ito to on 364 days of the year, and in that emergency, it'll most likely perform just fine.

If you find that you're routinely performing tasks that require a thick, obtuse blade, then your life's very different from mine, and it stands to reason you'd make different choices of what to carry.
 
Grover, very well said. :thumbup:

Just in case means to me:

My cellphone, a pen a notebook, LM Wave added with some other screwheads (torx.....), extra lighter if the Zippo doen´t work, compass, metric band (5m), extra knife (not that the Wave features two blades), wallet, edc folder.

Everything exept the folder is in a Maxped soundso bag instead of the car.

Everything my folder could pry, will the wave pry better. I never came into a situation where i had to chop in an emergency.

All i need in knife is a reliable folder with a blade which is able to cut hard stuff. So i am fine with a stock of 3mm flat ground and think it surely is oversized for the things i usually cut in a decade.

I have been fine with a blade of 2.5 mm for over 8 years.

For the choppers and prybars:

If there is nothing more about the knives to buy than "just in case", it feels disapointing. It is very little reason compared to the money they cost.

I just remember two german guys, who do bow and arrow sports, who really, after testing other knives, fell in love with Busses.

I do respect this, but still think even in that case there are other ways to skin the cat. But i agree, that ppl. buying that knives for just in case, can hardly tell the difference to other knives.

Personal, the pry and chop thing (thickness) for me was interesting because of fearing a broken blade. But this is based on the fact, that i really can´t tell how strong steel of different types should be or can be. I really can´t tell, how thick a knife must be for this or that task.

I just beleive, that most choppers are too thick.

I just believe, that a thinner stock can lead into a more durable blade.
 
These responses are fantastic! I really enjoy the many and varied responses to thread starters, especially this one. Keep the discussion going.

cliff
 
Blop said:
I just beleive, that most choppers are too thick.
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Depends on the wood, you need a certain cross section to allow a smooth transition out of the wood. A 1/8" or even 3/16" blade can bind or stick in woods readily where a 1/4" one can be draw smoothly which makes it vastly more efficient. The larger khukuris are very fluid in woods for this reason, of course they have lots of power as well due to the weight.

Not all chopping of course is done on thick brush. As the vegetation gets lighter and smaller, the blades start cutting right through it, and thus there is no issue with wedging. Once this is removed the profiles are pretty much gutted right down to the bare minimum which is required for stability on the swing and necessary durability. This runs the scale from 3/16" parangs to 1/16" machetes.

-Cliff
 
LOL

And again we come to it--why this obsession with the idea that you must buy ONE type of knife (like that's true of anyone here) and use it exclusively? I EDC a Gene Ingram pocketnife and an A.G. Russell Scout, and that suits my day to day needs. If I'm going hunting, I generally take a less-pointy skinner blade and something with a very non-slip handle for getting down into the guts. If I'm going into the wilds and have room/space for them, I generally carry a really good hatchet, a medium-small sized fixed blade, and (of course) a pocketnife. If I'm going to be out in the wilds for a LONG time (or up in high places), I stick to a medium-big knife and a pocketknife to shed ounces. When I was doing government-sponsered camping (;)) it was the same combo, one to "do everything" and a little one that was really sharp.

I could go on and on, getting into brush clearing if you have rubbery shrubs as opposed to vines with thorns on them, etc., but the main point is there are a billion different applications out there, and some people find themselves doing some more than others.

Now, is there a heavy influence of "because military/police guys use it" cool-factor in the amount of interest in the big bruisers? You bet there is! That's not likely to change, either, as this line of work appeals to the inner-badass in most men, whether they actually choose it as a vocation or not. Action/war movies will always make more at the box office than movies about 8:00-5:00 businessmen (even ones that open letters or dice celery with their meant-for-cutting thin knives), and car magazines will always put Corvettes on their covers over Sentras.

The idea of adventure appeals to people, and that's why knives that are seen as adventuresome get a lot of talk and press here. Do the majority of them get used for serious adventure? No. Do the majority of distal tapered, hand rubbed, stabilized-burl handled (read: $300.00+) skinners actually get taken out into the rain and muck to skin anything? No. But that's okay--some do, and those that don't are being payed for by people who have the freedom to buy something just because they want it.

And let me address something else why we're on the subject, because this one gets thrown out a bunch, that people who aren't in the military but like "tactical" stuff are posers and wannabes. There certainly are such people out there, but merely liking the gear doesn't make you one. Actually, I think that being human makes you one. I'm Army and have done my share of in-the-field stuff (though no defending-the-Alamo last ditch knife fighting, sadly ;)), and my cousin went the SF route. And you know what? We're STILL waiting to become real badasses. We're sure it's going to happen any day now. Kind of like when you're a goofy freshman in high school, and the seniors seem like gods, and then four years later you're wondering when you're going to start feeling like a god instead of a goofy freshman with four years' experience. So, I guess I'm saying there's a bit of a poser in all of us------including those who like to sneer at "big heavy knives" while holding their accutely honed Opinel and dreaming of being a sensible farmer out in the country, giving forth sage advice on how to live an unencumbered life...right before their cell phone goes off and they have to dart to that meeting. It's okay, they'll have that unencumbered life someday. ;)

Once again, buy what you like, use what you need, and worry not about how others choose to do so. This "does everybody agree with me" need and desire for melodramatic conflict makes it more and more clear to me how adults acting like angsting teenagers (read: reality TV) can have garnered such a following...
 
T1mpani, I agree with what you said (Hell, I almost always do), but I didn't read this thread as an argument over the question "Is there only one type of knife that you should buy?" I saw the debate as A) an advocate for the position that "sharpened prybars" are impractical vs. B) posters who see them as having utility in given situations. No?
 
