Wicked Edge / Edge Pro

However, I'm still not sure if you're correctly understanding the point I've been trying to make, and if I could ask one thing of you it would be to explain why the previously described 'one mile long knife/guide rod' example is false. I believe it's very clear that the system as it stands produces an edge whose angle becomes lower and bevel becomes larger as it nears the tip- but that the effect isn't necessarily significant.
You said it yourself, the effect isn't necessarily significant. The length of a very long blade is not critical, that is a good thing about the length of the guide rod. You cannot extend it so far that it allows you to make very large changes to the sharpening angle while still working comfortably. So, for a long blade, you sharpen the straight portion of the edge, then move the tip closer to the clamp, until you hopefully place it in a position where the angle is still roughly the same.

This is going to be an almost automatic action for the user, they will naturally want the stroke of the stone to be similar. Even if the angle in reference to the table surface changes, the start/stop distance of the sharpening stroke will be maintained by positioning of the blade. If the stone touches the edge at the same spot, then it means two legs of the right triangle are both the same, so all the angles are as well. It will 'look right' because the angled distance from the tip to the clamp will appear about the same as the vertical distance from the clamp to the cutting edge directly above it, what I was trying to show in the pic.
 
Okay,

Edge shoulders do not get thicker towards the point because of intentional designs for strength (okay maybe a few makers actually worry about it but I'm referring to the vast majority). They get thicker towards the point because they have to --unless the blade is either rectangular without a point OR the spine drops down to make a point meeting a perfectly straight edge (wharncliffe or sheep's foot pattern).

I don't have a good graphics program working so please excuse the ghetto nature of this drawing, but I just knocked it out really quickly. I'm simplifying here--most knifemakers "roll" a knife as they grind it when they hit the belly and don't hold an angle perfectly consistent to the spine, but the basic principle is the same. If you're planning to sharpen professionally, you need to understand this---you do NOT have a choice as to whether the edge bevel gets wider towards the point, unless you intentionally change the angle as you go. If the edge bevel angle is consistent and your knife comes to a point, then it absolutely MUST get wider towards the point, with only one exception which I'll talk about at the bottom.

Now, look at this very crude drawing of two flat ground "blades"---the top one is a square blade with no point, and the bottom is a blade of exactly the same height but which curves up into a point. The smaller drawings to the side are as if you were looking directly at the front of each.


So, let's pretend (these are not realistic measurements--I'm trying to keep the math simple for the example) that the knives are 1/4" thick at the spine and 1/16" thick by the time the primary grind has descended the whole height of the blade. So, when sharpening, the two new bevels each need to remove 1/32" of total thickness in order to meet in the middle and make a cutting edge. Okay, the knife on top is perfectly rectangular. The edge shoulder intersects the primary grind at exactly the same height along the whole blade. As such, the bevel is exactly the same width along the entire blade.



Now move to the other blade---remember, they're exactly the same height to begin with, but wait! The height of the second blade is decreasing as it moves toward the point. It's still 1/4" thick up top, but that primary grind is having less and less space to remove thickness up front. In fact, at half the blade height (the middle blue line in the second knife) the blade has only dropped down to 1/8" thick at the edge. So now, in order to meet in the middle, the bevels need to each remove 1/16" of thickness. If the angle at which the edge is ground remains the same along the entire length of the blade, then the width of the bevel absolutely MUST get wider as the edge shoulder gets thicker. I drew this on lined paper for a reason---look at the height of the profile of the blade at any blue line going up and then move over to the straight-on shot right next to it and see how much thicker the cross section of the blade is at the same height. There is no way around it. The red line with "X"s in it represents the bevel you're envisioning, but the wider, solid red line above it is the actual bevel.



The only way you could keep the bevel the same width is to increase the edge angle (getting steeper and steeper as you move towards the point). Regardless of which you think looks more professional, that's the end of it. In fact, intentionally creating the illusion of an "even" bevel by thickening the cutting edge up front, essentially reducing the cutting performance in order to achieve an aesthetic effect, actually WOULD be unprofessional.

