Wicked Edge / Edge Pro

I agree that there is a learning curve using the Edge Pro. I particularly like the stones (not the mess though!)

It seems that knives that are harder to sharpen on the Edge Pro, the W.E. works perfectly for and knives that the W.E. has a hard time with, the Edge Pro works perfectly.
 
BladeChemist said:
Edge Pro. I still haven't been convinced the W.E. has any advantage over the Edge Pro, save speed of sharpening. My personal opinion.

Put it another way, I wouldn't personally feel right sharpening knives professionally using the Wicked Edge. The Edge Pro, on the other hand, already has a proven track record. It also excels at sharpening any blade that can be lain flat on the blade table- especially full flat ground blades.

Take a look at their Sharpening Information Page. All of their grind profile images showcase knives with flat faces. Many Spydercos and numerous kitchen knives are full-flat ground. In the thick of things the edge it puts on these knives will be offset from center (unless the system uses corrective wedges? :confused:). Looking at some of their stock images (#1, #2, #3) they're using knives with a flat area, and in the beginning of their demo video they're also using a chef's knife that appears to have a flat area (it might be full flat ground, I can't tell). Where are all the full flat ground knives?? Additionally, looking at the their kit there is included "alignment tools" for precision mounting and a knife brace for flexible blades. I see these items as nothing more than trying to pad a design flaw. Sort of like installing extra support pillars on a building to correct a bad design, or solving the lack of flying ability of a rock by attaching a jet engine.

With all that said, the system will still put a very sharp edge on a knife, but I believe it has fundamental disadvantages that limit its use compared to the Edge Pro. If you have the money, go for it. My two cents.

P.S. - I'm also a bit worried about the sharpening motion the system uses- I would be inclined to use a pair of cut-resistant gloves when sharpening.
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In all fairness, most knives are NOT FFG. Go to any knife store, gun and knife show, ebay, etc. and look at the knives for sale. Most are not FFG. Check with people you work with, or better yet, contact a professional sharpener and ask them if FFG blades are a big part of his sharpening when it comes to knives.

In all reality, the blades sharpened the most will not be FFG. So the advantage is minimal there for the Edge Pro.

I have both and use both! They both work just in different ways.
 
I just bought the EP but I now found this thread. The WE seems an interesting system. However, two things about the WE are not clear to me:

- What is the narrowest angle possible with the WE?

- To me, the fact that the blade is fixed seems to imply that there will be a variation in angle along the edge, but I might be wrong.
 
fockewul said:
I just bought the EP but I now found this thread. The WE seems an interesting system. However, two things about the WE are not clear to me:

- What is the narrowest angle possible with the WE?

- To me, the fact that the blade is fixed seems to imply that there will be a variation in angle along the edge, but I might be wrong.
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The smallest angle mark on the WE is 15. What I don't know right now is if this is 15 degrees inclusive, or 15 per side for 30 inclusive. I did see a video where he was sharpening a CCK cleaver, and states he put a 9.8 degree bevel on the blade. Did he just slide the rods further in from the 15 degree mark? I don't know, but that thing slices paper thin slices of tomatoes. Impressive. http://www.youtube.com/user/clayallison1969#p/u/0/bBCeiTmYfwc

As for the angle variation, it doesn't seem like it would be much different than with the EP. If you look at the photo of the BM 710 posted in the first part of this thread, you'll notice the bevel widens as it nears the tip. To me, this indicates a slight narrowing of the edge bevel angle. It was sharpened/honed on an EP. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the EP results you get. As mentioned in my other post, both systems seem like they offer the best options of getting scary sharp edges. The EP is definitely a proven system, but I don't see the WE having problem establishing itself in the sharpening world as a top contender. I'll be able to tell more when my WE arrives, and I get to play with it. I have several knives I need to work on.
 
