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Winter Camping, What gear do I need?
- Thread starter weeblewooble
- Start date
Hi Weeble -
Boots..... This is a tough question. Ok, so i know many folks who are avid hunters (used to hunt quite a bit myself back in the day) and *all* the places they buy boots advertise by temperature rating. Unfortunately, they listen the the hype of these mis-informed sales pitches. In my opinion, that's about the most misleading "rating" i've ever seen. There are simply too many variables to honestly evaluate how cold boot's insulation will keep your feet warm - every rating could be true if all the conditions were just right. Sleeping bag manufacturers suffer the same problem of accurately (and ethically) evaluating their bag's ability to insulate.
When i'm buying boots i think 1st about the type of activity and climate i'll be doing and then match the boot to that. If i'm going to be in various conditions but high in activity, i search an un-insulated boot, but plan on supplementing my insulation needs 'cause i won't be walking/climbing the whole time.
Regardless of use, make absolutely sure your boots fit you well. Lots of people have very expensive blister-makers because someone told them some particular brand was THE VERY BEST. There are many top-shelf boot manufacturers, but quality is rarely inexpensive.
Categorically, i do not use pack-type boots for hiking/trekking/climbing. They simply are not designed for it and you suffer unnecessarily (and no guarantee that your feet will ultimately be any warmer for the suffering).
In my experience i've found proper hydration, activity and then insulation to be the best way to ensure i maintain warm feet. I have failed in this many times and now my feet/toes are much more susceptible to cold.
Please learn from my stupidity and avoid these types of long-term capillary damage.
As to trying to answer your question, i'd suggest buying a pair of "heavy" hikers. When sizing i always make sure i kick my toe into the boot as far as it can then make sure i can stack my index and middle finger between my heel and the inside of the boot (kinda hard to describe this...). That way i know the "length" is enough. This way i ensure i can wear a thick sock (size your boots with a sock thickness you plan on generally using - not necessarily a thick "winter" sock), but my "go to" sock will work.
Get the best quality boots that fit you perfectly (that are within your price range). I must say an overbook really is fantastic, but it is an expensive move. If you're set on that path, i prefer my Outdoor Research Brooks Range overboots. I believe they're more durable than the neoprene's (40below, et al), even though they've been used up the highest mountains on earth. Neoprene is harder to repair than Cordura/G-tex......
frank
Boots..... This is a tough question. Ok, so i know many folks who are avid hunters (used to hunt quite a bit myself back in the day) and *all* the places they buy boots advertise by temperature rating. Unfortunately, they listen the the hype of these mis-informed sales pitches. In my opinion, that's about the most misleading "rating" i've ever seen. There are simply too many variables to honestly evaluate how cold boot's insulation will keep your feet warm - every rating could be true if all the conditions were just right. Sleeping bag manufacturers suffer the same problem of accurately (and ethically) evaluating their bag's ability to insulate.
When i'm buying boots i think 1st about the type of activity and climate i'll be doing and then match the boot to that. If i'm going to be in various conditions but high in activity, i search an un-insulated boot, but plan on supplementing my insulation needs 'cause i won't be walking/climbing the whole time.
Regardless of use, make absolutely sure your boots fit you well. Lots of people have very expensive blister-makers because someone told them some particular brand was THE VERY BEST. There are many top-shelf boot manufacturers, but quality is rarely inexpensive.
Categorically, i do not use pack-type boots for hiking/trekking/climbing. They simply are not designed for it and you suffer unnecessarily (and no guarantee that your feet will ultimately be any warmer for the suffering).
In my experience i've found proper hydration, activity and then insulation to be the best way to ensure i maintain warm feet. I have failed in this many times and now my feet/toes are much more susceptible to cold.
Please learn from my stupidity and avoid these types of long-term capillary damage.
As to trying to answer your question, i'd suggest buying a pair of "heavy" hikers. When sizing i always make sure i kick my toe into the boot as far as it can then make sure i can stack my index and middle finger between my heel and the inside of the boot (kinda hard to describe this...). That way i know the "length" is enough. This way i ensure i can wear a thick sock (size your boots with a sock thickness you plan on generally using - not necessarily a thick "winter" sock), but my "go to" sock will work.
