Will Moon "Spindle" lock?

[gadgetgeek]

This is actually a valid concern that kinda led to my initial question. If his patent got approved, depending on the scope of the patent, it technically mean he’s potentially legally allowed to go after anyone who’s making axis lock with coil spring rather than the omega spring as this seem to be the only (major) modification he made to the lock. In an extreme case, if the scope of the patent includes the lockbar and other parts, does it mean any maker using some form of axis lock will infringe his patent?

Thinking on it further, the only valid part of the patent might be the coil spring, so no, he wouldn't be able to go after any other versions of the axis style system. Also it would only apply to anything developed after his filing, if the maker is already doing something, prior art covers that. I'm not an expert, but having watched the OP vid, and looking at the edge-u-cation page on the spyderco site, it looks enough like a hybid bolt action and ball lock that one or both could be prior art, and that's just from one site worth of research.

I'm not sure of the types of springs used in axis, arc, bolt and ball lock systems, and what parts may or may not be able to be patented, but at this stage it would have to be pretty innovative to gain protection. The construction of the lockbar doesn't matter because it is not intrinsic to the function.

A maker can apply for a patent, and could use that as a legal cudgel, but it wouldn't take long to come to light if someone in the industry started patent trolling. After that its one legal defense fund, and end of story. And in any case that would only matter while the patent was being assessed. If it is not approved, I'm not sure what the status of any lawsuit would be, probably summarily dismissed, but its possible anyone who was sued would have the right to counter-sue if they could prove that there were never reasonable grounds for the initial patent application, as the initial lawsuit would be frivolous. Its a dangerous game to play, so anyone trying it would be hoping that the threat of a suit is enough to keep people away, but it would largely be a paper tiger. Also, stripping a knife to send it to Canada isn't illegal exactly, but....

The CS San Mai is I believe trademark, not patent, so different story. I'm not sure if Benchmade has a trademark on the name axis lock or if its already become a term of art or generisized. A patent's working is not the main thing, it has to be demonstrably different to other products. Patent filings are often vague to prevent competitors from gleaning trade secrets, and keep the patent as wide as possible, but they are also harder to defend. "a system by which the motions of a finger on the screen can be used as an input signal"

 

[KAEDC]

This is actually a valid concern that kinda led to my initial question. If his patent got approved, depending on the scope of the patent, it technically mean he’s potentially legally allowed to go after anyone who’s making axis lock with coil spring rather than the omega spring as this seem to be the only (major) modification he made to the lock. In an extreme case, if the scope of the patent includes the lockbar and other parts, does it mean any maker using some form of axis lock will infringe his patent?

Possibly yes, but why does that bother you? It's not like this country has ever really encouraged the free dissemination and use of physical IPs. "Open source" is a relatively new concept to business (to my knowledge). And while I agree that it may occupy an idealistic and moral high ground, and probably does more to encourage innovation and economic success than other methodologies, that doesn't mean the alternative is unethical.

 

[SeppukuSamurai]

Possibly yes, but why does that bother you? It's not like this country has ever really encouraged the free dissemination and use of physical IPs. "Open source" is a relatively new concept to business (to my knowledge). And while I agree that it may occupy an idealistic and moral high ground, and probably does more to encourage innovation and economic success than other methodologies, that doesn't mean the alternative is unethical.

Most every manifestation of the alternative is unequivocally unethical.

This is why I own Hobacks.

 

[KAEDC]

Most every manifestation of the alternative is unequivocally unethical.

This is why I own Hobacks.

I am not sure why you are useing "most". The application for a patent is a far cry from the intentional theft of an IP for example. Based on the OP, the idea in question is the the ethical difference between the patenting of an idea and free dissemination. I am saying in this specific case, I believe that while free dissemination is more ethical, "more" ethical in this case does not invalidate the other.

 

[Quiet]

+1 thank you, better than i can say it. I know how the search function work, i also appreciate the community here who's able to help with constructive info, instead of wasting internet byte playing internet tough guy.

Internet tough guy, heh ok.

Got it!

 

[Quiet]

If you mention Will Moon around here, EVERYTHING is in context.

This.

I'm a particularly huge fan of how Will has told multiple people in the past "Well, maybe you should sell my knife and just buy something else?" when he was unable to fix issues on a knife he sent out that way.

 

[Eli Chaps]

I'm not a patent lawyer by any stretch but I've been involved in the patent process a few times.

First, it is expensive. I know that's relative but by and large you need to hire a patent firm to research non-infringement. I work for a large company so can't say exactly what an individual would pay, but I don't think $10k or more would be out of line.

