WSK Design Ownership Who has right to reproduce?

Mr. Beck:

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the subject. I was just reading the thread and, honestly, was reminded of different and obvious infringements where one company makes a blatant copy of another company's hard work and inspiration. Gerber with the Evo and CRKT/M16, as one example. Another might be the Spydie "hole" or the Emerson Wave.

The point of design infringement, at least in this case, would seem to be moot. YOU are the designer and seem more than happy for others to copy this design.

What do I know, though. I'm an engineer... not an attorney. I'm also a knife buyer. ;)

Good luck to you, Mr. Beck, in your current pursuits and also to you, Aaron.
 
Dave.

It was great to hear from you, I was just about ready to call you this week since we havent talked in a few months. talk to you soon.

Ralph
 
ralph.merlino said:
The Tracker design was Dave Becks, only after he failed to copyright the knife Tom Brown got the copyright and said that the knife was his design, Not true the Tracker is all Dave Beck.

A copyright protects the use of the term "tracker knife". I do not see anything in the design itself that would warrant a pattent. It has virtually the same features that have been used for decades by PUMA, Aitor, and many others. TB jr. is a clown who has earned a seat next to Lynn Thompson.

n2s
 
If Tom & TOPS are pissed that others are copying their pattern, fine. Don't use it. Copy mine. Everyone has my permission. Copy the knife from the movie. Tell them you were influenced by my work as they are. As far as I am concerned, this knife has been produced by so many knifemakers, in so many variations for so long it should be concidered public domain. No body should be able to claim exclusive rights to it. Use my design & have fun with it.

Dave,

You are a stand up guy. Thanks for helping us with this TB BS.

n2s
 
Dave I appreciate you clearing this up for me and maybe it is time to tell these guys to piss up a rope. I have always been a great admire and you were truly the inspiration here.
Aaron Pullen
aaron@redscorpionsix.com
Hope you like our knife.
 
Dave Beck,

I regret to hear that you have had so much difficulty over your trade. I am glad to hear you are happier with your family, which is what matters most in life. In reality it us who have suffered the biggest loss by losing such a great knife maker who’s love clearly shone through his work. You must know that anyone with half a brain here, credits you with this design, and knows of its superiority over the TOPS version.

It is rare in this day and age to find someone of your integrity and it is appreciated. Good luck to all who decides to continue to keep the "DAVE BECK TRACKER" design alive.

Best Wishes to you and your family.
 
Email sent, Dave. Thanks for posting. :thumbup:
 
Mr. Beck:

As martial artist and knife instructor I say that you are a real asset to us knifenuts. You are a professional in all the sense of the word.

RS6:

I was one of the guys who judged you hard in the beginning. Now I see that you are a true bussinessman with a quality product. I think the best way to show TB and TOPS that you are better, is by continuing to make a great, quality knife based on Mr. Beck's design. I think that's the best tribute to such a great knifemaker. I wish you the best of lucks and I will be ordering my RS6 "Predator" knife soon.

BTW, RS6, if you are ever interested in some designs based on my personnal experience, send me a message. I've worked on a few knife designs that only need a maker to put 'em out there.

C. Roman
 
Thank you all for the kind words. It's greatly appreciated.

Longbaugh,
Basically, there were two std. lengths of blades but other sizes were fabricated for special requests.
There were four handle variations including one which had a steel pummel for pounding.
I had ten Tracker knife variations in all that were standard offerings. Customers could have ordered one of those with a vast array of handle material, blade finishes & steel types or have one specially modified to suit their needs. There were also four different smaller companion knives which could have been added. One of these, my "Kestrel" was also seen in "The Hunted" during a brief scene in the subway where the knife was thrown into an agents neck.
I am not certain what you mean as the batoning process but I did prefer the saw teeth up front & never cut them the all the way back to the handle without the recess. The forward position was important because the saw was really only used for cutting square notches for plug-type trap triggers.
This type of cut is difficult to make in the field without some sort of special tool. The reason this feature was important is because a plug type trap trigger is very versatile & can hold the extra weight of heavier, more loadbearing traps. It also placed the trap wire going to your deadfall of other device used tightly against the support (tree, etc) that the plug was set into for better consealment & safe from obstructions which could come into contact & tamper with your set.