Now, I mentioned an exception:
If the primary bevel was ground in way to keep the cross section consistent throughout the length, obviously that would be different. If the knife has a distal taper so that the spine gets thinner as it moves towards the tip, and it happened to do so in a perfect ratio so that it was the same percentage reduction in thickness as the percentage reduction in blade height along the entire length of the blade, your consistent-angle edge bevel would also have a consistent height. I will point out, though, that I have something like five dozen knives with distal tapers (or more) and none of them have the ratio right--they still end up a little thicker at the tip.

On almost all knives, your edge bevel will widen as you move towards the tip if you are keeping a consistent angle.

Oh, and yes, depending where you clamp the blade (and how long it is) a clamp system will vary the angle slightly as your stone moves away from where the blade is clamped. However, we're talking differences of one or two degrees at most unless it's a large blade, and then you can move the clamp. Some small variation will still occur from sharpening to sharpening, but it will be slight and NOT result in a dangerously fragile, thin tip that you need to worry about. At least, not unless your whole edge is dangerously thin and fragile.
 
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Well, to me, the point is that for everything else, you move/adjust something anyway. If the blade is long or the belly very deep, you reposition it on the Edgepro when you approach the tip. If the blade isn't a wharncliffe of sheepsfoot, you adjust your wrist relative to the stone when freehanding. There's no reason to not reposition the blade in a Wicked Edge, and the fact that the angle will change if you don't change some other measure is pretty basic to all sharpening methods.

Right on! There is no reason at all not to reposition the blade if maintaining the same edge bevel and angles are the goal! However, I'm sure that the instruction manual tells people NOT to do so. I usually throw away instruction manuals. :D
I want a device to function the way "I" want it to, with the results that "I" want, so I'll do what ever is necessary to achieve that goal.

The W.E. owners say they love the fact that they don't 'have to' reposition the blade, so it makes for faster sharpening. They are willing to put up with a slightly different looking edge. Other folks are going to want to reposition the blade to get a more consistent bevel, taking all of a few extra seconds to do so, and the only ones to complain will be the anally-retentive souls who must follow the instructions to the letter. No problem with that either. We all do what we like, right? It's a hobby, not something we are doing for merit badges or college credits. :thumbup:

Stitchawl
 
Medic1210

I'm not talking about the videos the manufacturers made to sell their system, I'm talking about user-submitted reviews and videos of either the system being used or more importantly- images and cutting tests of the resulting blade edge. You and others in this thread have purchased the system so I was hoping someone would demonstrate how it performs. This isn't a malicious request- I'm genuinely curious about, for instance, what grit begins to produce what cutting effect. What do the bevels look like for a variety of blades? If you've already purchased the W.E., would you recommend buying the strops for it right off the bat as I assume they're needed for the finest edge possible?

Well, it's not like the videos Clay has posted are production level pieces. They're no different than any other YouTube video other than the fact they're done by the person who co-designed the system. Not sure what part of ruining an edge with a bastard file, and restoring it in less than 5 minutes to razor sharp would be different if it was done by a regular user. At any rate, I will try to make some videos with mine, but you're gonna have to wait until mid December, as I'm currently in Afghanistan and won't be home until the 15th December. Not making any promises though, as I imagine my couple weeks home will be mostly spent enjoying time with my family, who hasn't seen me in several months. I do plan on playing with my new WE on my knives though, so I'll do what I can to get some videos. As for the strops, I went ahead and purchased everything up front since they were offering the 20% discount. I figured I might as well save as much money as I could. Only thing I didn't buy were the rounded stones. After hearing that HandAmerican offers Diamond paste in 0.25 micron and 0.5 micron grits, I may purchase another set of strops for the WE. Or I may just use one of the two sets I purchased with that grit level instead of one of the grits offered from WE. Who knows. From looking at knife nut's video, it seems when you get down to that level of polishing, even the dust in the air has a larger grain, and will mar your edge. Of course, I imagine this is only visible under high magnification. Oh well, we'll see.
 