Second, it takes a loooong time. I've seen applications be in some phase of the process for two years.

Third, if he's already shared it in the public domain, which I think is what I'm understanding here, he's likely totally screwed on ever enforcing the patent even if he did get one.

Forth, we're just talking a US patent. Not Europe, China, Japan, etc. If you have a US patent it is only enforceable on products made or sold in the US. And even then, the individual is responsible for the enforcement and that's a fair bit of legal fees up front. And let's say you do win an infringement case against China Knives Unlimited, LLC. How are you going to collect?

You do not need a totally new invention to get a patent. Every patent has a bunch of wordy fluff, but it is the Claims section that matters. Typically, you only need to be different on say, one of those claims to be considered, well, different. This is why so often, the patent claims try to cover a range of variables rather than exact specification. For example, a claim might be written as "a spring with between 4 foot pounds and 12 foot pounds of force," when the maker is using a spring that is exactly nine foot pounds.

Just some food for thought. Again, I am far from an expert, just my own experience and understanding.

Oh and @Charlie Mike, YIKES!!! Loved the vid.

 

[Rival1314]

Op...some reading material on will:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-bad-will-moon.1171678/

Here is one with a classic moon meltdown:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/another-bad-will-moon-post.1582852/

Posted these since a search for will moon now brings up this thread first.

Aside from his personality, his craftsmanship is inconsistent. You may get a good knife., but if you get a flawed knife he isnt gonna do anything about it. I handled a stormcrow at a recent show. I was not impressed by the spindle lock. The one i handled was soft and did not flip well, and the handle is way too fat for my taste.

 

[SpySmasher]

I handled a stormcrow at a recent show. I was not impressed by the spindle lock. The one i handled was soft and did not flip well ...

Even though the thread is speculating about a patent, this is probably the most important information in this thread about the Spindle lock. I'm not surprised by this -- the BM 300 is a terrible flipper too.

 

[Mo2]

He wants to be known for something despite his lack of common sense. This is likely why he wants to patent.

He's probably still in high school mentally

 

[goldie]

Too bad, he seems to do pretty good machining and fitting of certain things,but then it goes the other way like that backspacer pic or the knives posted by frunkey and CM..For $500-800 theres so many better offerings....

 

[SpyderPhreak]

Will Moon is . I guarantee you that Benchmade has smarter folks than he working for them. This alleged patent filing won't hold water, if he actually even filed it to start with. Too similar to the Anthem, just for starters.

Side note, the other modification he made on the axis lock is to change the lockbar from one piece construction into screwed-together construction so that the lockbar can be removed without disassembling the knife to change the spring.
IMO that’s not really an improvement over the axis lockbar that’s turned from a solid piece of steel, because instead of a one piece construction, he new turned it into a 3 piece construction with screws on both end potentially coming loose due to repeated use. More parts means higher probability of failure.

What ever gave you the idea that all Axis lock bars are a single, turned piece? That's NOT the case on many of the known authentic Benchmade Axis knives I own!

Many are, in fact, 2 or even 3 pieces. The center post being a solid cylinder with either one or both ends being threaded, and the "knob(s)" threading onto the end(s) of the shaft. The Anthem I have in front of me is actually a perfect example; with the design of the integral Ti handle, it could not be made with a single-piece lock bar to begin with, as there would be no way to insert the lock bar from one side and have it remain captive so it couldn't fall out. It's clear that the Axis bar on the Anthem is inserted from one side, and the "cap" or "nut" is then threaded onto the other end. I haven't disassembled it to confirm, but this one appears to be a 2-piece design, with only one of the ends coming off of the shaft piece. ETA - There's pics on the interwebs of the Anthem lock bar disassembled if you don't believe me. Google will turn them up rather quickly.

 

[insta9ves]

...
What ever gave you the idea that all Axis lock bars are a single, turned piece? That's NOT the case on many of the known authentic Benchmade Axis knives I own!

Many are, in fact, 2 or even 3 pieces. The center post being a solid cylinder with either one or both ends being threaded, and the "knob(s)" threading onto the end(s) of the shaft. The Anthem I have in front of me is actually a perfect example; with the design of the integral Ti handle, it could not be made with a single-piece lock bar to begin with, as there would be no way to insert the lock bar from one side and have it remain captive so it couldn't fall out. It's clear that the Axis bar on the Anthem is inserted from one side, and the "cap" or "nut" is then threaded onto the other end. I haven't disassembled it to confirm, but this one appears to be a 2-piece design, with only one of the ends coming off of the shaft piece. ETA - There's pics on the interwebs of the Anthem lock bar disassembled if you don't believe me. Google will turn them up rather quickly.