Get the best quality boots that fit you perfectly (that are within your price range). I must say an overbook really is fantastic, but it is an expensive move. If you're set on that path, i prefer my Outdoor Research Brooks Range overboots. I believe they're more durable than the neoprene's (40below, et al), even though they've been used up the highest mountains on earth. Neoprene is harder to repair than Cordura/G-tex......
frank
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
If you are going to wear "extra" socks/"thicker" socks, there needs to be room in the boot so the air is not crushed out of the socks. It's the trapped air that insulates.
You guys are right; it is a pretty good thread.
where are are the hard core bushmen? is fur in or fur out better when wearing fresh skin?
Woke up monday morning to frost and fog. Condensation underneath heavy-duty emergency blanket/on top of my bag. Used wp/b shell for VB. Slept cold. The rest of the week slept in down sweater in bag; only air dried gear once. Slept warm. Lows 23-30F. Cover was poly tarp. (I read a good tip on airing out/ sun drying-don't do it too much or risk UV damage to material)
Personally I believe the blurbs about high heels on hiking boots throwing the natural foot out of whack-thus creating a need for ankle support. 9sorry I cant repeat it exactly)
Mountaineering is one thing; the platform of heavy soled boot is considered necessary by most. In places where you should be carrying an ice-axe; online forum advice is not enough instruction imho. needing crampons is a whole 'nuther level, i think, as at times you can get along stomping or chopping steps (if you really want to be nervous)
Boots, well last month I googled "minimalist shoes" I don't like that word minimalist, but used it anyway
Found something to cause me to renege on my swearing off glued together shoes too.(double hypocrite) Inov8. I got a pair of 400 gtx. I may go ahead and get another style boot or perhaps even low top trail runners. I like these boots a lot. So far They've kicked around the jobsite, a little dry woods travel and a couple day hikes in the Rockie's montane. not a lifetime of trustworthy use; true, we'll see how they hold up but check out their reviews.
where are are the hard core bushmen? is fur in or fur out better when wearing fresh skin?
Woke up monday morning to frost and fog. Condensation underneath heavy-duty emergency blanket/on top of my bag. Used wp/b shell for VB. Slept cold. The rest of the week slept in down sweater in bag; only air dried gear once. Slept warm. Lows 23-30F. Cover was poly tarp. (I read a good tip on airing out/ sun drying-don't do it too much or risk UV damage to material)
Personally I believe the blurbs about high heels on hiking boots throwing the natural foot out of whack-thus creating a need for ankle support. 9sorry I cant repeat it exactly)
Mountaineering is one thing; the platform of heavy soled boot is considered necessary by most. In places where you should be carrying an ice-axe; online forum advice is not enough instruction imho. needing crampons is a whole 'nuther level, i think, as at times you can get along stomping or chopping steps (if you really want to be nervous)
Boots, well last month I googled "minimalist shoes" I don't like that word minimalist, but used it anyway
Found something to cause me to renege on my swearing off glued together shoes too.(double hypocrite) Inov8. I got a pair of 400 gtx. I may go ahead and get another style boot or perhaps even low top trail runners. I like these boots a lot. So far They've kicked around the jobsite, a little dry woods travel and a couple day hikes in the Rockie's montane. not a lifetime of trustworthy use; true, we'll see how they hold up but check out their reviews.Hey BB, yea i never put anything *over* my sleeping bag. "Bivy" users experience this phenomenon regularly - a significant reason i don't use bivy's.
I agree w/the heel of boots putting the mechanics out-of-whack, but can't subscribe to the philosophy of using them strictly for steep travel. The thicker footbed (sole/mid-sole/insole) of a "heeled" boot provides for needed traction on any 'angled' surface not exclusively upward direction (think side-slopes on even moderate hills) as well as added separation from the cold ground.
