Wilderness skills = hobby

A related frustration is the repeated suggestion that some or most of the members here are going out and chopping live trees for fun. I realize that many of us hit our local trails and see things that make us a little sick, like chopping thick branches from live trees or leaving garbage. But a pervasive theme at this forum has always been stout conservationism and the belief that we must all be good stewards of the lands we enjoy. I've not ever seen a person argue against this. I use nothing but deadwood for any task, fun or otherwise, and don't condone chopping live trees either.

Yet there seems to be a resurgence of threads almost pointing the proverbial finger at the masses of WSS, that we're wasteful, inconsiderate rapers of land. In fact, these threads are consistently preaching to the choir, to people who have already chosen to be good stewards of the land they inhabit.

My point or suggestion is to simply leave the soapbox at home, rather than alienate a large number of people. The folks causing the damage you see in the woods are not terribly likely to also be members of a BF:WSS forum.
 
I agree with Spooky,

Runningboar,

It sounds to me like you need to write a letter to your local newspaper and parks department. You would be way more effective in providing a solution to your local issue than accuse BFW&S members of trying to conquear nature.
 
A related frustration is the repeated suggestion that some or most of the members here are going out and chopping live trees for fun.

This is what caused me to get on my soapbox, also despite what you said when I mentioned not chopping live trees rousing applause is not what I recieved. The hobby of survivalism is not usually what I would call low impact, if I alienate a few people so be it, the reason for message boards in the first place is to exchange ideas, information and even opinions. If you do not care for mine, take it for what it is worth......absolutely nothing, except to me. Chris

EDIT: I also didn't accuse anyone of anything, I simply stated my opinions on a subject already started.
 
Hi Chris-

My comments were really not directed at you. You've always just stated they way you feel about a subject without pointing fingers and being condescending.

One of the reasons I liked this thread's beginning is because it suggests praise for the terminology of 'bushcraft'. I very much prefer this term to describe my hobbies, as it suggests these conservationist beliefs and low impact. It doesn't involve destroying your surroundings to get by, not that a 'survivalist' necessarily does this either.

Perhaps my view is skewed in believing, from what I've read and who I've met here, that most established WSS members are simply good woodsmen, long term campers/hikers/backpackers who are used to making a little impact as they can manage, so that the trails will be there for them the next year.

It's so easy for us all to get along well and enjoy discussing what we do, but recently some threads seem divisive in nature.
 
Many years I went camping with a couple of folks who turned out to be really into the "leave no trace" philosophy. They would put water in their food bowls and swish it around, collecting the graywater with bits of food in it and then drink it - rather than dump it on the ground even though it was obviously biodegradable. At the end of the backpacking trip, they climbed back into their SUV and drove back to their 4000+ square foot home.

Anyways, they made a real impression on me. They saw themselves as environmentally responsible people and practiced what they believed - when they went into nature, they left no trace - literally. But when they got to the trailhead, nature stopped from them. They returned to their lifestyle of comfort and luxury that would leave more enduring traces on nature then anything they could possibly accomplish camping.

I don't think the fact that the average American lifestyle is so destructive to the environment should be an excuse for going into the woods and chopping down a bunch of living trees. But I also don't think it's a good idea to lose perspective - nature does not begin and stop at the trailhead leading into the forest. Nature is everywhere - even buried under the asphalt jungle of Manhattan.

I don't equate chopping in the forest with leaving feces with wads of toilet paper (I've seen it in the middle of the trail in the Rockies - can you imagine just taking a dump literally in the middle of the trail and then topping it off with a wad of toilet paper - who are these people? :confused:) or other trashing of the woods. But I have been in campsites where there is no downed dead wood and watched drunken macho guys with big knives start chopping down live trees to feed their bonfire. RB is absolutely right, it is an issue.

I think psy-ops does have a point - if more people were interested in going into the woods and building a shelter with a khukri, ultimately we would have more woods and less strip malls. But the fact is, that isn't going to happen - it's just wishful thinking. In the meantime, we have to take care of what we got and tread lightly.

my .02 for what it's worth
 
Back to Psy-ops original premise, I agree that bushcraft is a hobby, and a good one. I have a friend on WSS who is patiently mentoring me through the mysteries of starting a fire with bow and drill. We all know that there are easier ways to start a fire, in a survival situation, but that's not the point. Studying and practicing primitive skills is a satisfying end in itself.

