Winkler Stress

QUOTE RMJ: "Hardcore has made a business by ripping off other people's design features, Mr. Winkler included. I realize you are the dealer for their product but don't snipe into a discussion about another hawk maker and cheer-lead for Hardcore. Of course they are cheaper, they didn't have to invest into designing it or actually manufacturing it themselves."

Lol they sure must be taking a nice big chunk out of your market to make a comment like that!

I’ve got a couple of bits of kit from the Aussie crowd, great gear luv it! Price was affordable for premium quality and there was no wait, well 3 days!

I contacted RMJ a few years back, 6-8 month wait and some guff about my order being put on the back burner to fill military orders yet to be received – what’s that about?

Come on guys, lift your game no offence.

Cheers

Jontan888
(It’s an Asian thing)
 
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D2 is not as impact resistant as 5160.

Jontan, if you had spent your time developing a unique design just to have someone come along and rip it off you would likely be upset even if it didn't affect your income negatively.

Feel free to spend your money on a substandard hunk of poor-steel-choice with an overly-tactical, useless pouch though. Your coment reminded me of why I hate some companies. Thanks.
 
Jontan888 said:
QUOTE RMJ: "Hardcore has made a business by ripping off other people's design features, Mr. Winkler included. I realize you are the dealer for their product but don't snipe into a discussion about another hawk maker and cheer-lead for Hardcore. Of course they are cheaper, they didn't have to invest into designing it or actually manufacturing it themselves."

Lol they sure must be taking a nice big chunk out of your market to make a comment like that!

I’ve got a couple of bits of kit from the Aussie crowd, great gear luv it! Price was affordable for premium quality and there was no wait, well 3 days!

I contacted RMJ a few years back, 6-8 month wait and some guff about my order being put on the back burner to fill military orders yet to be received – what’s that about?

Come on guys, lift your game no offence.

Cheers

Jontan888
(It’s an Asian thing)
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If there seems to be a contradiction test your premise: if market share was my concern I would not be so quick to defend Winkler. Daniel's work is representative of the direction we like to see the market move - innovative original designs that are driven by input from the SOCOM communities. Quality is high and predictable. I personally am glad to have friendly competitors who keep the bar high. We have helped other makers prototype their designs as well. Our backlog is indicative of our market share. That being said we are investing a lot of money and effort into having our regular products available in inventory with no wait in the next six months. Other domestic hawk makers we know are working toward similar goals.
Instead of market share, my concern is intellectual property. Am I the only one who sees a lot of familiar lines in the hardcore lineup? They take great liberties not only with our designs but with WKII and Strider Knives as well. Yes there have been other companies guilty of the same thing - very few though seem as comfortable with it as these guys.
I have had my say and will respectfully let you guys take it from here.
RMJ
 
And that is why we buy RMJ's and Winkler's....

Don't stress over buying either way, for the cost of a few car/truck payments you'll have a tool for several lifetimes. You'll never regret buying it once it's in your hands.
 
Scouter,
I think your point is moot buddy http://www.hardcorehardware.com.au/materials/d2.php

RMJ Tactical said:
we are investing a lot of money and effort into having our regular products available in inventory with no wait in the next six months.

I have had my say and will respectfully let you guys take it from here.
RMJ
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Oh, it’s respectfully now, is it? Little late for that!
That’s good to hear about your inventory – may have to invest in an RMJ Talon, will look great on my wall next to my HHA BFT01G.
Cheers

Jontan888
(It’s an Asian thing)
 
Jontan888 said:
QUOTE RMJ: "Hardcore has made a business by ripping off other people's design features, Mr. Winkler included. I realize you are the dealer for their product but don't snipe into a discussion about another hawk maker and cheer-lead for Hardcore. Of course they are cheaper, they didn't have to invest into designing it or actually manufacturing it themselves."

Lol they sure must be taking a nice big chunk out of your market to make a comment like that!

I’ve got a couple of bits of kit from the Aussie crowd, great gear luv it! Price was affordable for premium quality and there was no wait, well 3 days!

I contacted RMJ a few years back, 6-8 month wait and some guff about my order being put on the back burner to fill military orders yet to be received – what’s that about?

Come on guys, lift your game no offence.