As to crampon use vs bareboot kick-stepping/step-chopping i side w/crampons everytime. I was climbing up a very steep slope on a mountain in western Bosnia 4 years ago. The snow was snow-ball-rolling down the slope as i kick-stepped up. Before i realized it (i was moving along pretty quickly), i had transitioned into 'need my glacier tool/ice axe right now' terrain. The 1st gear i put on was my 'pons - i had a VERY nervous 5 minutes removing my pack and locking into my Sabretooths. After that, i only needed my glacier took for balance as the snow was sufficiently frozen to take solid crampon placements. I never cut steps anymore - too time consuming/energy expending.
Boots, well last month I googled "minimalist shoes" I don't like that word minimalist, but used it anyway
I agree that carrying less on yer tootsies is an awesome way to find some freedom from burden (as is carrying 20lbs less on yer back). However, winter camping (especially for someone new to the sport) requires alot more "insurance margin" than Spring/Summer/Fall. The inherent danger with hypothermia requires participants to maintain a higher level of protection. If an experienced camper wants to experiment with how much they can pare from their winter kit - great! - but always with a measure of security in that time of experimentation. A "rolled" ankle 10 or 15 (or 5) miles from the car is a bad situation. Low-tops offer nothing to help prevent this and a multi-day, winter-weight pack requires a little more than a day-hiker in October.
Please hear my concern here: It's flippant and dangerous for published "experts" to extol the virtues of a 35lb winter pack for multi-day outings. It speaks of their inexperience - despite 100,000 failure-free miles in the backcountry. We never hear of their "epic" experiences when the "less-than-ideal" circumstances came to visit with Mr. Murphy and his Law present for the show. Also, they usually have an exceptional level of physical fitness which can be of great aide in poor equipment decisions. Also, they will be accompanied by other similarly fit campers who can, together, help.
I'm not pooh-poohing the ultra-light philosophy, but rather advise to engage it carefully and in the appropriate circumstances (not everyone can differentiate accurately).
frank
I'll have to respectfully disagree here. Ultralight philosophies are just as appropriate in any season. Trying to find the lightest, appropriate (read safe) gear and not carrying everything but the kitchen sink- applies year round. I've never seen any "experts" extolling to carry anything less than what is appropriate for the season and terrain they are traveling in. Personally, I would tend to listen to folks that have experienced 100,00 failure-free miles!
Traveling safe in the backcountry requires a skill set regardless of season. Choosing appropriate gear (and the knowledge to use it) is part of that skill set.
"Winter" is a lot of different things to different people, but I'm confident I could safely put together a 35# gear list for winter travel for my region.
mike
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2005
- Messages
- 9,680
I agree with mtwarden... I haven't seen many ultralighters giving overly dangerous advice. Many things can be interpreted wrong, too.... but that shouldn't prevent experienced folks from sharing advanced tips and techniques. Ultimately, it's up to the individual to be honest as to their abilities.
Side note... We here on BF are all knife enthusiasts... we read about ultralighter's with no blades and automatically think they are dangerous idiots. Still, you never really hear about a hiker dying in the wilderness because he had no knife. I, personally still want to hate them.... come'on... lets hate'em!!!
Rick
Side note... We here on BF are all knife enthusiasts... we read about ultralighter's with no blades and automatically think they are dangerous idiots. Still, you never really hear about a hiker dying in the wilderness because he had no knife. I, personally still want to hate them.... come'on... lets hate'em!!!
Rick
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I think that is part of the problem. I reply based on my idea of winter, and others reply based on theirs, even though, depending on the person, that can be a 60*F difference.
Best boots for winter hiking? Is it 40F, 25F, 0F, or -20F. The answer is different for each category, yet each person tends to answer from their own perspective. There is a big difference between pack weight for each of those temps at more average experience levels as well. (Edit, maybe not, I guess it depends on each persons background. Each category could be 'dang cold' to someone.)
