Zapp Z-Wear experience and heat treat

There is a lot of voodoo circulating. I'm not claiming anything yet. I'm just giving HT regimes and resultant hardness. I'll be doing tests on edge abuse and wear resistance later.

Additionally, I thought my Rc tester was broken, but the S35VN and CPM3V came out at Rc60 as expected. The Z-Wear came out at Rc63/64, when cryo was used, Rc1.5-2 higher than expected. Cryo as part of quench is worth Rc1-2 over cryo later, or no cryo. Sub zero doesn't give the same results as cryo with z-wear.

I might test sub zero vs cryo at some point, but it's on the back burner for the time being.
 
Willie71 said:
There is a lot of voodoo circulating. I'm not claiming anything yet. I'm just giving HT regimes and resultant hardness. I'll be doing tests on edge abuse and wear resistance later.

Additionally, I thought my Rc tester was broken, but the S35VN and CPM3V came out at Rc60 as expected. The Z-Wear came out at Rc63/64, when cryo was used, Rc1.5-2 higher than expected. Cryo as part of quench is worth Rc1-2 over cryo later, or no cryo. Sub zero doesn't give the same results as cryo with z-wear.

I might test sub zero vs cryo at some point, but it's on the back burner for the time being.
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Thanks for the result Willie! still interest on how 400F temper compare to 1000F on this kind of steel.
 
The one I've done so far was tempered at 1000F and was 62 RC after the first temper.

Maybe I missed this but what's the "why" for tempering at 400 vs 1000?
 
kuraki said:
The one I've done so far was tempered at 1000F and was 62 RC after the first temper.

Maybe I missed this but what's the "why" for tempering at 400 vs 1000?
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400F tempering is to avoid secondary hardening which will having carbide participated in larger amount thus lower toughness and corrosion resistance.

This applied applied to many tool steel with some amount of CrMoV like D2, 3V, M390, S30V etc.

But we need continuous cryo as part of the primary quench to deal with RA problem.

On some steel with too much alloy content such as most high speed this properly not a very good idea because of the amount of as quenched RA would be too high to be solve with the cryo and 1000F tempering is the only proper way to go.

For Cru-Wear type of steel it is pretty much in the middle between cold work tool steel and high speed. It fall into the "matrix high speed steel" so I'm not sure if the modified fast cryo => 400F tempering gonna be a good option.
 
Huntsman Knife Co. said:
I have been using Z wear in one of my mid sized blades. I haven't gotten to test it extensively myself but some of my customers have told me they are very happy with its performance.

I run it at 61 and avoid the secondary hardening bump. At this hardness its definitley more difficult to grind that 3V which makes me think it will have better edge retention. I run 3V in my small knives at 62 with the high austenization temperature and low tempering temps. It performs very well in its own right but I think Z wear is going to be the winner in the edge retention department.

I take the edges down very thin before sharpening just like 3V and it seems to be able to maintain a thin edge through hard use.

I had blanks run at 63 to test the secondary hardening curve but I haven't gotten around to grinding them yet.

FullSizeRender%203_zpsvf2nzg89.jpg
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This is the knife I was talking about. Very impressed!
 
Does anyone know what peters heat treat does for this steel? (Z-wear)
Im gonna shoot for 61HRC for a knife with a 3.5-4 inch blade.
Would that be tough enough for general edc and camp tasks? (Light to medium batoning, etc)

I made knife in 01 tool steel at 59HRC and it held up great for everthing i threw at it. I feel like this is a silly question but with the z-wear at 61HRC totally and completely outperform the O1 at 59HRC?
Heres a pic of the knife profile
e72b48fb5890d10e88be0c953279d7d7.jpg


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I would go Rc62, but Rc61 will be fine. Ask for a 1975f austentize. Z-wear is the highest performing steel in terms of balancing toughness with wear resistance I've used so far. It'll take a very fine edge, easier than S35VN, making a great kitchen knife, and is at least as tough as W2/O1 etc. If you feel you need a bit of extra toughness, go with 1950f austentize.

Your best bet is to call Peter's and ask them what their heat treat process is. Others have posted great performance with Peter's heat treat with this steel.
 
Willie71 said:
I would go Rc62, but Rc61 will be fine. Ask for a 1975f austentize. Z-wear is the highest performing steel in terms of balancing toughness with wear resistance I've used so far. It'll take a very fine edge, easier than S35VN, making a great kitchen knife, and is at least as tough as W2/O1 etc. If you feel you need a bit of extra toughness, go with 1950f austentize.

Your best bet is to call Peter's and ask them what their heat treat process is. Others have posted great performance with Peter's heat treat with this steel.
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Ok thank you very much. I will definitely try out Z-wear.
Unfortunately my supplier doesn't have the thickness i need for zwear. They have CuWear in the thickness i need. Is that basically the same?

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I'm assuming you are going through AKS? Some versions are PM, like z-wear, and some are cast. Cru wear has made both as cast and as PM, an I haven't heard back from Chuck yet whether his cru wear is cast or PM. The 0.116 z-wear would be fine for the knife you showed above. Let go of the perceptions regarding thicker blades needed for simpler steels. I would be confident in your knife design in z wear.

PM steels have finer grain and smaller carbides, both advantageous to fine edge stability and toughness. Cast steels might need to have slightly thicker edges, or lower hardness to get that toughness. I've got four thicknesses on he way to test. I'll be posting results here.
 