Medic1210 said:
The smallest angle mark on the WE is 15. What I don't know right now is if this is 15 degrees inclusive, or 15 per side for 30 inclusive. I did see a video where he was sharpening a CCK cleaver, and states he put a 9.8 degree bevel on the blade. Did he just slide the rods further in from the 15 degree mark? I don't know, but that thing slices paper thin slices of tomatoes. Impressive. http://www.youtube.com/user/clayallison1969#p/u/0/bBCeiTmYfwc

As for the angle variation, it doesn't seem like it would be much different than with the EP. If you look at the photo of the BM 710 posted in the first part of this thread, you'll notice the bevel widens as it nears the tip. To me, this indicates a slight narrowing of the edge bevel angle. It was sharpened/honed on an EP. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the EP results you get. As mentioned in my other post, both systems seem like they offer the best options of getting scary sharp edges. The EP is definitely a proven system, but I don't see the WE having problem establishing itself in the sharpening world as a top contender. I'll be able to tell more when my WE arrives, and I get to play with it. I have several knives I need to work on.
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I have read here in the forums that the WE has some mods or some accessories coming that will allow bevel angles of down to O degrees.

If you sharpen on the EP by hitting the blade near the center of the sharpening table the bevel angle will not narrow since your are always presenting the stone at a 90 degree angle relative to the blade. The slight widening can occur when the edge happens to be on a thicker part of the blade.
 
Medic1210 said:
If you look at the photo of the BM 710 posted in the first part of this thread, you'll notice the bevel widens as it nears the tip. To me, this indicates a slight narrowing of the edge bevel angle. It was sharpened/honed on an EP.
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That happens because of the blade grind gets thicker toward the tip of some blades.

Notice in these 2 photos that the bevel is even across the edge because the blade grind doesn't get thicker towards the tip.

Military.jpg


DSC_0908.JPG
 
Woohoo! Got some conversation going here now :D.

Never said the Edge Pro doesn't have it's disadvantages. I don't tape most of my blades anymore because I don't use the waterstones soaking wet anymore. You get a nice powered 'mud' on the edge bevel and if you wipe off the blade table and knife as you go scratches are minimal. That will probably change when I nervously begin to sharpen actual customer's knives...

I wouldn't use the W.E. for customer knives because I think the bevel increase near the tip looks unprofessional, excessive and ugly. Probably a relic from when I used my Lanksy system years ago and received the same result. I'm sure the effect is reduced with shorter knives, but still- it elicits a bad response from my mind.

Here's an interesting question: given the W.E. diamonds versus the E.P. water stones in the same person's hands, which will win in the following two categories: #knives per dollar spent on replacement stones and the greatest #knives sharpened in the least amount of time before the stones need replacing. Diamond stones don't work like shark teeth- when the diamond falls out it's gone. Or if the diamond is pressed into the substrate. Or if it get's ripped out. Or if it get's munched on by the iron in the blades (look into why diamonds lose out to things like boron nitride when used in industrial applications with ferrous alloys [afterthought- although that may be only applicable for high-speed cutting situations]).

As for the FFG statements- I'm thinking about customers and their kitchen knives. I guess my reasoning is coming from my own collection of cheap kitchen knives- many which are FFG. I'll conceed this point for now because I don't know the ratio of FFG to Saber-type grinds out there..probably see when I start sharpening for money.

With all that said, would I ever buy the W.E.? Yes! If I had the money and already had every aftermarket Japanese water stone, diamond stone, and strops for the Edge Pro, along with a deluxe Sharpmaker setup, paper wheels...then I would buy the W.E. Why? Because I want them all :D. At any rate, the W.E. serves a purpose, it produces very sharp knives, and it's not going away :p.
 
So I just saw bladechemist's thread on sharpening FFG blades on the EP. Am I going to have to do some complicated ritual or math equations just to sharpen my tenacious?



Also can someone explain to me why it's necessary to tape the blades while using the EP?
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
So I just saw bladechemist's thread on sharpening FFG blades on the EP. Am I going to have to do some complicated ritual or math equations just to sharpen my tenacious?
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There's a quick way of determining the proper angle on FFG blades, I have asked Ankerson to post a step by step method of how that's done.



CrimsonTideShooter said:
Also can someone explain to me why it's necessary to tape the blades while using the EP?
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The slurry of the waterstones that fall on the sharpening table might scratch the sides of your blades. I don't tape because all my knives are users, so scratches don't matter.
 
BladeChemist said:
Woohoo! Got some conversation going here now :D.

Never said the Edge Pro doesn't have it's disadvantages. I don't tape most of my blades anymore because I don't use the waterstones soaking wet anymore. You get a nice powered 'mud' on the edge bevel and if you wipe off the blade table and knife as you go scratches are minimal. That will probably change when I nervously begin to sharpen actual customer's knives...