I am not mentioning any of this in response to any post in particular, but thought about it as I was doing my own research for an upcoming trip. Be sure of the conditions you will be facing, as well as the ones involved in articles and posts you read. Some guys love to winter camp, and bring all kinds of fancy gear for "weather that could go below freezing", and others bring cotton overcoats and 3 hats and a sled for -25F conditions. Then to compound the issue, you read about ultralighters that cover 40 miles a day at times with 18lb packs in -20F weather. You need to be sure of where your info is coming from and who it applies to.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2010
- Messages
- 16
Hi I don't post much but this caught my interest because I live fairly close to the trail you'll be hiking and I've done some winter camping in central PA. So here are a few things that work for me.
My crappy northface 0 degree bag with a blue walmart pad underneath has worked for me down into the teens possibly single digits. I wear underarmor, fleece and socks while sleeping and only once have I had to throw on my jacket. I'm a cold sleeper but one thing that really helps me is to eat something with a lot of calories right before I go to sleep. I also bring some olive oil and add some to everything I cook which is an easy way to add calories. Maybe this is some kind of weird placebo effect but it seems to work for me.
As far as tents, if I know it's going to be really windy I use a eureka spitfire but otherwise a tarp. In my opinion, you don't really need a 4 season tent in this area, but experiment and see what works for you.
Footwear for me is a thin liner sock, a thick warm sock, sealskinz and some nike free sneakers. I don't like relying on insulated footwear. The inov8s should work great, I'd like a pair of these someday. I take an extra pair of socks to wear in the sleeping bag.
Unless something really out of character happens you probably won't have much snow like you mentioned already. I only throw on the gators if there's at least a foot of snow.
My stove is a pocket rocket and it's never failed me in the winter yet. I also have an alcohol stove but I haven't been able to test that in the winter yet.
My pack weight is normally somewhere between 25 and 30 pounds for winter here but our winters are pretty mild. I'm jealous of you people that get to snowshoe and ski around all the time.
I'm sure I'll think of some more to post later.
My crappy northface 0 degree bag with a blue walmart pad underneath has worked for me down into the teens possibly single digits. I wear underarmor, fleece and socks while sleeping and only once have I had to throw on my jacket. I'm a cold sleeper but one thing that really helps me is to eat something with a lot of calories right before I go to sleep. I also bring some olive oil and add some to everything I cook which is an easy way to add calories. Maybe this is some kind of weird placebo effect but it seems to work for me.
As far as tents, if I know it's going to be really windy I use a eureka spitfire but otherwise a tarp. In my opinion, you don't really need a 4 season tent in this area, but experiment and see what works for you.
Footwear for me is a thin liner sock, a thick warm sock, sealskinz and some nike free sneakers. I don't like relying on insulated footwear. The inov8s should work great, I'd like a pair of these someday. I take an extra pair of socks to wear in the sleeping bag.
Unless something really out of character happens you probably won't have much snow like you mentioned already. I only throw on the gators if there's at least a foot of snow.
My stove is a pocket rocket and it's never failed me in the winter yet. I also have an alcohol stove but I haven't been able to test that in the winter yet.
My pack weight is normally somewhere between 25 and 30 pounds for winter here but our winters are pretty mild. I'm jealous of you people that get to snowshoe and ski around all the time.
I'm sure I'll think of some more to post later.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
I'll have to respectfully disagree here. Ultralight philosophies are just as appropriate in any season. Trying to find the lightest, appropriate (read safe) gear and not carrying everything but the kitchen sink- applies year round. I've never seen any "experts" extolling to carry anything less than what is appropriate for the season and terrain they are traveling in. Personally, I would tend to listen to folks that have experienced 100,00 failure-free miles!
Traveling safe in the backcountry requires a skill set regardless of season. Choosing appropriate gear (and the knowledge to use it) is part of that skill set.
"Winter" is a lot of different things to different people, but I'm confident I could safely put together a 35# gear list for winter travel for my region.
mike
Respectfully, when I read an article in backpacker advocating a razor blade as a "knife" for backpacking without regard to locale, I think that is questionable advice. I suppose there is a place where that is good advice, but the author did not specify location.
Equipment, at a weight price, can compensate for lower skills. (Please note that I did not say "replace.")
Selecting gear is a matter of knowledge, including knowledge of one's skills. Doing with less is a matter of skills - or luck. Fortune favors the prepared.