Cheers

Jontan888
(It’s an Asian thing)
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm willing to give up my spot and be put back a few weeks if it means a soldier getting a good tool in his hands first. Realistically speaking, he's got a hell of a lot more use for a hawk like that than I do, and if my boyish love of near-indestructible chopping tools has to be delayed for a soldier to get a tool that could very well save his life, then I will manage. ;)
 
Quote VolundoftheForge: Personally, I'm willing to give up my spot and be put back a few weeks if it means a soldier getting a good tool in his hands first.

That's cool, but it sounds more like a marketing ploy to me or an inability to meet basic consumer demand. Their site states "RMJ Tactical's first priority is to provide tomahawks to our military personnel as soon as possible. If one of our tomahawks can aid one soldier to come home safe and whole, our company mission has been achieved. If you are a civilian and have an order with us or are planning to place an order, please understand that currently there is a wait and if we receive more orders from military personnel, your wait time may even increase. Thanks for your patience."


I have a question for RMJ: Did you pay the Native American Indians the rights to their intellectual property before you stole it from them? Or do you simply write that one off and rebrand it as "Extraordinary"?

Cheers

Jontan888
(It's an Asian thing)
 
The idea of the tomahawk cannot be credited to any one location, much less an individual bloodline to find someone to pay royalties to. Strawman tactic ar its finest.

As for the advertisement for D2, it's a fine knife steel, but no matter how many exciting ads you find, it is far from optimal for a tomahawk. Because it's not as impact resistant as 5160 and many other steels. Use the right material for the job and you don't have to type out a two page magazine spread to explain it.
 
scouter27 said:
The idea of the tomahawk cannot be credited to any one location, much less an individual bloodline to find someone to pay royalties to.
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Oh that's nice, how convenient - perhaps a donation then, this seems like a worthy cause [solicitation removed]

Jontan888
(It's an Asian thing)
 
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Jontan888 said:
Oh that's nice, how convenient - perhaps a donation then, this seems like a worthy cause http://www.ohioindians.org/donate/

Jontan888
(It's an Asian thing)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the tomahawk originally held european origins. Early settlers brought light axes of similar construction that they traded to the natives for certain supplies, and then different tribes modified the design to fit different roles and ultimately formed the common day "tomahawk".
 
Jontan888 said:
Quote VolundoftheForge: Personally, I'm willing to give up my spot and be put back a few weeks if it means a soldier getting a good tool in his hands first.

That's cool, but it sounds more like a marketing ploy to me or an inability to meet basic consumer demand. Their site states "RMJ Tactical's first priority is to provide tomahawks to our military personnel as soon as possible. If one of our tomahawks can aid one soldier to come home safe and whole, our company mission has been achieved. If you are a civilian and have an order with us or are planning to place an order, please understand that currently there is a wait and if we receive more orders from military personnel, your wait time may even increase. Thanks for your patience."


I have a question for RMJ: Did you pay the Native American Indians the rights to their intellectual property before you stole it from them? Or do you simply write that one off and rebrand it as "Extraordinary"?

Cheers

Jontan888
(It's an Asian thing)
Click to expand...

Can you explain your dog in this fight? I remember you showing up to rant and rave like this about HHA a while back as well. If you don't work for them I'd be willing to bet a friend of yours does. Either way, if you have a personal problem with RMJ please take it to your own thread. I doubt you'll get many supportive responses. Thanks
 
Well you’d lose that bet pmbspyder. Nice try though, happy to take your money mate!
I’ve posted my interest in this thread already; perhaps take it from the top.

Once RMJ have their supply woe’s resolved I’ll be getting a Talon, they look cool (quite different to anything else I have) and I’ve gotta find out for myself if they live up to all the hype.

Cheers

Jontan888
(It’s an Asian thing)
 
RMJ supply woe’s ?????

A quality product takes time to produce, and if it has been proven to be the best that the demand for it will always be high. RMJ and Winkler Knives products have been field tested by some of the best warriors around and have passed the test.

The axes that RMJ and Winkler produce are out there in the worst and most dangerous places on the planet, and are backed by does that use them. I myself would stake my life on a Winkler or an RMJ hawk any day.
 
pmbspyder said:
Can you explain your dog in this fight? I remember you showing up to rant and rave like this about HHA a while back as well. If you don't work for them I'd be willing to bet a friend of yours does. Either way, if you have a personal problem with RMJ please take it to your own thread. I doubt you'll get many supportive responses. Thanks
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19 posrs in 20 month, each in a thread that mentions those guys. I'd say something is amiss.
 