Fact--if the blade is straight (no cuvature, think plane blade) it doesn't matter if the blade is 12 inches long, the angle on the W.E. Is not changing, and no, you don't have to reclamp. Simple geometry. Any change in angle would be so slight to not be noticeable.

Go to the local high school and ask the teacher who teaches geometry.
 
Fact--if the blade is straight (no cuvature, think plane blade) it doesn't matter if the blade is 12 inches long, the angle on the W.E. Is not changing, and no, you don't have to reclamp. Simple geometry. Any change in angle would be so slight to not be noticeable.

Go to the local high school and ask the teacher who teaches geometry.

Geometry tells me that if the hypotenuse of a triangle increases, an adjacent angle has to change. As the base angle is locked in by the adjustment of the pivot guide, it must be the other adjacent angle that changes. This is the same principle that allows me to get a shallower angle on my DMT Aligner by added a 3" extension to the clamp jaws. The further away from the pivot, the smaller the angle.


Stitchawl
 
Read Clays explanation in this thread. If you move the blade further out in the clamp then the angle changes.

Its like the windshield wiper on a car. The angle is constant throughout the entire swiping action.
 
Another way that I visualize it is like this. How does the angle increase if the blade is straight? The reach increases, the distance increases, not the angle.

So in order to keep the angle the same, the blade would have to curve inwards constantly as the distance increases? If you were to exagerate that, if you had a 50 foot blade it would literally be bent into a full circle to maintain the angle. Extreme way of looking at it I know!

There is a difference between moving the blade further out in the clamp. This changes the angle throughout the entire blade surface.
 
How does the angle increase if the blade is straight? The reach increases, the distance increases, not the angle.
It is physically impossible for the angle to stay the same is you change the reach/distance. The point where you lock it in on the graduated bar becomes a fixed distance along the entire sharpening stroke. So one leg of the triangle is the same, along with one right angle, for every point along the curve of the edge. The other angles have to change when the length of the legs change.

And it would have to be a circle to maintain the same angle. A circle has a constant radius, which is the max/min distance you can contact the edge with the stone for the exact same angle. In 3D, adding in the guide rod pivot point, making a full rotation at the same angle would generate a cone. That's why I'm saying if you move the knife you can keep exactly the same angle, the part of the edge you want to sharpen has to contact that circle/base of the cone.

But since the guide rod is not a foot or a mile long, you can't throw the angle off an extreme amount. Forethought in clamping the blade down will minimize it.

This is the sharpening angle.
157ceuq.png
 
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Because my english is not very good I got my son to write this and won't be responding to follow-ups. He has a busy sales position.

As Clay correctly said, if the edge is straight the bevel angle will not change, regardless how far we move away from the pivot point, despite that the angle between the guide rod and the blade reduces. What has to be taken into account is that the stone rotates in relation to the guide rod and continues to cut at the same angle as it did whilst closer to the pivot points. But if the blade is curved near the tip, as it nearly always is, the angle will decrease.

Frank
 
Nope, the angle has to change. Consider the extreme example I posted and realize the effect still exists for smaller blade lengths. It's just not really significant at the smaller scale.
 
We are dealing with a simple right triangle here. If the leg opposite the right angle (the hypotenuse) increases, as it must in order to reach further away from the pivot point as it moves to the front of the blade, the angle of the hypotenuse (stone in this case) to the opposite leg must decrease, especially in a straight bladed knife.

Stitchawl
 
Clay and Frank Hillary are correct. You can model this yourself with string and a box (don't need no stinkin' cad program).

The left side of the box represents the vertical position of the knife. The front right corner represents the axis of the stone. The string shows the angles for three different stone placements on a long blade. When you tilt the box and look down the angles, you can see they are all the same. No matter how far you go down a straight edge, the sharpening angle remains the same. It doesn't change until the blade starts to curve.