Your comment on "Winter" is so right on.
Frank, are you talking about Ray Jardine's story of crossing an ice field recounted in PCT Hiker's Guide?
I've had a too heavy pack wearing NB running shoes. It wasn't too good. The terrain(summer) was steep and the shoes were not resilient enough to keep my foot in place within the shoe; so I kinda know what you mean. I did not mean to sound like I was suggesting running shoes for hilly winter terrain, I was just going on because I really like these boots. Nevertheless if the low tops can keep your foot on top of the sole(or properly position within the shoe) I really don't see any advantage over boots for hiking, scrambling, and the like.
I've had a too heavy pack wearing NB running shoes. It wasn't too good. The terrain(summer) was steep and the shoes were not resilient enough to keep my foot in place within the shoe; so I kinda know what you mean. I did not mean to sound like I was suggesting running shoes for hilly winter terrain, I was just going on because I really like these boots. Nevertheless if the low tops can keep your foot on top of the sole(or properly position within the shoe) I really don't see any advantage over boots for hiking, scrambling, and the like.
I think "what is winter" is the important subjective word. The biggest factor is the longer and farther you are out, the more exposed you will become. Gear that is designed to protect your insulation is of upmost importance. i.e hard shell boots, VBL etc. If you lose your insulation 75 miles from nowhere and temps are in the negative, you better know what you are doing. The Bear Grylls method of getting a bonfire started off camera will not save you or your friends.
I have been out and have people in the party go hypo, 99% of the time it is because they do not how to regulate their core or they fail to protect their insulation i.e. user failure, not gear failure.
I have been out and have people in the party go hypo, 99% of the time it is because they do not how to regulate their core or they fail to protect their insulation i.e. user failure, not gear failure.
Nope, i was just recalling personal experience...
I like much of Ray's approach to things - critically thinking through what we do and why we do it. That's the mindset that helps us learn and improve how/what we do. I was thinking of some hiking i was doing in Kentucky's "Red River Gorge" and was wearing my favorite "approach" shoes and was carrying pack which was too heavy. I knew i was going to be doing some scrambling, side-hill hiking and some off-trail navigating to get to a really sweet camp spot over-looking the Red River and wanted to lighten my load as well as equip myself with good climbing footwear. The climbing part was spot on - my Garmont "Sticky Weekend" shoes were awesome, but the side-hill hiking part didn't work out so well. That and once in camp, my feet froze!
No worries! I don't take offense for 'differing' opinions/experiences. Rolled ankles happen in high-tops too. In my experience there are lots of right ways to do things. There are some things that are wrong, but i try to keep an open mind to find how something *can* work. That being said, my experience over nearly 30 years of this stuff has led me to form some pretty unchangeable opinions.
I've never camped in snow but I've been using a space blanket from warmers.com they work really good for cold weather camping down to freezing at least. Unfortunately for me it doesn't snow in Fla. These things work as advertised, sometimes I've even started sweating warped up in one. Not good, but I was warm.
I agree, philosophically and in principle. Carrying too much is problematic, but the problem lies in the knowledge (or lack thereof) of what is excessive packing, packing appropriately for a margin of safety, or simply not being adequately equipped. People who are new to the sport are better off with a well-padded margin of safety b/c they don't as yet have the skill-set to navigate catastrophe.
I've never seen any "experts" extolling to carry anything less than what is appropriate for the season and terrain they are traveling in. Personally, I would tend to listen to folks that have experienced 100,00 failure-free miles!
Ha! I agree! However, 100,000 failure-free miles in non-winter conditions really isn't that helpful. Experience is all about context.
I wonder what most people in the USA think of when "winter" is mentioned? I wonder if they think of snow drifts and such or rainy, grey weather? Interesting to learn folks' frame of reference.
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- Oct 26, 2000
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That's very quotable! :thumbup:
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2010
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- 30
Here is a list of stuff I took with me on a 4 day backcountry ski trip.
http://www.larsonweb.com/gearlists/id3.html
http://www.larsonweb.com/gearlists/id3.html