VolundoftheForge said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the tomahawk originally held european origins. Early settlers brought light axes of similar construction that they traded to the natives for certain supplies, and then different tribes modified the design to fit different roles and ultimately formed the common day "tomahawk".
Click to expand...

I believe they were originally the naval boarding axes and hatchets used by Europeans that were traded or sold to the locals. One has to take those stories with a pinch of salt of course but it makes sense to me.

Jontan888 said:
Well you’d lose that bet pmbspyder. Nice try though, happy to take your money mate!
I’ve posted my interest in this thread already; perhaps take it from the top.

Once RMJ have their supply woe’s resolved I’ll be getting a Talon, they look cool (quite different to anything else I have) and I’ve gotta find out for myself if they live up to all the hype.

Cheers

Jontan888
(It’s an Asian thing)
Click to expand...

RMJ make a superb product and I have used my hawks for training as well as out in the sticks having fun. I look forward to seeing those guys at BLADE every year now and will always make a point of picking up a hawk from them. They make a product that I have used and can't fault at all and that seems to be a constant and regular theme for them and their customers. Your mates from Australia are just jumping on the hawk band wagon with an inferior product and there really is no getting round that. Also, when I bought my first hawk from RMJ I was quoted 3 months but had it in hand in 6 weeks and that isn't bad at all, IMO. These "supply woes" you're harping on about are imagined or at least a nice story you seem to be touting here.......
 
Very few people that actually keep you in their friend's list after a purchase. Ryan Johnson, Richard Carmack and John Hutcheson are those geezers.
Let their work speak for themselves but i want to share this:
I bought a Kestrel from a forumite and the micarta scale broke after a while.They offered to send me a brand new rig and pristine G-10 handle, machined to the original dimension without a single cent paid, 10,000miles away and a bonus Challenge coin which i keep in my wallet to remind me of their dedications.
I still talk to them about their competitor products and they are cool to take the inputs. These days constructive criticisms don't come cheap because it's hard to swallow.

Btw Ed, your Winkler collection is INSANE.
 
Man this thread took a left turn at Albuquerque and hasn’t looked back…
And to think, all Volund wanted was to figure out a way to lessen his “Winkler Stress”!!

Looking over this thread, it seems like Hardcore Hardware has already stepped on some peoples toes, so who knows how they’ll be accepted long term. DullKnifeTerminator and Jontan888’s comments only served to add fuel to this fire. They did seem to annoy, as I can’t remember ANYONE representing RMJ Tactical lashing out like that at anyone before, as I’ve had nothing but exceptional kindness and great customer service from them over the years.

I wanted to stop in again and thank those few who provided some insight as to why they thought D2 steel was not a good choice for a tomahawk. That said, I wanted to add some transparency to my previous post.

I work as a full time LEO and I’ve spent a significant amount of my time kicking in doors and legally robbing people of their liberty. I seem to carry much of the same gear EdWood has shown in his photos through various posts (yes, I admit I’d been thread-lurking for months prior to joining the forum) and I know that while doing my job, I simply need solid gear which works, regardless of the brand. I have gone out of pocket many, many times to ensure that this was the case, and I can guarantee that I’m going to have to do it again.

I mention that, to mention this; last year I had the privilege to be part of a private law enforcement T&E (Test and Evaluation) group comprised of several LEO tactical teams who were looking to pool our resources to decide on the purchase a tomahawk for field use by our officers/agents. We started out with many brands and models, but in the end, we ended up with only four which passed all the tests without any issues or failures. RMJ Tactical, Winkler Knives, Omnivore Bladeworks and Hardcore Hardware…

No surprise to anyone here, but the quality and performance of the tomahawks from RMJ Tactical or Winkler knives during this T&E was excellent. I won’t go into a large comment about Omnivore Bladeworks here other than to say that they too surprised many in our T&E as the quality and performance of their ‘hawk was exceptional as well.

Which brings me to Contestant #4, as the Hardcore Hardware tomahawk also held up without a single issue. I still don’t know much about which steel may be right/wrong/better for certain applications, but that is why I inquired about the possibly dubious choice of a tomahawk constructed of D2. I was pretty surprised to see someone say that D2 wasn’t good steel for a tomahawk as I have seen this same brand of D2 tomahawk perform really, really well in our T&E without a single failure. I didn’t have any experience or knowledge with Hardcore Hardware prior to this T&E and I can’t say much about them plagiarizing anyone’s designs (other than I don’t really see it), but I can say this…

Their tomahawk stood up along with the three other quality brands mentioned, and took use and abuse which simply destroyed lesser-grade tools. I have to believe that says something about the class of tool we’re talking about here. However, just as Scouter27 posted previously; “…no one is debating getting the HHA over a Winkler II based on quality…”, and I know some of these decisions come down to cost for many folks.

