Why Won't Noss Stand Behind His "Work?"

[Esav Benyamin]

Ah, but I like watching to see who actually cares, and what they care about. (And as a moderator, I get to torment myself watching threads that might need my professional input, too. )

 

[Guyon]

Guess we have something in common after all!

6 of your 9 posts are in this thread.

This point isn't directed at you personally, busselover, but your username raises a point I've considered in the past. So many folks seem to like or dislike noss4 based on how long their favorite brand of knife has lasted in his destructions. In some cases, noss4 has swayed people in the direction of certain brands based on a perceived notion that a knife should be able to withstand hammer blows into steel. What he's done, for some individuals, is change the standards by which a knife should be judged.

Perhaps he's not only affecting the market; perhaps he's also somehow affecting standards among certain newcomers to the knife world (many of them adolescent boys, I suspect). If he's having such an effect, shouldn't he stand up and take credit for it? Wouldn't that be the responsible thing?

 

[kgd]

No one is claiming that he's breaking the law. There's legality, and there's responsibility.

I don't really see the difference between the two. How can I be responsible for something that isn't a legal issue? People can not like me because of my actions, beliefs or statements. Such is life.

Guyon - I understand. I don't want to come off as a fanboy, which it seems like I am of late. I keep responding to this post because I find it an interesting attack on the value of internet communication as conducted through pseudonyms. Do we really want to hate him for his popular following? Admittedly, he has gotten a bit more boisterous lately in his opinions which I don't like so much. I liked it better in the older days when he would simply report his test results and leave most of the discourse to people responding to his tests.

Derek24 - I couldn't agree more!!

 

[Phil Elmore]

Strawman polls, attacking the man, etc Phil that has been your behaviour the whole thread. With you a debate is beating a dead horse until the thread dies then you can pronounce you win. It is never about facts or logic. I don't need to defend the man his videos speak for themselves, it was never about Noss or his identity you brought that to the table. Don't like em, don't watch em. Want to know who Noss is email him and ask.

You don't seem to understand. This thread is NOT about the content of the "tests." It is specifically about the moral obligation assumed when one posts public criticism of someone else's work. I've asserted that a moral obligation exists to stand behind one's public criticism. I've asserted that "Noss," therefore, ought to take public responsibility for his activities by standind behind those activities rather than hiding behind the shield of anonymity. This is a direct criticism of his behavior[/i]. An "ad hominem" attack is a logical fallacy because an attack on the person is used in a fallacious attempt to dismiss the arguments made by that person. I am not concerned, in this thread, with the validity of his "tests" themselves.

I don't really see the difference between the two. How can I be responsible for something that isn't a legal issue? People can not like me because of my actions, beliefs or statements. Such is life.

There are plenty of things we do that, while legal, aren't moral, or right. There are plenty of things we are free not to do that, while we are breaking no law in not doing them, still represent an abdication of responsibility.

 

[kgd]

Perhaps he's not only affecting the market; perhaps he's also somehow affecting standards among certain newcomers to the knife world (many of them adolescent boys, I suspect). If he's having such an effect, shouldn't he stand up and take credit for it? Wouldn't that be the responsible thing?

Maybe those kids just need more role models I see lots of good candidates in this place. Thom Brogan was one of them for me early on. Not because he uses his real name...

 

[busselover]

6 of your 9 posts are in this thread.

This point isn't directed at you personally, busselover, but your username raises a point I've considered in the past. So many folks seem to like or dislike noss4 based on how long their favorite brand of knife has lasted in his destructions. In some cases, noss4 has swayed people in the direction of certain brands based on a perceived notion that a knife should be able to withstand hammer blows into steel. What he's done, for some individuals, is change the standards by which a knife should be judged.

Perhaps he's not only affecting the market; perhaps he's also somehow affecting standards among certain newcomers to the knife world (many of them adolescent boys, I suspect). If he's having such an effect, shouldn't he stand up and take credit for it? Wouldn't that be the responsible thing?

never heard of the "noss" before this thread and never checked out his vids until this thread...

he should do what he wants as long as he breaks no laws...no one has the right to dictate. don't like it, walk away....responsible thing? according to who? seems the knife makers know him.what's the bfd?

geez, it's a knife not nuclear secrets.he beats the crap out of knives and puts it on youtube. people draw their own conclusions. that's what's cool!freedom of speech!

 

[Esav Benyamin]

So what Sharp Phil is doing is not freedom of speech, expressing his opinion?

 

[Phil Elmore]

Ultimately, we all do what we want, as long as it's legal, and sometimes when it's not. But we are all subject to the consequences of our public conduct.

 

[LosGatos]

You guys really argued about this most of the day? Wow.

 

[busselover]

So what Sharp Phil is doing is not freedom of speech, expressing his opinion?

exactly, his opinion.... I know it and you know it but he seems out of the loop...

 

[neeman]

Why do you equate the expression of a moral principle with anger?

Why would I need to "walk away" from it?

Why is asking someone to stand behind their public criticism in an equally public fashion a "radical attack?"

If my work has any consistent theme, it is adherence to moral principle. I don't find asking this question at all contrary to that.

"Bigger" than a simple question of basic responsibility? I hope not.

I don't suffer fools. I walk away from nothing. But these are, I think, qualities worth possessing.

Please don't fret over it. And thank you for the compliment.

Phil,

Passion and Anger are different.
Your posts have not come thru as passionate

I learnt in Aikiodo, that if you are not there for your attacker, then he is not your attacker.

I live in a country where too many people die for someone elses moral principles.
I would rather see people live by their humanity.

Perhaps suffering fools is a strenght?

Neeman

And the only thing I fret about is my guitar.