If I recall right, there were five variations prior to comming up with the "C" model (which was the one used in the film). I would have to check my records but the "C" model TRACKER was introduced somewhere between 1991 - 1993 if I recall right.

I don't attend many rendesvous anymore. Rather than playing the woodsman I'd rather live it. We also took up kayaking last year & that's kind of became an obsession with me. Right now I'm designing a sea kayak I'd like to build in my shop now that I moved my knifemaking equipment off to the side.

There was another question posted about a copyright.
A copyright is something which would protect something of art. Example: A picture, song, statue, etc. Although it could apply to the knife if you looked at it as an art form, copyrights generally don't apply to something which has utilitarian uses. You wouldn't just frame & look at it, you would use it. A copy right might be applied but the protection it offers is probably very limited & wouldn't protect the design. I highly doubt that Tom Brown would have sought a copyright for any type of protection. If his knife would have been used in the film then there might have been some benefit to having this.
As far as the term "TRACKER" goes, that would be protected by a trademark. If you remember, that was the legal discrepancy I got into with Tom when I began making my knives again. Everyone knew my pattern as the TRACKER knife & owning that right could be important to some. The problem I ran into is that even though I did own the trademark at one time, once you drop it & let it pass beyond a year of expiration & then reapply for the mark, the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office looks at it as if you are using it for the first time & it's ownership rights are then open for challenge by others. Even though I probably could have regained the Trademark, the cost of a court battle for it would have been more than its worth for the amount of knives I was producing. I got around the problem by simply changing the name to the BECK WSK (Wilderness Survival Knife). As long as my name was on the blade, everyone would know the difference no matter what I called it.

One last little thing, I know there have been some concerns about some of the fellows producing their own versions these days. Each has its' own good & bad points but understand it's a difficult knife to produce correctly & as these makers make more of their knives they'll become more fine tuned. They are all doing a fine job & need your support & constructive criticizm to produce a better product. Expect delay & glitches. Nothing becomes perfect & fluent overnight. One example is with the RedScorpion Predator. I have one here that I'm reviewing & have had several discussions about it with Aaron.
He has a fine product. Yes, there are some details which could be enhanced & I'm sure he will address them as he's able. I have found him to be very pofessionally-minded & quite knowedgeable in his trade & he is constantly working hard to produce a higher quality product. He offers his work at reasonable prices & I believe you will be seeing some fine work comming out of his shop. I believe this to also be true of some of the other craftsmen I've seen working with this pattern.

David R. Beck
 
50 78215821 TOM BROWN TRACKER 001 TOM BROWN'S TRACKING, NATURE, AND WILDERNESS SURVIVAL SCHOOL TARR DEAD

this is interesting.
 
Good job Aaron, I wondered how long that would take? If Dave says your blades are fine, that's good enough for me. I have great respect for Dave's work and will trust his opinion on your blades. Getting Dave to endorse an import over TOPS was a stroke of genius considering his comments about no compromise. As for the TARR (dead) your attorney should have gave you that right off, along with 19 U.S.C. 1304.
 
Hello Gentlemen,
Just thought I would add my 2 cents. There was a similar issue in the music biz not long ago where Paul Reed Smith guitars started making a single cutaway guitar that looked a lot like the Gibson Les Paul. Well, Gibson sued and as you can imagine, although PRS is a smaller company, the battle of the titans was on. Well, PRS had to stop making there single cutaway for about a year while the court battle raged but in the end the courts said that Gibson had no leg to stand on because a simple shape or design could not be patented. A paten covers a design that has a specific purpose that nothing else can do and the guitar in general has been around to long to be covered by such a paten. So the shape was not protected. PRS began making their single cutaway again at the beginning of the year.
I would think this same argument would apply to the Beck Tracker design because basically it's the shape that makes it unique and the KNIFE has been around far too long to paten.

Dave, it's great to see you here again. I hope you are doing well. We miss you here in knife land. Take care.