Regarding Runningboar's remarks, I took them as a positive and firm reminder to look out for the environment that we all enjoy. I've also seen the trash and situations that he mentions. Leaving the woods and open lands in an unmarked way, as we found them, is not just good manners, it's good survival strategy...don't leave any sign or trail behind you.


Edit: Here's my soapbox - There are infuential people in this world who would deny us the right of even hiking through wilderness areas (because of overuse), let alone hunting, fishing and camping. We all owe it to ourselves to write letters to the editor or Parks & Rec. I think members of WSS are probably some of the best stewards of wilderness areas (and this may be off topic for some WSS members) but I think we should align ourselves with hiking clubs, conservation groups, fish and game clubs and even shooting clubs. We talk a lot about SHTF situations and retreating to the wilderness (that's another story) but as long as we're practicing in the wilderness we have a responsibility to get involved with wilderness management. End of soapbox.
 
A related frustration is the repeated suggestion that some or most of the members here are going out and chopping live trees for fun. I realize that many of us hit our local trails and see things that make us a little sick, like chopping thick branches from live trees or leaving garbage. But a pervasive theme at this forum has always been stout conservationism and the belief that we must all be good stewards of the lands we enjoy. I've not ever seen a person argue against this. I use nothing but deadwood for any task, fun or otherwise, and don't condone chopping live trees either.

Yet there seems to be a resurgence of threads almost pointing the proverbial finger at the masses of WSS, that we're wasteful, inconsiderate rapers of land. In fact, these threads are consistently preaching to the choir, to people who have already chosen to be good stewards of the land they inhabit.

My point or suggestion is to simply leave the soapbox at home, rather than alienate a large number of people. The folks causing the damage you see in the woods are not terribly likely to also be members of a BF:WSS forum.
This is annoying to me too. Constantly preaching on this forum about conservation when I have only seen good practices in all the threads. If you have a specific complaint about something or what someone has posted fine but to continually preach about it, especially on this forum is lame. Go to an atv or mountain biking site and do the preaching.
 
This is annoying to me too. Constantly preaching on this forum about conservation when I have only seen good practices in all the threads. If you have a specific complaint about something or what someone has posted fine but to continually preach about it, especially on this forum is lame. Go to an atv or mountain biking site and do the preaching.

As I said, they are my opinions and I am free to state them regardless of how lame you think they are, my only suggestion to you is to use the ignore function. I never once accused or even suggested that anyone on this site is a pig like I have described. Chris
 
I'm surprised that some members here want to stifle debate and discussion. Some people here seem to protest. A lot.

If you're not the problem, great. Like runningboar, I am stating my opinions based on what I've seen here and in my local areas as well as Oregon, Washington, and California. If you don't like what I have to say about certain known issues, well, too bad. All I'm trying to do is encourage and educate some of the young, high testosterone members of this forum treat the outdoors with respect. Respect for your fellow outdoorsmen and respect for the lifeforms that live in the place you're visiting.
 
Alrighty then. Since the original post, I've done a bit of thinking and self examination on the premise, that "Survival = Hobby", and the further explanation of the OP's wider meaning to not restrict the word "survival" to it's literal meaning, but rather to the more descriptive term "bushcraft" (which I might term "woodcraft). I can see how for many people it is just a pleasant occasional diversion, an excuse to get out and enjoy the natural world, or to play with their favorite knives. Nothing wrong with that at all.

As many have said, bushcraft is just a hobby. "Hobbies" implies a recreational pursuit undertaken for enjoyment and relaxation. And as with most hobbies, people participate at whatever level their interest leads them to. Some people turn a hobby into a business. Some people just fantisize about participating. And some people pour all their energy, extra cash and free time into it. Likewise, levels of "expertise" vary widely, as do the environments in which bushcraft is practiced.