I wouldn't use the W.E. for customer knives because I think the bevel increase near the tip looks unprofessional, excessive and ugly. Probably a relic from when I used my Lanksy system years ago and received the same result. I'm sure the effect is reduced with shorter knives, but still- it elicits a bad response from my mind.

Here's an interesting question: given the W.E. diamonds versus the E.P. water stones in the same person's hands, which will win in the following two categories: #knives per dollar spent on replacement stones and the greatest #knives sharpened in the least amount of time before the stones need replacing. Diamond stones don't work like shark teeth- when the diamond falls out it's gone. Or if the diamond is pressed into the substrate. Or if it get's ripped out. Or if it get's munched on by the iron in the blades (look into why diamonds lose out to things like boron nitride when used in industrial applications with ferrous alloys [afterthought- although that may be only applicable for high-speed cutting situations]).

As for the FFG statements- I'm thinking about customers and their kitchen knives. I guess my reasoning is coming from my own collection of cheap kitchen knives- many which are FFG. I'll conceed this point for now because I don't know the ratio of FFG to Saber-type grinds out there..probably see when I start sharpening for money.

With all that said, would I ever buy the W.E.? Yes! If I had the money and already had every aftermarket Japanese water stone, diamond stone, and strops for the Edge Pro, along with a deluxe Sharpmaker setup, paper wheels...then I would buy the W.E. Why? Because I want them all :D. At any rate, the W.E. serves a purpose, it produces very sharp knives, and it's not going away :p.
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The bevel does not increase near the tip. It is the same bevel across the entire blade. What is happening is that most knives are thicker near the tip, so in order to keep the same angle, you have to remove more metal near the tip, which looks like an increase in angle. The only way to prevent that from happening on any sharpener, including the Edge Pro, is to increase the sharpening angle near the tip. Kind of like lifting the knife blade when approaching the tip when using bench stones.

There is a video on the Wicked Edge website that demonstrates this by using a blade that is 11 inches long and a digital guage showing the consistant angle across the entire blade. http://www.wickededgeusa.com/FAQ.html

Almost all the knives from production makers are thicker near the tip (for strength I suppose)

Interesting question about which stones would last longer. You have to remember, when buying a stone for the W.E., you are getting two different grits, in effect 4 different stones. They will wear at half the rate since you are using one stone for one side of the blade and another stone for the other side of the blade. Where with the Edge Pro you are using the same stone for both sides. I have used my W.E to sharpen about 20 knives so far with no wear noticed at all. I do see some diamond dust on the table after sharpening though.

Depending on the width of the knife, you can get down to some pretty low angles on the W.E.
The scale goes down to 15 degrees, but you can back the adjustment up even further. I have put 10 degree bevels on some of my knives. I believe that is about the same as the Edge Pro Apex.
 
I have often wondered how the varying thickness of the Edge Pro stones affects the edge of a knife. I know that after inital use, each stone will wear at a different rate and when "straightening" the stones, they will inevitably be different thickness.

You would think that this would affect the final edge on the knife.

However, when progressing through the different grits, even with stones of greatly different wear on them, I have noticed no real world differences.

Just thought I would throw that out there to those that feel that the W.E. has a real advantage in that the stones are always flat (with no maintenance required) and always the same thickness.
 
One other disadvantage I have with the Edge Pro is the scratching of the blade. This is a real concern if you are sharpening a customers knife and it is a very valuable knife.

I have taped the blade and the table and still, there have been times where there are scratches left. Especially if you need to do a lot of metal removal. It is frustrating!

It can be avoided if you slooow down and really wipe the table and blade every few swipes, but then you are moving at a snails pace. This is one area where the W.E. is better in my opinion. As mentioned above, if you think it is unprofessional to have an uneven bevel (towards the tip of the knife) it is really unprofessional to return a knife to a customer with a scratch on an otherwise perfect blade.
 
The bevel cross section still increases towards the tip. Either way it's ugly and it looks unprofessional.