Thomas Linton said:
T1mpani, I agree with what you said (Hell, I almost always do), but I didn't read this thread as an argument over the question "Is there only one type of knife that you should buy?" I saw the debate as A) an advocate for the position that "sharpened prybars" are impractical vs. B) posters who see them as having utility in given situations. No?
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It seems to be not as much "one type of knife you should buy", instead it is "Nobody needs a thick knife". -an equally mindless statement.
 
Agreed, but many people do not seem to be able to promote their own preferences without speaking down to those who differ from them. I may come off sounding more heated than I really am in this, but posts like, "I guess these type of knives are to make up for having poor skills" (paraphrased to not single anyone out) and other some such are what I'm addressing. I could be very wrong, but it seemed to me that the very phrasing of the thread-starting post was designed to be incendiary more than anything else.

However, point taken--I may be running away with my own point and missing the larger one. ;)
 
Where does weight and balance come into the equation? On older forged knives we often see plenty of fullers and tapers used to drive the mass of the blade right over the center of precussion. You would pick one of those up and feel qualities of balance and motion that seem very lively. By comparison too many of the knives made today feel like your holding a piece of flat bar handled in duct tape. Perhaps, it is not so much a question of thick and thin; some knives are simply overly fat and poorly designed.

Take an 8 inch bowie ground from a flat bar, add proper tapers and fullers, and you may be able to drop the weight by 30% while increasing its cutting and chopping performance. Then give it a task oriented blade geometry, and an appropriate edge and it will cut effectively.

We often forget that performance is a designed criteria; thick or thin is only one aspect of it. Just because a traditional japanese sword has a thick spine does not mean that it lacks the ability to cut. I have an older 19th century European machete that is around 1/4 inch at the spine yet it weighs less and feel much easier to use then a standard Ontario army machete ground from 1/8 inch stock. The guy who designed that old machete put the weight in the right place and used the extra width of the blade stock to create a stiffer blade and a stronger edge; both, of which are a big plus if you are concerned about having an overly springy bladed thing bounce off a solid object and into your leg in the days before penicillin.

It is hard to even imagine what a good fighter would be like since dueling with knives was a rarity even in antiquity. But, I would suspect that a relatively stiff well tapering blade with a somewhat flexible point would be a positive. You want something that can work its way around and through a ribcage, and yet strong enough to force the point and prevent breakage. Ask yourself how many of today's fighters have any flexibility at all. Imitation may be the highest form of flattery; but, just because it is shaped like someone's notion of a knife does not make it a particularly good knife.

n2s
 
mike_mck2 said:
Sure, I can completely repofile a 1/4" knife so that it will cut efficiently, but not only will it no longer chop as well, I can buy a more efficient knife to begin with, and save the trouble.
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How are you reprofiling such a knife? If you're using a 1"-diameter grinding wheel at the edge, sure, you'll lose chopping ability to cutting ability, but were you to thin out the edge on a slack belt, you'll increase cutting ability and chopping ability. Well, by chopping, I'm assuming you mean felling (such as chopping down a tree or hacking off its limbs) and not splitting (guess that one defines itself). Are you meaning otherwise? Where you feel you'd have to completely reprofile a knife to increase its cutting ability instead of thinning the edge with a back-bevel, does your definition of reprofiling differ from mine? I mean changing the angle of the edge and/or the steel behind it when I say reprofiling. What did you mean?

Thanks!
 
not2sharp said:
You would pick one of those up and feel qualities of balance and motion that seem very lively. By comparison too many of the knives made today feel like your holding a piece of flat bar handled in duct tape.
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I have handled a few knives like this including a couple of Randalls which would almost seem weightless in hand. This lack of helf however also severely reduces power on a swing. Of course there is no excuse for a lack of proper handle ergonomics.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Depends on the wood, you need a certain cross section to allow a smooth transition out of the wood. A 1/8" or even 3/16" blade can bind or stick in woods readily where a 1/4" one can be draw smoothly which makes it vastly more efficient. The larger khukuris are very fluid in woods for this reason, of course they have lots of power as well due to the weight.

Not all chopping of course is done on thick brush. As the vegetation gets lighter and smaller, the blades start cutting right through it, and thus there is no issue with wedging. Once this is removed the profiles are pretty much gutted right down to the bare minimum which is required for stability on the swing and necessary durability. This runs the scale from 3/16" parangs to 1/16" machetes.

-Cliff
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At first i would think about the edge. I guess a good convex profile will help the most.

But i am just talking without knowing.
 
The edge profile is critical for performance, but you take a really nice wide convex edge on a 1/8" machete and chop into a piece of semi-hard wood and the machete will bind solid across the primary flats. Even 3/16" blades like the RTAK stick solid in those woods. You need more cross section to split the wood apart during the cut.

-Cliff
 
I guess I'm in the "who needs to chop and pry" camp.

I have spent plenty of time in the woods, from deserts to swamps and from flat plains to mountains, and I have really never needed to chop or pry (but i have needed to dig on occasion--but that is why shovels are made).

Almost every time I go in to the wilderness, the only knives that I bring are a locking one-hander (which I always carry anyway) and a Victorinox Rucksack.

In fact, I will sometimes go to great lengths to NOT destroy the terrain and the flora.
I try to leave the wilderness just as I found it so that others can enjoy it just as I did.

Now that I think of it, I mostly need to pry or chop when I'm back in the suburbs. And I have tools in my truck and in my garage that are better than any knife for prying and chopping.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
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