As an aside and of no real consequence, to the notion that "Bushcraft" is a new term, I offer the word from the consumate source (If it is on WIKI, it HAS to be true!):
Before the recent popularity of Ray Mears and his programmes, the term was also used by the Irish-born Australian writer Richard Graves and Canadian bushcraft teacher Mors Kochanski. The word has been used in its current sense in Australia at least as far back as the 1800s. The accompanying term Bushman (in the sense of someone adept in bushcraft) has been used in South Africa and Australia since a similar time. It is more common to hear the term bushcrafter to describe someone interested in bushcraft.

The term was used in the following books (amongst others):

The History of Australian Exploration from 1788 to 1888 by Ernest Favenc; published in 1888.
My Brilliant Career by Miles Franklin; published in 1901.
Campaign Pictures of the War in South Africa (1899-1900) by A. G. Hales; published in 1901.
The Explorers of Australia and their Life-work by Ernest Favenc; published in 1908.
We of the Never-Never by Jeannie Gunn; published in 1908.
The Life of Captain Matthew Flinders by Ernest Scott; published in 1914.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushcraft


As to the alternately used term, Woodcraft:

Woodcraft is a recreational/educational program devised by Ernest Thompson Seton in 1902, for young people based on camping, outdoor skills and crafts. Thompson Seton's Woodcraft ideas were incorporated into the early Scout movement, but also in many other organisations in many countries.

In the UK, John Hargrave developed the ideas and founded the Kindred of the Kibbo Kift and the Westlakes founded the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry. The main surviving UK organisation is the Woodcraft Folk who broke away from Kibbo Kift in the 1920s.

Many groups were founded elsewhere in Europe in the inter-war years. Typical was the Czech Woodcraft League, founded in the 1920s by Milos Seifert; it grew in its early years but was suppressed for half a century, first by the Nazis and then by the Communists. It survived by guile and misdirection, emerging with the fall of Communism, a small but dedicated organisation with members of all ages.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodcraft

Origins? Earliest I find with the brief search is a passage by Sir Walter Scott in Chapter 33 of Ivanhoe (1819)

"That will be but blind trust," said the Outlaw; "we will retain thee, Prior, and send them to fetch thy ransom. Thou shalt not want a cup of wine and a collop of venison the while; and if thou lovest woodcraft, thou shalt see such as your north country never witnessed."

Alrighty then, back to the original question as it pertains to me. I don't think of my acquiring survival/woodcraft/bushcraft skills as a hobby, but rather a life long pursuit. My interest, as best I can recall, has been there all of my life. Even before I began the "hobby" of collecting and researching knives and cutleries.

But I guess it depends on how an individual defines "hobby". Or the other three terms, "Survival, Bushcraft, Woodcraft". Does my livlihood depend on it daily? No, but my survival (strictest definition) has been made possible by it quite a few times in my life. My daily life has been enriiched by all of the adjunct "hobbies" this core interest has spawned. But still, I don't think of the core interest as a hobby. "Lifeskills" maybe.

Codger
 
Yep. Hunter gatherrer cultures work ~15 % of the time whereas we work ~85% of the time.

Yuk.
 
I find it interesting that such a nice lead-off idea has turned into a pee-pee match about semantics. I expect that from the car boards I visit, but I am not accustomed to it here. Perhaps I've been away from BF too long... Or not long enough? Well, it's nice to be back anyways. Happy New Year!
 
This is annoying to me too. Constantly preaching on this forum about conservation when I have only seen good practices in all the threads. If you have a specific complaint about something or what someone has posted fine but to continually preach about it, especially on this forum is lame. Go to an atv or mountain biking site and do the preaching.


Shotgun, Spooky, your points are well taken. However, I don't recall any constant or continual preaching about conservation on WSS, or anyone accusing us of being inconsiderate rapers of the land.

Don't confuse conservation with the environmentalist movement. They are two different animals.

I'm not much of a hunter anymore, but I do support hunting because fees from hunting and fishing licenses make up the great bulk of money that goes towards wildlife management or what I would call conservation. This is what supports the fish and game agencies in our various states.

The environmentalist movement, as represented by groups like GreenPeace, PETA, the Sierra Club, Defenders of Wildlife, etc., contribute much much less (sorry, I don't have any figures, you can Google them). In my personal opinion, I think their agenda is to see all of us and the fish and game agencies to just dry up and blow away.
 