I'm trying to visualize why that is. Can it really keep the same angle? Or is it bisecting at a more acute angle to produce a larger cross-section? As mentioned, it may also be the thicker steel at the tip. I'm guess a combination of thicker steel and a more acute angle. Dammit, I'm trying to think of it mathematically- it's a plane (sharpening stone) bisecting an object. Sort of like how a cone can be bisected by a plane to produce either a circle, ellipse, parabola, or even a triangle.
 
I might be wrong, but according to my (short) experience with the EP, it seems that if you want to keep the angle and width of the bevel consistent throughout the blade, you have to sharpen the blade using only the width of the table AND rotate the blade as you sharpen near the tip, so that the movement of the stone is perpendicular to the bevel. The more pronounced the curvature of a given section of the bevel is, the more you have to rotate the blade in order to keep perpendicularity. Of course, this is easier said that done, but with a bit of practice it becomes easier. Ben Dale demonstrates this quite well in is EP Apex learning videos.

This is only possible in a system that doesn't immobilize the blade and it was one of the reasons I chose the EP.
 
BladeChemist said:
The bevel cross section still increases towards the tip. Either way it's ugly and it looks unprofessional.

I'm trying to visualize why that is. Can it really keep the same angle? Or is it bisecting at a more acute angle to produce a larger cross-section? As mentioned, it may also be the thicker steel at the tip. I'm guess a combination of thicker steel and a more acute angle. Dammit, I'm trying to think of it mathematically- it's a plane (sharpening stone) bisecting an object. Sort of like how a cone can be bisected by a plane to produce either a circle, ellipse, parabola, or even a triangle.
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I thought I had it figured out then got a headache thinking about it. I had a fellow put an electronic angle guage on the Wicked Edge, and he put a ruler in the clamp. He showed the angle from one end to the other and it only changed an insignificant amount.

I have had the same thing happen with the E.P. (point of blade appears to have an increased bevel). This happened on my K-Bar.

For some reason it seems worse when using the Lansky or GATCO Sharpeners.
 
ricklee4570 said:
I thought I had it figured out then got a headache thinking about it. I had a fellow put an electronic angle guage on the Wicked Edge, and he put a ruler in the clamp. He showed the angle from one end to the other and it only changed an insignificant amount.

I have had the same thing happen with the E.P. (point of blade appears to have an increased bevel). This happened on my K-Bar.

For some reason it seems worse when using the Lansky or GATCO Sharpeners.
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Huh, weird. I suppose the Lansky systems don't have a single pivot point for the angle guide like the W.E. does- they have slits where the rod can move back and forth. I bet that contributes to the increased bevel (thinking about I believe it does).

We need to get some videos of W.E. sharpened knives cutting things, come on people :D.

Oh, and looking at the W.E. design- It actually does look like it has continuously variable angles- or at the vary least it appears you can choose half-degrees if you don't screw down the angle guide into the pre-drilled holes? Anyone want to weigh in on that?
 
Most of your WE questions can be answered by visting their website... he has some photos showing the angle change on longer blades, video showing clamping a FFG blade, etc. And you're right, the guide can be set without using the indents, in fact, you can "reverse" it, and not use the indent side at all.

cbw
 
singularity35 said:
There's a quick way of determining the proper angle on FFG blades, I have asked Ankerson to post a step by step method of how that's done.
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  1. Set the angle desired
  2. Put Blade on the table, on the Hilt, that's the flat spot of the blade by the handle
  3. Carefully make a flat spot on the edge with light passes until a burr is formed
  4. Mark the Flat spot with a sharpie
  5. Adjust the angle up
  6. Put the blade back on the table with the edge flat now
  7. Test the angle and adjust as needed until the sharpie mark is gone
  8. Now the angle is set correctly and you can sharpen at the correct angle.
 
No offense, but that is still confusing to me. Possibly because I don't have the EP right in front of me.



Ankerson said:
  1. Set the angle desired
  2. Put Blade on the table, on the Hilt, that's the flat spot of the blade by the handle
  3. Carefully make a flat spot on the edge with light passes until a burr is formed
  4. Mark the Flat spot with a sharpie
  5. Adjust the angle up
  6. Put the blade back on the table with the edge flat now
  7. Test the angle and adjust as needed until the sharpie mark is gone
  8. Now the angle is set correctly and you can sharpen at the correct angle.
Click to expand...
 
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