 

[Kiah]

You guys really argued about this most of the day? Wow.

I've been making sheaths all day, and posting during pressings. Still, this is probably the smartest post I've read in this thread. Clicking "Unsubscribe" now.

 

[noss4]

I have giving all my contact info to any maker who has asked for it. Chris Reeve
Busse, Cold Steel, Ontario, Ranger knives are a few who have my info and phone number. They can call and talk to me anytime they like. :thumbup:

Phil you are no one to DEMAND !! anything from me. So you can demand all you want but you will not get anywhere.

This is my only post in this thread.

 

[Vorpal Blade]

Since the language in the poll was unacceptable to me I did not vote. Here is the kind of poll option I would have chosen had it been available:
__________________________________

Why does Noss remain anonymous?
MY VOTE:--He is a private person who, nevetheless is commited to assist purchasers of "hard use" knives.
__________________________________

The important question is:- Do Noss' knife tests provide valuable information about durability?

Many of those wishing to attack Noss will try to discredit his character. Others will try to discredit the tests, claiming they cannot be valid if they are not "scientific". These types of criticisms are diversions and do not address the main issue:- Do Noss' tests have practical value for those wishing to buy the most rugged edged tool for the money.

I think most people see that Noss' tests provide strong predictive indications of any given knife models's performance under stress.

 

[gajinoz]

Well, this has certainly been an entertaining thread. We start off with an opinion piece and that quickly descends into a collection of arguments full of strawmen, ad hominems and logical fallacies.

Fortunately there was just enough reasoned argument in the mix to keep it interesting. I actually read the entire thing through in one sitting, somewhat unusual for me for threads this long.

As for my opinions on noss:

On his anonymity - Don't care either way. He is not relevant enough to me to be of much interest.

On his knife related activities - Do I think his knife "tests" are in any way scientifically valid? No. Do I think they provide entertainment value? For some, maybe. For me, not really. Do I care what he does with knives? No.

My response to the original post would be this:

In a perfect world the argument probably has some merit. Unfortunately this is far from a perfect world and people will do what they will do. If he were doing something illegal, there are remedies for that. If he's just doing something personally objectionable, voice the opinion and move on.

Too many people get WAY too bent out of shape over things that, in the larger picture, mean very little.

 

[kgd]

Ultimately, we all do what we want, as long as it's legal, and sometimes when it's not. But we are all subject to the consequences of our public conduct.

Agreed. Isn't the pseudonym Noss facing those consequences through threads like this, or more appropriately Thenewone's ? If completely refuted in public, or banned from BF for violating rules, does Noss not suffer punishment via his need to relinquish a public identity - i.e. the Noss handle, that he has worked over time to build up? Does not discrediting his work on BF, also discredit the work on his website and shame him in front of his 'so called followers?'

Taking Guyon's arguments above, he has generated a following. This may or may not have gone to his head. If it has, then he stands to lose it all by having his pseudonym publicly discredited. Even if he comes back under a new pseudonym, he cannot lay claim to his body of work under the handle 'Noss'. Isn't that public accountability?

Edit to add - Noss came to defend himself....Again evidence of the importance his BF identify is to him.

 

[AF]

Many people think that a 1/4'' thick knife should be able to take abuse. They think that a 1/4'' thick knife is not merely a cutting implement. I agree with that.
The bottom line for me is that unless you think Noss is purposefully skewing his tests to favor or disfavor a brand or maker, there is nothing to complain about. I would expect that such a complaint, if it were to arise, would come from one of the brands that fared poorly in his tests. I'm not sure why an apparent "outsider" like the OP would raise a concern. If a legitimate concern were raised about Noss's credibility, then that would probably be a legal issue and even if not, people would take notice and quickly discredit Noss.
A moral objection to posting something anonymously on the internet? It's a problem because there are a lot of eyeballs focused on this anonymous individual and this individual is influencing people and their decisions whether or not to buy a knife?
You haven't convinced me.

 

[sunnyd]

6 of your 9 posts are in this thread.

This point isn't directed at you personally, busselover, but your username raises a point I've considered in the past. So many folks seem to like or dislike noss4 based on how long their favorite brand of knife has lasted in his destructions. In some cases, noss4 has swayed people in the direction of certain brands based on a perceived notion that a knife should be able to withstand hammer blows into steel. What he's done, for some individuals, is change the standards by which a knife should be judged.

Perhaps he's not only affecting the market; perhaps he's also somehow affecting standards among certain newcomers to the knife world (many of them adolescent boys, I suspect). If he's having such an effect, shouldn't he stand up and take credit for it? Wouldn't that be the responsible thing?

Guyon,

Here, here. I alluded to this before, but clearly this is much better stated than anything I was able try and convey. Thanks for hitting the nail on the proverbial head.

Thanks for your valuable insight and all of your thoughtful postings here.

 

[emperorwang]

it seems to me the consensus on this thread is that most people do not share the OP's extreme moral indignation over noss's anonymity.

As I've stated on the noss issue, i totally don't give a crap, but i'd like to know why no one has brought up this point:

i just don't think it's wise to give one's full name on the internet. i wouldn't do it. i'm definitely not gonna give out my freakin phone number. i think noss, like me, is probably just a private dude. no conspiracy theories, no ninjas/UFO's, it probably really is that simple. Take nutnfancy, for instance. He shows his face occasionally, but do we know who he is? What's his name? He wisely doesn't disclose it, as far as i know, probably because he works in law enforcement. but nutnfancy's review methods are not controversial, so i guess that's why there's not a whiny biased poll about him on BF.

 

[busselover]

"A moral objection"

That is the crux of it....by OP's own admission....

But hey, aren't those BUSSE knives COOL!