Why would a frame lock be stronger than a liner lock??

giant1 said:
Personally I like the frame locks over the the liner locks, I carry a sebenza and really cannot fault the design.

There seems to be good argument for both sides so in the end it will come down to personal preference. Both styles work really well as long as they are made well and used within their design application or intention. Just remember that the idea of a folding knife is that it is a convenient way to carry a blade for normal daily use.

What I don't get is why anyone would ever expect a folder to be some kind of over built monster that will tear down trees, zombies or buildings in a single blow. If it's a folding knife it will have limitations regardless of the locking mechanism.
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+1 on this post.:thumbup: The manufacturing of the knife, liner lock or framelock, is so very important. The correct angles for the lock must be there for the lock to function as it is intended too. One reason liner locks get a bad rap is that they are so easy to produce and cheap knife manufactures use the design, and then produce a liner lock that is not going to work for very long.

Although I like overbuilt folders, thick blades and thick locks, I have enough common sense to realize that it is a folder, a pre broken knife, as I sometimes see it stated. So regardless of the lock there are going to be limitations to it.

I actually prefer a liner lock folder as long as it is manufactured correctly.
 
philwar said:
The lock not so much as the whole top of the liner. It should add rigidity lateral-wise.
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The Gayle Bradley is a liner lock that could be a framelock with scales. The lock bar is very thick and the cutout is quite shallow. But as Phil has pointed out, for the liner lock to fail, it would most likely buckle at the cutout, and the buckling would be resisted by the scale. Even if the scale is not robust, your hand will be clenching it, and the likelihood of failure seems remote.

It's difficult for me to see how even a failure of a good-quality framelock or liner lock would threaten the fingers, although the locks could be damaged with very hard use.
 
I have a few XM-18s an XM-24 and 2 Sebenzas - BUT - my Spyderco Military gives me the feeling of greatest confidence regarding the lock not slipping. I could be all wet but the spring snaps into place and always about 45% - 50% lockup. :thumbup:

I do have a cheapo Resilience, 2 Kershaws - Leek and a "1/2 ton" that I would never stab in a million years they're so flimsy. :eek:
 
I think for most of us who don't use their folders as prybars, hammers, or screwdrivers, lock strength is more or less irrelevant. For me, it's about convenience and longevity. I like to be able to open and close my knives with one-hand, preferably blind-folded. In this regard, lockbacks don't quite scratch that itch unless the blade is fairly heavy and there's somewhat of a choil so that the edge doesn't drop on my pointer finger if I shake it partially closed and use my finger to push it the rest of the way in.

The threat of a broken Omega spring also makes me a wee bit twitchy around Axis locks, though I haven't broken one yet(don't use them too often though).

Thus far, the only other lock that's easy for me to operate one-handed is the compression and HAWKS lock.
 
No stabbing with a folder? Have you not seen the Cold Steel Tri-Ad lock? Its awesome! my Rajah 2 and my Spartan are beast's. I carry these cuties with 100% confidence.
 
I've never had a lock fail from stabbing, though I don't exactly stab trees with my knives(except a papaya tree, but those are hollow like bamboo). I strongly suspect I would never need to stab something so hard. And in such a situation where I might need to stab/pry something, I doubt I would be carrying my fixed blade given the lack of conceal-ability. But even then, my recent choice of fixed blades(Mora Flex, Spyderco Moran Featherweight, Phil Wilson Southfork) doesn't exactly inspire confidence so far as stabbing or prying activities go.

Knife strength isn't as black and white as fixed vs folder.
 
Threads like this make me wonder if I am missing something I should be aware of.

At some point in time a frame- and linerlock will reach the opposite bar and can no longer compensate for wear maybe causing a little bladeplay.
I can understand how this would be unpleasant but I fail to understand how this would be unsafe as in causing the lock to fail as long as the opposite bar keeps the lock on the tang. In other words I fail to see safety issues with a 75-100% lockup versus 50-75%
 
Twindog said:
The Gayle Bradley is a liner lock that could be a framelock with scales. The lock bar is very thick and the cutout is quite shallow. But as Phil has pointed out, for the liner lock to fail, it would most likely buckle at the cutout, and the buckling would be resisted by the scale. Even if the scale is not robust, your hand will be clenching it, and the likelihood of failure seems remote.
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Thank you for explaining it better than I did. And yes, the GB is a very good example of a linerlock that at least appears and feels as robust as almost any framelock.
I too think it's a theoretical issue, no well-constructed framelock is going to fail from even hard use. But a framelock can only get stronger by having a G10 or CF scale fixed on to it.
 
Notice the reoccurring phrase? RELIABLE frame lock and RELIABLE liner lock. Getting a good frame/ liner lock doesn't depend on the model or the company, because any production company can get it right some of the time. But the other times the knives aren't exactly right and most likely even if you have a pair of micrometers I doubt you could pick the good one. The lock face and blade tang face angles make a difference, the lock length make a difference, and the grit all are finished to most likely makes a difference. I think luck of the draw probably makes a difference. Sure you can buy a Chris Reeve knife with his higher tolerances, but I'm sure even he gets it wrong sometimes and has warranty returns.