Umm ever think that perhaps Anthem is the exception because, like you mentioned, a one-piece axis lockbar wont be able to fit the integral frame? Kindly advise which other Benchmade models you own that uses 2-3 pieces lockbar?

Also you are missing the point here. No one is arguing with you about whether ALL benchmade axis lockbar is turned from a solid piece or not(i don’t think I even mentioned this in my previous post). The point is, a one piece construction is likely going to be more reliable as it has potentially less parts to go wrong with, given the same material and other factor i.e. hardness, dimension etc being constant.

Btw, i got the info about axis lockbar being turned from solid piece of steel from benchmade support themselves on their forums. Feel free to ask on their forum or their subforum here if you need confirmation.

The more you know...

 

[goldie]

Biggest issue is, if hes sketchy with fit and finish problems, what if he becomes sketchy with that spindle lock ? Now its a safety issue;i hope he doesn't work on cars id hate for someone to get their brakes done by him...

 

[Livefreeordie92]

I just got a tremendous kick out of a recent video of him ranting about how he would be ashamed of a Strider SMF he had left his shop, when literally every knife I’ve ever seen that he’s made has been the real steel version of something a kindergartner would make their dad whose into knives out of construction paper. I’ve yet to see a single knife of his that didn’t look like utter crap.

 

[b00n]

This.

I'm a particularly huge fan of how Will has told multiple people in the past "Well, maybe you should sell my knife and just buy something else?" when he was unable to fix issues on a knife he sent out that way.

I think at some point he'll get his wish and nobody will buy a knife from him in the first place and skip that step.

 

[Night Rider]

This one looks fine to me but the price is too steep This guy brings up some good unbiased points but I don't think he's thorough knife nerd IMO

 

[Livefreeordie92]

This one looks fine to me but the price is too steep This guy brings up some good unbiased points but I don't think he's thorough knife nerd IMO

I just think his designs are hideous. I would never pay $1000 for one of those. I could have an XM-18 and a CRK in any configuration I want for that and his fit and finish as shown on some models isn't even up to the standard of a $30 Spyderco, let alone the other two.

 

[marrenmiller]

Umm ever think that perhaps Anthem is the exception because, like you mentioned, a one-piece axis lockbar wont be able to fit the integral frame? Kindly advise which other Benchmade models you own that uses 2-3 pieces lockbar?

Also you are missing the point here. No one is arguing with you about whether ALL benchmade axis lockbar is turned from a solid piece or not(i don’t think I even mentioned this in my previous post). The point is, a one piece construction is likely going to be more reliable as it has potentially less parts to go wrong with, given the same material and other factor i.e. hardness, dimension etc being constant.

Btw, i got the info about axis lockbar being turned from solid piece of steel from benchmade support themselves on their forums. Feel free to ask on their forum or their subforum here if you need confirmation.

The more you know...

The Benchmade 710 uses a 3 piece lockbar. It's pinned together once assembled and cannot be disassembled, but it's made from 3 separate pieces.

 

[SpyderPhreak]

Umm ever think that perhaps Anthem is the exception because, like you mentioned, a one-piece axis lockbar wont be able to fit the integral frame? Kindly advise which other Benchmade models you own that uses 2-3 pieces lockbar?

Also you are missing the point here. No one is arguing with you about whether ALL benchmade axis lockbar is turned from a solid piece or not(i don’t think I even mentioned this in my previous post). The point is, a one piece construction is likely going to be more reliable as it has potentially less parts to go wrong with, given the same material and other factor i.e. hardness, dimension etc being constant.

Btw, i got the info about axis lockbar being turned from solid piece of steel from benchmade support themselves on their forums. Feel free to ask on their forum or their subforum here if you need confirmation.

The more you know...

I wasn't arguing, but I guess I will start now. You missed MY point. I'll spell it out for you here; this "new" lock is NOT an improvement over the original Axis lock! Nor different enough to warrant a new patent, even if BM hadn't made anything but single-piece Axis lock bars.

And BTW, you DID say that this new lock was a change from the original Axis lock, and one of the changes was the multi piece lock bar from a one piece. You then go on to reiterate that point by saying that it's turned from a solid piece of steel, right there in the first sentence of your second paragraph. The Anthem is not THE exception to the rule, but it is AN exception to the rule. There are MANY Axis lock bars that are 2 or 3 pieces. As mentioned directly above, the 710 is one (and I have several). I have a 943 that is also a 3-piece lock bar. I could go on... BM customer service is always correct, right? I'll not be bothering BM for an answer that I already know to be true.