I just wanted to share some personal experiences with these brands as I didn’t know if anyone else has seen or used a Hardcore Hardware tomahawk for the purposes they say it was intended. Long story short, I'm not saying that the quality of these companies is the same (especially considering some of them are production companies Vs. custom outfits with just one guy), but taking the cost out of the picture, I would not hesitate to use any of the brands I’ve mentioned here again in the field. Sorry for the long post…
Thanks again to all for the insight(s).
 
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SHIFTER said:
Man this thread took a left turn at Albuquerque and hasn’t looked back…
And to think, all Volund wanted was to figure out a way to lessen his “Winkler Stress”!!

Looking over this thread, it seems like Hardcore Hardware has already stepped on some peoples toes, so who knows how they’ll be accepted long term. DullKnifeTerminator and Jontan888’s comments only served to add fuel to this fire. They did seem to annoy, as I can’t remember ANYONE representing RMJ Tactical lashing out like that at anyone before, as I’ve had nothing but exceptional kindness and great customer service from them over the years.

I wanted to stop in again and thank those few who provided some insight as to why they thought D2 steel was not a good choice for a tomahawk. That said, I wanted to add some transparency to my previous post.

I work as a full time LEO and I’ve spent a significant amount of my time kicking in doors and legally robbing people of their liberty. I seem to carry much of the same gear EdWood has shown in his photos through various posts (yes, I admit I’d been thread-lurking for months prior to joining the forum) and I know that while doing my job, I simply need solid gear which works, regardless of the brand. I have gone out of pocket many, many times to ensure that this was the case, and I can guarantee that I’m going to have to do it again.

I mention that, to mention this; last year I had the privilege to be part of a private law enforcement T&E (Test and Evaluation) group comprised of several LEO tactical teams who were looking to pool our resources to decide on the purchase a tomahawk for field use by our officers/agents. We started out with many brands and models, but in the end, we ended up with only four which passed all the tests without any issues or failures. RMJ Tactical, Winkler Knives, Omnivore Bladeworks and Hardcore Hardware…

No surprise to anyone here, but the quality and performance of the tomahawks from RMJ Tactical or Winkler knives during this T&E was excellent. I won’t go into a large comment about Omnivore Bladeworks here other than to say that they too surprised many in our T&E as the quality and performance of their ‘hawk was exceptional as well.

Which brings me to Contestant #4, as the Hardcore Hardware tomahawk also held up without a single issue. I still don’t know much about which steel may be right/wrong/better for certain applications, but that is why I inquired about the possibly dubious choice of a tomahawk constructed of D2. I was pretty surprised to see someone say that D2 wasn’t good steel for a tomahawk as I have seen this same brand of D2 tomahawk perform really, really well in our T&E without a single failure. I didn’t have any experience or knowledge with Hardcore Hardware prior to this T&E and I can’t say much about them plagiarizing anyone’s designs (other than I don’t really see it), but I can say this…

Their tomahawk stood up along with the three other quality brands mentioned, and took use and abuse which simply destroyed lesser-grade tools. I have to believe that says something about the class of tool we’re talking about here. However, just as Scouter27 posted previously; “…no one is debating getting the HHA over a Winkler II based on quality…”, and I know some of these decisions come down to cost for many folks.

I just wanted to share some personal experiences with these brands as I didn’t know if anyone else has seen or used a Hardcore Hardware tomahawk for the purposes they say it was intended. Long story short, taking the cost out of the picture, I would not hesitate to use any of the brands I’ve mentioned here again in the field. Sorry for the long post…
Thanks again to all for the insight(s).
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what all you did in your testing, and I'm curious of what applications you used it for. From what I know of the steel and other people's experience, D2 holds and edge well and is very rust resistant for a carbon steel, however it can tend to be very brittle at ideal temper-ranges. Basically, you could get D2 to be tough for the same kind of use 5160 or such would handle, but it'll likely involve a lesser heat-treat meaning less-than-ideal edge retention, or a wider edge angle that could hinder performance in certain tasks. The nice thing about 5160 is even in thin sheets and hardened to optimum degree, it's still extremely durable.
 
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