You all ruined my Worksharp!

[dkb45]

I thought of something... Do I have too many grits? I currently have my DMT XC, 240, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, and 2000 for my sharpening setup. I feel like that is possibly too many papers, leading to little gain for a lot of time. Could I trim that down to just the 240, 800, 1000, and 2000 without losing sharpness?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Don't have anything to make slurry with. If it comes off my diamond stone or sandpaper, I should not try and dig my knife through my abrasive. No natural stones here.

You can use the compound on hardwood and add a few drops of mineral oil. I have also had some success lifting useful mud from the surface of a used sheet of wet/dry suspended with a few drops of mineral oil and mopped up with a sheet of paper, but that's for use as a strop, not so much a lapping board. The grit/mud from a silicon carbide stone can be reclaimed in the same manner. Here are a couple videos, the first using a slurry with black compound to set the edge up, and the second is with Flexcut gold to refine it - also using plain paper to finish it off. This method is a bit challenging to manage the consistency of the slurry (which is critical) and the surface texture of the board itself (also critical), so I seldom use it anymore, but it makes a real nice edge with very little equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nxmn-aJwQY

[video=youtube;gfblDsTy-FY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfblDsTy-FY[/video]

 

[cbwx34]

I thought of something... Do I have too many grits? I currently have my DMT XC, 240, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, and 2000 for my sharpening setup. I feel like that is possibly too many papers, leading to little gain for a lot of time. Could I trim that down to just the 240, 800, 1000, and 2000 without losing sharpness?

Depends on what your goal is. Sharp can be had with just one coarse and one fine grit. But if you're looking for refinement and/or the mirror polish, typically the more steps the better. Of course the catch there is there's more chance for error. But if you eliminate a step and still want refinement, chances are you'll just spend more time at the next level, which could lengthen your sharpening time.

It also depends on your needs. In your example, if you use the XC, then you may need a couple of steps to clean up the XC scratches. But on a knife in decent shape, you might start 400, 800, 2000. Quick sharpening? 400/1500 or 240/800 (basically one coarse, one fine) will get it done.

If you want to eliminate steps, I'd either do it one at a time, and see how you like the results, or switch to a 2 or 3 step process, then add an in between step where needed.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I tried stropping on paper. It didn't do much of anything. My edges aren't close to perfectly flat, so the paper isn't contacting the edge very well. My super hard Flexcut strop with gold on it is working quite well though.

Touching up the edge with the 6k belt was very helpful. The M390 Barrage I did turned out terrible, but the ZT 700 I did is able to almost push cut tissue paper. My first attempt turned out pretty well.

For what it's worth, almost all of my finished bevels are convexed. The bevels don't need to be flat at all; 99% of all hand-sharpened knives won't have them anyway.

If attempting stropping on plain paper, it wouldn't do too much polishing or refining anyway, aside from cleaning up any remaining loose burrs & weakened remnants of sharpening from the stones. Not to say this isn't a valid goal & worthwhile in itself, if wanting to retain the toothy edge left by the stones. But, if the goal is polishing or refining the scratch pattern left by the stones, then some compound would be necessary. Differing grades or thicknesses of paper can also make a big difference. I've liked using some heavier art/drawing paper (some textured) for these purposes. It stays flatter, if not actually affixed/glued to the hard backing (I do use adhesive with mine), and is also very durable, as compared to simple writing papers which will wear more rapidly. Using glue or other adhesive to firmly affix the paper to the hard backing will ensure there's no curling or wrapping of the paper around the apex, which minimizes any chance of edge-rounding. It also provides a much more stable footing from which the compound can work more aggressively.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'll add that even when using (presumably) high silica content linen paper, the likelihood of rounding an edge on paper is extremely minimal. On my Washboard I recommend and do so myself, elevating the spine a degree or so when doing a final burnishing on plain paper. It can tolerate an eyebrow raising amount of pressure without any real edge rounding, even at high magnification.

I totally agree with the usual application for plain paper to be a final step when you don't want to move to a higher polish - is a great way to clean up the edge. It seems to work very well at any level of polish, but for medium and coarse finishes i'll use light pressure and an extra layer - for a finale on finer edges I'll use more pressure and a single layer of paper.

 

[dkb45]

Depends on what your goal is. Sharp can be had with just one coarse and one fine grit. But if you're looking for refinement and/or the mirror polish, typically the more steps the better. Of course the catch there is there's more chance for error. But if you eliminate a step and still want refinement, chances are you'll just spend more time at the next level, which could lengthen your sharpening time.