Willie71 said:
I'm assuming you are going through AKS? Some versions are PM, like z-wear, and some are cast. Cru wear has made both as cast and as PM, an I haven't heard back from Chuck yet whether his cru wear is cast or PM. The 0.116 z-wear would be fine for the knife you showed above. Let go of the perceptions regarding thicker blades needed for simpler steels. I would be confident in your knife design in z wear.

PM steels have finer grain and smaller carbides, both advantageous to fine edge stability and toughness. Cast steels might need to have slightly thicker edges, or lower hardness to get that toughness. I've got four thicknesses on he way to test. I'll be posting results here.
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Awesome thanks. Yea i use AKS mostly.
I just found out his cruwear is cast at the moment that should work fine. I will order the .116 zwear as well to test the toughness and edge holding.


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Thanks. good to know cruwear carries by AKS is cast/ingot. For a while, I was looking for a more wear+corrosion resistant version of M2 and thought Crucible switched cruwear to PM years ago. I will buy 1 or 2 sticks with my next order.

O1 vs xwear batoning: IME, xwear(7.5%Cr) exceeded elasticity limit earlier/sooner than O1(0.5%Cr). Similarly apply to plasticity range due to differences in total alloying% and carbide volume. Of course ht matter a lot(grain & carbide size, martensite type, tempering, ...) when everything else are equal.

ShannonSteelLabs said:
Awesome thanks. Yea i use AKS mostly.
I just found out his cruwear is cast at the moment that should work fine. I will order the .116 zwear as well to test the toughness and edge holding.


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bluntcut said:
Thanks. good to know cruwear carries by AKS is cast/ingot. For a while, I was looking for a more wear+corrosion resistant version of M2 and thought Crucible switched cruwear to PM years ago. I will buy 1 or 2 sticks with my next order.

O1 vs xwear batoning: IME, xwear(7.5%Cr) exceeded elasticity limit earlier/sooner than O1(0.5%Cr). Similarly apply to plasticity range due to differences in total alloying% and carbide volume. Of course ht matter a lot(grain & carbide size, martensite type, tempering, ...) when everything else are equal.
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So you are saying that the O1 was tougher in batoning? Sorry i havent gotten that far into metallurgy yet.

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Yes.

First please keep this in mind: as Warren mentioned PM steels usually have finer grain and better element distribution and probably low inclusion as well.

Now, with geometry & ht are equal for O1 and xwear. O1 carbide is much finer than xwear so it subjects to lower transverse stress when bend/flex than xwear - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration. xwear 7.5%Cr lowered interface cohesion so slippage(yield point) happens sooner <= sure, it would be wonderful to have corrosion resistant w/o giving anything eh ;)

Your blade has tall profile (almost FFG leaf), so not much stiffness from lower 1/2" to minimize bending (when twist/steer by baton through hard/knotty/twisty materials). See Nathan Carothers's EDC 1" sabre grind bevel and that would be a good balance for slicing and batoning at 0.13" thick upper part of the blade. O1 & 3V have similar carbide volume but with Peters ht 3V probably has smaller grain size, so my guess - they on par with each other on baton arena.

Another keep in mind - 3-4" blade is quite short, so unless you baton very dense hard twisty wood, bend/flex probably won't be much <= not an issue. If you want to experience 1st hand at moon size chip or ripple, just cross grain baton katalox 1" square. Or use a pile of this kind of experiences to learn the limit of steel+geometry.

ShannonSteelLabs said:
So you are saying that the O1 was tougher in batoning? Sorry i havent gotten that far into metallurgy yet.

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Z-wear also has almost 3% vanadium, which is great for pinning grain boundaries, preventing grain growth, which both help toughness. The way I conceptualize this is anywhere I would use L6, 80crv2, or 5160, I would go with 3v. If I was going to use W2, 52100, or O1, I would go with z-wear. Z-wear is tougher at Rc62 than 3v is at Rc62 or higher. At Rc60 or below, z-wear can never match 3v toughness.

I've done things with z-wear at Rc63/64 that would have damaged a W2 edge of the same thickness at Rc62 without damaging the z-wear.
 
Willie71 said:
Z-wear also has almost 3% vanadium, which is great for pinning grain boundaries, preventing grain growth, which both help toughness. The way I conceptualize this is anywhere I would use L6, 80crv2, or 5160, I would go with 3v. If I was going to use W2, 52100, or O1, I would go with z-wear. Z-wear is tougher at Rc62 than 3v is at Rc62 or higher. At Rc60 or below, z-wear can never match 3v toughness.

I've done things with z-wear at Rc63/64 that would have damaged a W2 edge of the same thickness at Rc62 without damaging the z-wear.
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Nice! Very cool. Thank you for the info!

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There are different ways to conceptualize toughness. Prying is one way, but edge stability is another. I tend to think of an edge's ability to resist rolling or deforming as toughness. In the papers I've read researching higher alloy steels, even A2 can exceed O1 toughness when properly heat treated, at almost any hardness. That's way oversimplified, but I have to say I won't be using simpler steels much anymore unless I'm going for a hamon, or Damascus.
 
Willie71 said:
There are different ways to conceptualize toughness. Prying is one way, but edge stability is another. I tend to think of an edge's ability to resist rolling or deforming as toughness. In the papers I've read researching higher alloy steels, even A2 can exceed O1 toughness when properly heat treated, at almost any hardness. That's way oversimplified, but I have to say I won't be using simpler steels much anymore unless I'm going for a hamon, or Damascus.
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I shoot for edge stability. I grind my knives for cutting performance. Prying is left to pry bars or knives in 3V that are ground for it. Even then i rarely pry with knives. I would rather the edge handle being thin, or handle chopping, etc.

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