DSC01649.jpg

DSC01652.jpg
 
Wow, there is a lot of great info in this thread, but it still hasn't made deciding between the WE and the EP systems any easier for me! I can see the pros and cons of both systems, just h ard to decide which outweighs the other.
 
No matter how far you go down a straight edge, the sharpening angle remains the same. It doesn't change until the blade starts to curve.
Was someone saying the angle on the straight section of edge was being altered along the blade length? I thought we were still trying to explain how the bevel width changes at the tip from two factors - blade thickness changes near the tip, and sharpening angle changes as you move away from the sharpening tool's base and into the belly's curve. I guess I should have added in the edge profile to the cad drawing along with the new sharpening angle to better show this.

Really, who has ever had the bevel along a straight edge change width on a guided system? I've never seen that at all.

BTW, the only thing I see with the string on cardboard model is that it doesn't cover the issue we face in sharpening a certain way. Applying force in the only direction we are allowed to move the stone on the guide rod (along the length of the arm) means you will remove steel from the blade at an angle. Sweeping it along the edge is fine, with movement only from the pivot - that is the force you would have from that picture lining up the string. But if you swing it out 45 degrees and then start scrubbing up and down on the rod you will not be applying force on the same plane, and then you are removing metal at a different angle, just like when working on the curve. The issue we have with doing stuff by hand.

Man, I am having a really difficult time typing this out the way I want it to read.
 
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Clay and Frank Hillary are correct. You can model this yourself with string and a box (don't need no stinkin' cad program).

The left side of the box represents the vertical position of the knife. The front right corner represents the axis of the stone. The string shows the angles for three different stone placements on a long blade. When you tilt the box and look down the angles, you can see they are all the same. No matter how far you go down a straight edge, the sharpening angle remains the same. It doesn't change until the blade starts to curve.

I tried it myself, and you're right! It's only the width of the bevel that changes due to the increased length of the guide arm/stone, not the sharpening angle! Who'd a'thunk it?!? :eek:
The 3D factor had me completely buffaloed! Thanks for show me the light!

Stitchawl
 
A decent knife should have a distal taper that lets the thickness of the edge be similar to the thickness of the tip. It isn't that difficult.

If the thickness is similar, then the width of the edge should be similar.

According to the visual trig, if a guided system is 1.5" from centerline of spine, and is cutting the edge at 4" away, then it is a 17*ish angle. If you are cutting 5" away from support, the angle is 12*ish. The increase would be even more drastic at lower edge angles.

At a certain point the stone will ride on the top of the sharpened edge due to it's lower angle, and will grind a much wider bevel.

This is why forethought in setup or particular knife designs minimize the problem, as keeping the length of the stone holder arm similar through the length of the blade will keep the angle similiar. Setting up in such a way that the stone holder arm is significantly longer while sharpening the tip will leave a much wider bevel/shallower angle at the tip.

On longer blades with smaller systems, you can watch the angles change at the extreme reach of the system, which is why they must be reset on the longer blades. I would expect the larger systems to have LESS of a problem, because the longer stone holder arm would require a much smaller percentage of change.
 
Has this thread gone to parody? I honestly can't tell anymore :( . The string and cardboard thing- is that sincere or mocking? Someone please clarify things for me before I go on.
 
Has this thread gone to parody? I honestly can't tell anymore :( . The string and cardboard thing- is that sincere or mocking? Someone please clarify things for me before I go on.

No parody, but I do think several of us are discussing different angles, and this could be where a lot of the confusions arises.

There is a difference in the width of the bevel caused by difference in the length from the pivot point to edge. I think this can be seen clearly on any larger blade sharpened without moving the blade in relation to the pivot.

This is why when using the EdgePro, it's advised to always sharpen over the table, turning the knife so the stone arm is at 90 degrees to the edge.

This, I believe, is what EdgePro users don't like about the W.E. system.

Stitchawl
 
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