It also depends on your needs. In your example, if you use the XC, then you may need a couple of steps to clean up the XC scratches. But on a knife in decent shape, you might start 400, 800, 2000. Quick sharpening? 400/1500 or 240/800 (basically one coarse, one fine) will get it done.

If you want to eliminate steps, I'd either do it one at a time, and see how you like the results, or switch to a 2 or 3 step process, then add an in between step where needed.

I will always insist on taking my edges through the 2000. If I get ahold of some lapping film I will finish with that too. My goal is unnecessarily sharp edges.

I checked out the video above, too. Never used oil with compounds, I just ignore them until they get super loaded up and apply more on the top. I have read that you can rub a little oil into a loaded strop to refresh it, but I haven't tried that. I should. I'm actually planning on getting some balsa for a strop here in a little bit, and finding a proper sized piece of wood to use as a base (no woodworking tools so I gotta find a prepare one). I should be able to use one of my deep bucked paint stirrers just fine.

As for stropping on paper, I just can't get behind it. I have a strop I made and my new Flexcut strop, both are working amazingly with light pressure or heavier pressure and a more acute angle (to round the shoulder, not the apex).

I also think my XC stone is worn to be finer than the 240 sandpaper. It is also not leaving that many deep scratches, more proof of it being worn (prematurely from improper technique).

 

[sir_mike]

I still plan on getting some DMT for freehand. The diamonds will last a lot longer than sandpaper and work on every steel really well. I plan on adding some ceramic on top of the DMT EF in the near future. Really, since my knife went through a proper grit progression (which is what is most likely holding the Worksharp back, straight from 220 to 6k is insane... but my 220 is more like 500 now from wear). I should be able to take my knife finished on 2k to 6k without too much issue. I will try it out and post my results.

What are some ceramics that are CHEAP and finer than 2k sandpaper? I can live with a smaller (3" minimum, 4" or bigger is preferred) stone, I only need the grit. I know I can get lapping film, but that stuff has a limited life like sandpaper.

Maybe the Spyderco benchstones! Just guessing as I am not that great at sharpening or the equipment side!

 

[David Martin]

The ulta fine Spyderco ceramic stone is about that. DM

 

[David Martin]

That stone is rated at 220. DM

 

[dkb45]

That stone is rated at 220. DM

I knew it was somewhere around 200. As far as I know that is the rating of a brand new stone, and the high points will shear off, and too much pressure will rip the taller diamonds out. The scratch pattern from it seems to be a little more coarse than the 240 sandpaper, but that is fresh. I also have not fixed the edge up to see which is sharper, I am just going on looks.

 

[dkb45]

I have done 3 knives with sandpaper now, and also redid all 3 to look prettier and have more crisp bevels. I did my normal progression from XC to 240 through 2k, and the most recent 2 (801 and M390 Barrage) were finished with my Micro-Mesh cushioned files down to 2 microns. The finish is a (not perfect) mirror finish, but the sharpness is odd. While the apex is crisp and it bites like a damp razor feeling the apex with my fingers, they don't cut super well. It could be from the lack of teeth I am used to from my Worksharp edges. I checked burrs every step of the way, and kept my angles nice and consistent and kept the light touch good.

Should an edge finished to a mirror finish on 2 microns have difficulty slicing tissue paper? It flies through phone book paper, but it doesn't cut tissue paper like it was before I started sandpaper.

I am thinking about buying a DMT XF/XXF Diafold. I know the 3 micron of the XXF would be way finer than 2k, and while it may not be as fine as my 2 micron file, I will gladly trade a less fine finish for an area that is bigger than about .5x6".

 

[HeavyHanded]

I have done 3 knives with sandpaper now, and also redid all 3 to look prettier and have more crisp bevels. I did my normal progression from XC to 240 through 2k, and the most recent 2 (801 and M390 Barrage) were finished with my Micro-Mesh cushioned files down to 2 microns. The finish is a (not perfect) mirror finish, but the sharpness is odd. While the apex is crisp and it bites like a damp razor feeling the apex with my fingers, they don't cut super well. It could be from the lack of teeth I am used to from my Worksharp edges. I checked burrs every step of the way, and kept my angles nice and consistent and kept the light touch good.

Should an edge finished to a mirror finish on 2 microns have difficulty slicing tissue paper? It flies through phone book paper, but it doesn't cut tissue paper like it was before I started sandpaper.