Coldwood, the two gentlemen have been accusing the forum members of being less than sensitive to the environment over at least three thread at this point.

They've not only not gotten their strident point across, but may actually have harmed their own viewpoint.
 
I think the biggest problem we're starting to see (where I live) is, as the fuel supply gets lower they're starting to dig deeper for coal and trying to promote this "coal-to-fuel" program. So these coal barons are all clamoring for that next seam and people are selling out the land to be torn all to hell by mountaintop removal. They're getting ready to build a hydroelectric dam and coal related companies' panties are in a bunch. They keep saying "Why would somebody put a hydro dam in coal country? Don't they know they'll cost people jobs? I say "Good. Cause at the rate you people are raping the land, you're gonna cost people their LIVES". I don't know about anybody else but when I walk back into the top of a mountain the other side is slicked and stepped with about three trees replanted I just about wanna beat somebody's head in.
Not to mention all the land that's being raped for building materials and just because Joe Moneybags wants split pine siding on his house instead of vinyl dutch lap.
I'm bad for joking and saying "I've got enough hills that all I have to do is pick a direction and run"...but what scares the hell out of me is, that, one day (the way things are going) there won't be any forested hills and mountains left.
I know people say "write a letter to your representative"...got news for you, ladies and gents, money talks and a letter to the congressman from Mr. Shawn E. Nobody ain't loud enough to scream over it.

To illustrate a point: A logging company went onto my Uncle's land, without his permission (because the old b*tch that lived beside him lied and told them it was hers), and cut down every large tree they could find. The kicker is, they destroyed smaller trees and just left them lay. The thing that hurt my Uncle most was when he saw one of the stumps he counted the rings and there were about 120. So the tree was at or about 120 years old.
 
Coldwood, the two gentlemen have been accusing the forum members of being less than sensitive to the environment .

If I am one of those two gentlemen, would you be so kind as to point out the threads where I accused someone of anything. Chris
 
Before I start, Good OP psy-ops :thumbup:.

I can agree with most of what everybody says. I believe that most of the people on BF:WSS are NOT the ones destroying the land, but there are those one or two that do. Runningboar was just saying his opinion about the one or two that do and other leave-no-trace people out there on PUBLIC land.

I used to be able to gather firewood from public land without any problems, now because of the dumb few that ruin everything, that is prohibited and charcoal must be used. Even in the most remote of locations, there will be some kind of trash left by people who just didn't care enough. Not all of US (meaning fellow WSS forumites) go out and chop down a tree to practice skills or have fun, but if it is done, at least it is on private land as mentioned above. Being in scouts for so long, I have always been taught the leave-no-trace rule, and the swishing the water and drinking down the floaties in the bowl is called "yum yum time" :D. I didn't name it that, just a name from Philmont (google my avatar if you don't know what Philmont is).

Back to "bushcraft." It is my favorite thing to do in my free time. It includes any form of woodwork, use of my knife (which happens to always be a folder, my choice), creating things with primative tools, going camping, backpacking, getting away for the weekend, and maybe even fishing and hunting.

As long as I'm having fun in the outdoors and I get to use my knife, that is bushcraft to me.
 
If I am one of those two gentlemen, would you be so kind as to point out the threads where I accused someone of anything. Chris

Chris, I believe he was talking about two others. I'm with you, I believe in "carry in, carry out." I've been known to take a dump in the woods a time or two, but I always buried it and covered it over with lotsa leaves...and scratching it up with my hind legs before I left the scene :D
 
Chris, I believe he was talking about two others. I'm with you, I believe in "carry in, carry out." I've been known to take a dump in the woods a time or two, but I always buried it and covered it over with lotsa leaves...and scratching it up with my hind legs before I left the scene :D

LMAO. :D

Dad says: son, you are gonna have to dig a hole.

Son says: do I really have to go out here?

Dad says: we're miles from a toilet and you have to go right?

Son says: Does a bear $hit in the woods?

Dad says: Yes...

Son says: Well then YES I have to go but not where a bear does!!!

Just something dumb I thought of that had to do with $hitting in the woods. I bury mine too :D.
 
Back
Top