Ric

P.S.
You know, there used to be quite a few classes I wanted to take at the Tracker School but the more I hear stuff like this about TBjr the more I think I will get my training at Earthwalk Northwest or some other school. This is unbelievable
 
DRBeckKnives said:
There was another question posted about a copyright.
A copyright is something which would protect something of art. Example: A picture, song, statue, etc. Although it could apply to the knife if you looked at it as an art form, copyrights generally don't apply to something which has utilitarian uses. You wouldn't just frame & look at it, you would use it. A copy right might be applied but the protection it offers is probably very limited & wouldn't protect the design. I highly doubt that Tom Brown would have sought a copyright for any type of protection. If his knife would have been used in the film then there might have been some benefit to having this.

Copyrights can be applied to industrial designs and they cover the intellectual property of the design. So it would be the design and not the knife itself that was covered under the copyright. If it is an easily recogizable design then it is covered under a copyright. This copyright does not have to be registered. Some jurisdictions do not recognize industrial design copyrights.
 
I also just found out by searching the US Patent and Trademark Office website that you can get a patent on a design. I always thought that you could only get a patent on something functional, but you can actually patent the look of something. The quote below is taken from their website.

The Difference Between Design and Utility Patents

In general terms, a “utility patent” protects the way an article is used and works (35 U.S.C. 101), while a "design patent" protects the way an article looks (35 U.S.C. 171). Both design and utility patents may be obtained on an article if invention resides both in its utility and ornamental appearance. While utility and design patents afford legally separate protection, the utility and ornamentality of an article are not easily separable. Articles of manufacture may possess both functional and ornamental characteristics.


I'm not saying that Tom Brown has such a patent, but just found it interesting that such patents exist.
 
They are not claiming or at least they have not revealed any such patent, trademark or copyright. If they had such a thing it would have been quickly sent and pointed out. There would be no gray area in that case.
I am happy that Dave Beck gave the right to reproduce his design. This is the true designer and owner of any rights since he came up with the design and produced the actual blade. The other guy just resold Dave's work and had a way to promote and sell it. That is where our position is. Dave was the inspiration behind our design because it is the most optimal design. Hell Beck coined the Wilderness Survival Knife as WSK.
We are driving on and They can continue to sell the way they do. It hardly effects us. We tried to produce an optimal choice in this arena and evidently we have. Otherwise we would not have gotten the attention we have. It is proven and is a solid product. We are just happy to offer the choice that was necessary.
 
Guys I appreciate all of those who have backed us up. We are facing some challenges with the Trade Dress issue so this may end up being a short lived project. Not that they have any grounds but the fight comes down to Principle vs. Economics. Economics usually win out. I am not sure that the pay off is there for either side. If they fight, they lose and so do I. It is shameful that we are ending this way because by all of your comments we did it right.
I have only a few blades left as it is now. I have sold most off to an individual reseller/collector. I am not sure of his intentions.
Thank you all and I hope to see you out here with our next design.
Aaron
RS6 Blades, LLC
 
wow. tom brown is looking like an ass yet again. sooner or later ill stop liking him. oh well.

Dave, nice to see you are still around, you make the best design WSK anyway. Nice to see you are a stand up guy also.

RS6 - you have a great looking knife, dont back down! thank god it doesnt come with the crappy plastic coating the "tom brown tracker" does.
 
I am having discussions with Tracker now on this very subject and they have sent an agreement over but it seems somewhat pointless we have the majority of the knives sold already. We are now working on our next design.
Dave- Thanks for all of your help on shedding light on the design history. I think quite frankly that we are of the mind set that they have to do what they think they need to do. We are going to stay the course and make great knives. I suggest they get back to doing what they do. I think most of their frustration comes from the timing of their new product launch of the mini Tracker knife.
Guys- Thanks for your support. I greatly appreciate all of the comments and encouragement.
Hope we Win. They are going to have to prove their grounds if they want me stop. We did not COPY any portion of their design and they do not possess a Patent on the Design on configuration or function. It is a piece of steel with an edge. We are looking into harrassment issues.
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (Edmund Burke, 1729 - 1797)
 
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