I am thinking about buying a DMT XF/XXF Diafold. I know the 3 micron of the XXF would be way finer than 2k, and while it may not be as fine as my 2 micron file, I will gladly trade a less fine finish for an area that is bigger than about .5x6".

I would be concerned that the apex might be exposed to some micro rounding. Not being sure what the Micro-Mesh is like, or what the backing is for your sandpaper, it is an easy thing to underestimate inclusive angles when working on sandpaper. It will have a small amount of give in most applications and this needs to be accounted for. Generally in my experience if the edge looses a lot of efficiency as you describe, the inclusive getting larger might be a prime culprit. I have shear cut TP with an edge at 120 grit sandpaper, but was at approx 20* inclusive, at 2k (or more coarse) the edge should be up to the task even at somewhat broader angles...

 

[dkb45]

My Micro-Mesh cushioned files have a little give to them, less than a stiff mouse pad. Since I am only using my 3 over 2k grit, the rounding should be almost nil. My sandpaper is being used a backing of pine wood (I used a wrap method similar to the washboard) and cut the sandpaper into ~8" strips. Rubbing the sandpaper with a belt cleaner bar periodically to remove powder.

One issue I ran into that I didn't expect was refinement. I don't have any compound that can refine on the 2 micron, with my finest being green. I'm sure there are things I can use around the house, I just don't know what any of them are. I do have a tube of Simichrome if that will help. I would figure either rouge or white should be around 2 microns, but it won't proceed on that path without input... don't need to buy a useless stick of compound.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I would be concerned that the apex might be exposed to some micro rounding. Not being sure what the Micro-Mesh is like, or what the backing is for your sandpaper, it is an easy thing to underestimate inclusive angles when working on sandpaper. It will have a small amount of give in most applications and this needs to be accounted for. Generally in my experience if the edge looses a lot of efficiency as you describe, the inclusive getting larger might be a prime culprit. I have shear cut TP with an edge at 120 grit sandpaper, but was at approx 20* inclusive, at 2k (or more coarse) the edge should be up to the task even at somewhat broader angles...

That's the first thing that occurred to me as well. Especially if the edge 'feels crisp' to the fingertips (and assuming it actually is), but still doesn't cut paper very well. The edge geometry being a little too wide would be the first thing I'd look for.

The footing under the sandpaper is more critical at higher finish as well. If the paper is able to move at all, by curling or lifting or rolling slightly over/around the apex, the finished result is going to bear that out, with edges that will be rounded off slightly. This is why I've settled firmly into a habit of making sure the paper is adhered snugly to a hard backing; edges finish a lot crisper this way, at any grit level.


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

My Micro-Mesh cushioned files have a little give to them, less than a stiff mouse pad. Since I am only using my 3 over 2k grit, the rounding should be almost nil. My sandpaper is being used a backing of pine wood (I used a wrap method similar to the washboard) and cut the sandpaper into ~8" strips. Rubbing the sandpaper with a belt cleaner bar periodically to remove powder.

One issue I ran into that I didn't expect was refinement. I don't have any compound that can refine on the 2 micron, with my finest being green. I'm sure there are things I can use around the house, I just don't know what any of them are. I do have a tube of Simichrome if that will help. I would figure either rouge or white should be around 2 microns, but it won't proceed on that path without input... don't need to buy a useless stick of compound.

The 'almost nil' is still enough to notice in the finished results. If there's enough give to actually feel or see under your blade, then it'll be enough to degrade the result slightly. That can make the difference between shaving or not, or cutting more challenging grades of paper (or not). I used some micro-mesh over glass to finish a couple of Opinel blades (one 'carbone' and one stainless), after sanding them to a zero-grind up through 2k grit. The micro-mesh polished the blades pretty nicely, but I was a little disappointed with the edge crispness left by the micro-mesh. I've since refinished those edges using sandpaper affixed over glass (with adhesive) and following that with stropping, using firmly-affixed paper-over-glass and compound. Edges are much crisper, and cut accordingly well.


David

 

[bgentry]

I am thinking about buying a DMT XF/XXF Diafold. I know the 3 micron of the XXF would be way finer than 2k, and while it may not be as fine as my 2 micron file, I will gladly trade a less fine finish for an area that is bigger than about .5x6".