I have owned a lot of knives at this point and I don't buy liner locks and rarely frame locks unless it is a design I REALLY like and even then I plan to treat it like a slip joint for the most part. I have had much too high a percentage of frame/liner locks have a problem to keep trusting them. They also don't have to have a permanent catastrophic failure for there to be a problem. Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is that some frame/ liner locks like to 'walk' towards the unlocked position with repeated pressure on the blade or by twisting and torquing the blade in relation to the handle. This doesn't cause permanent damage but allows the knife to unlock which can put your fingers in danger. This is what has happened to me a few times and what I consider a failure and is the main problem with this type of knife lock. If the blade closes when you don't want it to, even if there is no damage, it is a failure. Others may disagree.
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is that some frame/ liner locks like to 'walk' towards the unlocked position with repeated pressure on the blade or by twisting and torquing the blade in relation to the handle. This doesn't cause permanent damage but allows the knife to unlock which can put your fingers in danger.
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Do you think Lionsteel have solved this satisfactorily with their SR-1?
 
I have used and carried most kinds of locks and have only had two failures. One was a lock back that had lint trapped in it. (My fault) the other was an axis lock that had an omega spring failure. (first generation) I have used Sebenzas and frame lock Spydecos very hard without any problems. Also never had any problems with liner locks.

Having said that I trust the compression lock the most. The design seems to be the best I've seen and I have used a couple of those knives very hard. I honestly don't think there's much of an issue with quality knives even under hard use. There is antidotal evidence to the contrary with any lock but honestly every manufacturer has same lemons. You can't expect any folding knife to perform as a fixed blade so I only torque, baton, pry or otherwise abuse a folder when it's an emergency.

It is interesting that I have a twenty year old SAK Super Tinker that I have torqued tightening screws hundreds of times with no damage. pretty good for a twenty dollar folder. :-)
 
philwar said:
Do you think Lionsteel have solved this satisfactorily with their SR-1?
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I have a ti SR-1 and I think the design goes a long ways to solve some of the framelock's short comings. The rotoblock will prevent the lock from slipping (if it is engaged) which from my experience is the main mode of 'failure', even though there is no permanent damage to the knife. I have had 2 knives actually close on my fingers due to this and they weren't cheap knives. The replaceable lock tip is the other feature that really helps the design. If you do beat on the knife enough to peen the lock face then it can be replaced which should bring the lockup back close to new. The replaceable piece also contains the ball detent which is another consumable part of the frame lock design, so again, replacing it should make it close to new.

I really like the SR-1 and I have been really impressed with the Sleipner tool steel. It holds an edge just about as good as any other steel I have used and I consider myself somewhat of a steel snob. I don't know if it is because the blades are heat treated in smaller batches so they get a more optimum heat treat than a full production blade, or if it is the steel. But it seems like really good stuff regardless. I still think there are much better lock designs than frame and liner locks, but the SR-1 features help a lot.
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
Notice the reoccurring phrase? RELIABLE frame lock and RELIABLE liner lock. Getting a good frame/ liner lock doesn't depend on the model or the company, because any production company can get it right some of the time. But the other times the knives aren't exactly right and most likely even if you have a pair of micrometers I doubt you could pick the good one. The lock face and blade tang face angles make a difference, the lock length make a difference, and the grit all are finished to most likely makes a difference. I think luck of the draw probably makes a difference. Sure you can buy a Chris Reeve knife with his higher tolerances, but I'm sure even he gets it wrong sometimes and has warranty returns.

I have owned a lot of knives at this point and I don't buy liner locks and rarely frame locks unless it is a design I REALLY like and even then I plan to treat it like a slip joint for the most part. I have had much too high a percentage of frame/liner locks have a problem to keep trusting them. They also don't have to have a permanent catastrophic failure for there to be a problem. Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is that some frame/ liner locks like to 'walk' towards the unlocked position with repeated pressure on the blade or by twisting and torquing the blade in relation to the handle. This doesn't cause permanent damage but allows the knife to unlock which can put your fingers in danger. This is what has happened to me a few times and what I consider a failure and is the main problem with this type of knife lock. If the blade closes when you don't want it to, even if there is no damage, it is a failure. Others may disagree.
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I've only had that happen with a ZT 0301. A spine tap(not a whack) would disengage the lock. However, it seems like an issue that could easily be picked out with said test. And Kershaw did fix the issue and sent the knife back to me.

In any case, I do appreciate some knives having a finger guard as part of the design, as it would prevent the edge from touching your fingers even if it does close unexpectedly. But again, the lock is more to keep the knife in the open position than anything else for me. While I do occasionally stab things(cardboard mostly) with my knives, I never found a need to stab something rock solid or with much force, so nothing really tests the lock on the day job.
 
I don't quite see what the debate is about. A TI frame lock is as strong, if not stronger than a liner lock.
The only ways that I can see a liner lock fail are:

1. Disengaged by hand strength(grip), which is solved by the frame lock since the user's finger is the reinforcement.
2. The lock traveling all the way to the right so that it wedges between the scale and blade pivot, which again is solved by the frame lock due to it's fatter lock face.

Take this post....(great posts BTW)

hardheart said:
...Titanium is not "stronger" than all steels, but it has a better strength to weight ratio. A steel lockbar is stronger than a titanium one if they are the same dimensions, but the steel bar will weigh more.
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The weakest point on a TI frame lock is the thin cutout. So technically, the TI frame lock cutout can take as much stress, if not more, than a standard width stainless steel liner lock.
 
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