Hopefully someone will speak up with experience with the EEF (XXF) DMT. I've used the EF (XF) a lot, and it does NOT finish like you'd expect from the micron rating. Not even close! It finishes something like the Spyderco medium stones, or maybe like the Worksharp X22. It's probably right in between them actually, as it finishes a bit more coarse than the Spyderco medium, which is around 15 microns. I actually really like the edge it leaves, as it's refined enough to shave hair and slice phonebook paper like crazy, but it also seems moderately toothy. The EF DMT is a good ending stone for kitchen knives in my limited experience.

Brian.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Hopefully someone will speak up with experience with the EEF (XXF) DMT. I've used the EF (XF) a lot, and it does NOT finish like you'd expect from the micron rating. Not even close! It finishes something like the Spyderco medium stones, or maybe like the Worksharp X22. It's probably right in between them actually, as it finishes a bit more coarse than the Spyderco medium, which is around 15 microns. I actually really like the edge it leaves, as it's refined enough to shave hair and slice phonebook paper like crazy, but it also seems moderately toothy. The EF DMT is a good ending stone for kitchen knives in my limited experience.

Brian.

That sounds about right. :thumbup:

A 3µ diamond hone (like DMT's EEF) will still likely leave a somewhat coarser finish than 2k sandpaper. The 2k sandpaper is very close to revealing a mirror (more or less; varies according to the steel), while the 3µ diamond is still going to leave a very refined 'satin' finish. The bulk of the difference is in the 3X-4X hardness differential, between diamond and either SiC or AlOx wet/dry sandpaper. The very hard steel & nickel bedding under the diamond abrasive will also make it dig more aggressively than the paper-backed SiC or AlOx, and leave deeper scratches accordingly.

HOWEVER, if one were to use 3µ Dia-Paste instead, on a wooden strop, like mdf, balsa, etc, the softer backing (relatively, as compared to steel & nickel) under the abrasive will make it perform much finer. 3µ paste can produce a mirror finish FAST, assuming a decent grit progression leading up to it. The difference in substrate used makes all the difference, even when using identical grit.


David

 

[dkb45]

I have never been super keen on pastes. Too much room for error with an idiot like me. I will probably get some lapping film if I go down to under 5 microns. Glad I asked about the XXF. Now that I have a mirror finish achieved, I don't want to get rid of it.

As for the edge being slightly convexed, I'm used to nothing but convex edges. While the mirror finish lacks the bite, it does cut better, and it is way better to show off I just gotta get used to an edge with little bite. Not like I needed the bite, it was just fun to take tissue paper and just slice strip after strip off.

Keep in mind, all this is a butt load of information to take in. You can't expect me to get it perfect in only 3 knives over 3 days. I'm doing pretty well for how new I am to freehand sharpening.

 

[HeavyHanded]

My Micro-Mesh cushioned files have a little give to them, less than a stiff mouse pad. Since I am only using my 3 over 2k grit, the rounding should be almost nil. My sandpaper is being used a backing of pine wood (I used a wrap method similar to the washboard) and cut the sandpaper into ~8" strips. Rubbing the sandpaper with a belt cleaner bar periodically to remove powder.

One issue I ran into that I didn't expect was refinement. I don't have any compound that can refine on the 2 micron, with my finest being green. I'm sure there are things I can use around the house, I just don't know what any of them are. I do have a tube of Simichrome if that will help. I would figure either rouge or white should be around 2 microns, but it won't proceed on that path without input... don't need to buy a useless stick of compound.

The Flexcut Gold should make a good bit of improvement over the 2k - pretty sure it has a range of abrasive running from about 3u down to .5u. The white compound made by Ryobi is going to be a bit finer as is the green CrO made by Formax (sold at Woodcraft) - both about .5u and can make a mirror finish (or close enough). You already have the Flexcut, might as well give it a try.

Preserving the edge geometry over the last few progressions can be a challenge and will really make or break the cutting characteristics of the polished edge relative to less refined finishes.

 

[dkb45]

The Flexcut Gold should make a good bit of improvement over the 2k - pretty sure it has a range of abrasive running from about 3u down to .5u. The white compound made by Ryobi is going to be a bit finer as is the green CrO made by Formax (sold at Woodcraft) - both about .5u and can make a mirror finish (or close enough). You already have the Flexcut, might as well give it a try.

Preserving the edge geometry over the last few progressions can be a challenge and will really make or break the cutting characteristics of the polished edge relative to less refined finishes.

Odd, I read that Flexcut gold was more coarse than most green compounds (which I read to generally be around 5 microns). I won't be surprised if I am dead wrong... you can't believe everything you read on the internet.