ZDP-189 is it any good?

ML: Thank you for taking the time to articulate what I have come to expect from the outdoor use of blades. Your description mirrors my thoughts and everyday experience. I usually cut with a combination of push and slice which differs markedly from "test" cutting by one or the other. I'm interested in theory as are many others, but I have to stop and remember to temper the stats with my own observations just as you have. By the way, good Damascus in the mid 50's hardness range is a wonder to use for real world cutting, performing well beyond anything I expected. Regards, ss.
 
I'd always wondered "why" I liked D2 so much.

This thread has provided some answers, even thought the OP was about ZDP-189.


Thanks guys
 
I got my 3 endura 4 knives in zdp-189. I re profiled one to somewhere between 15-18 degrees. All can say is that this is the best steel I have ever messed with. This stuff gets so sharp it blows my mind. It took about twice as long to re profile, with diamond stones, as re profiling S30V. What really took forever was stropping the blade on a leather strop. It takes about 10 times longer than any other steel. S30V used to be one of my favorite steels but it doesn't hold a candle to zdp-189. This stuff can really spoil a person. The only thing I will say is that this steel is not for the amateur sharpener it takes skill and patience to get the desired results. If you have a hard time sharpening D2 or S30V you will really have a hard time with zdp-189
 
ashtxsniper said:
I got my 3 endura 4 knives in zdp-189. I re profiled one to somewhere between 15-18 degrees. All can say is that this is the best steel I have ever messed with. This stuff gets so sharp it blows my mind. It took about twice as long to re profile, with diamond stones, as re profiling S30V. What really took forever was stropping the blade on a leather strop. It takes about 10 times longer than any other steel. S30V used to be one of my favorite steels but it doesn't hold a candle to zdp-189. This stuff can really spoil a person. The only thing I will say is that this steel is not for the amateur sharpener it takes skill and patience to get the desired results. If you have a hard time sharpening D2 or S30V you will really have a hard time with zdp-189
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What are you using for stropping? I use Diamond powder and did not really see much difference between this steel and any other.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
2 Michael Lovett

Please, do not think I am arguing with just like to understand this for myself, so I like to discuss this.

I think we are in agreement that steel with huge carbides can be sharpened for push cut and that carbides are not falling out of the blade.

You point is that polished edge are not good at field and it better be sharpened with 1200 grit diamond stone. But 1200 grit diamond stone has 9 micron diamonds, which is 5 times smaller then Carbides in D2. To have same size as carbides in D2 it should be 325 Mesh - 45 microns. So this may indicate that it is not carbides make the tooth but tooth from sharpening and it better then 440A just because it holds edge better with carbides then without. What if 440A sharpened same way?

I am not sure that with slicing we have micro-saw effect. It may be more related to momentum and movement, which prevent edge surface to stick to what we are slicing. Because polished edge also slicing better then push cut. And in real life there is no pure push cut it is always slicing as well as real slicing is far from sawing - just one move with not too much amplitue.

Other things against micro-saw effect - real saw and edge quite different things. good saw for wood have tooth slightly bended against each other and in result they take away more then saw thickness. Without this you will not be able to use it at all. Edge has totally different geometry.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
ashtxsniper said:
I got my 3 endura 4 knives in zdp-189. I re profiled one to somewhere between 15-18 degrees. All can say is that this is the best steel I have ever messed with. This stuff gets so sharp it blows my mind. It took about twice as long to re profile, with diamond stones, as re profiling S30V. What really took forever was stropping the blade on a leather strop. It takes about 10 times longer than any other steel. S30V used to be one of my favorite steels but it doesn't hold a candle to zdp-189. This stuff can really spoil a person. The only thing I will say is that this steel is not for the amateur sharpener it takes skill and patience to get the desired results. If you have a hard time sharpening D2 or S30V you will really have a hard time with zdp-189
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You've got me really looking forward to getting my ZDP Endura, should be arriving any day now! Got the fully serrated version.
Already have PE and SE Endura 4's in VG-10, which I think are terrific knives. Especially for the money!!
 
ashtxsniper said:
If you have a hard time sharpening D2 or S30V you will really have a hard time with zdp-189
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This should not be an issue with knives which are properly ground and the steel suits the task. If you are regrinding a lot of material then something is seriously wrong. ZDP-189 is a high hardness, high wear steel. It belongs in fairly thin edges with a angle high enough for stability or simply left rough for aggressive slicing. Mostly what people are seeing with ZDP-189 and sharpness is the benefit of the hardness. Now try something like W1 at 66 HRC and compare for truely outstanding sharpness.

-Cliff
 
ed Hello Vasilli! Yes the micron is smaller. So what you are getting is micro teeth in the blade matrix, and the harder carbides as well. I have not experience the carbide tear out cliff speaks of. There is a huge difference in Lab test and theory and what happens in the real world. We have all seen this in countless products. Knives are no different in this respect. One demo I like to show people at shows is a comparison of the two edges. Most people don't smoke anymore, so this might be repulsive to some. But compared to what flies around the air in a knife shop, tobacco is the least of my worries. I keep a bunch of cigarette butts at the table. Along with differently sharpened blades. We all enjoy the polished edge. It looks good. Push cuts paper, and a few other things well, and shows less drag. Since most knife users and collectors are city dwellers these days, most of the knife use is for relaxation, or entertainment. That and a smooth push cut just looks impressive! To me, and much more so to the un-initiated in the art of cutting. I can take a finely polished blade and impress the customers at any show. But try this one your self. Use a clean un smoked cigarette butt. Put it on a cutting board, or better yet, a rough 2x4. The polished blade will push almost all the way thru it before it will cleave it into. It is almost a pinch. On a rough board, it will not cleanly cut all the way thru. Now try to slice it. Keep using More and more pressure until it cuts. Notice what if anything is left attached at the bottom of the cut. Now do the same test with a blade sharpened on fine diamond. Even a 700 or 800 grit worn stone will be fine. ( I prefer 1200 gr.) Hit it on leather only tow to three times. You will find that it doesn't push cut the material very will at all. Now use the heal to tip slice. But be careful. Because it is going to cut thru quickly, with very little pressure. Very much less than the polished blade. Now look at the end of the cut. What is there. Most times it's a clean cut. with no fibers showing. The polished edge will most times leave a length of paper up to 1/8" long, Sometimes only 1/64. But it is always there. The micro teeth pull the edge into the cut. Now just for grins, place the polished edged knife across the grains of the 2x4 and apply light pressure and try to slice the board straight down. What happens. Very little penetration, and it starts to slide. (this will kill the edge on 440-a-b Aus-4-8 in just a couple of tries.The lower carbide steel can't take the abrasion. But even a high carbide edge can't take it for long if highly polished. Now try the toothier edge of the diamond honed blade. You will find that it doesn't want to slide at all. In fact it wants to bite, and bite hard. The limiting factor isn't any longer the blade wanting to deflect, or slide out of the cut, but rather the limiting factor becomes the strength of the tester. As it will not give up until you do. This is what makes a blade sharpened in such a way much more able to defeat tough materials. Before any of you dismiss this, why not try it for your self. After all, It's just one more excuse to play with our Knives!!! Now with all this said, nothing feels as smooth and relaxing as the cuts made in a leasurley fasion with a polished blade. Polished fine carbide for fun and shaving. Diamond honed larger carbides for work. Works for me! Mike
 
Carbide tear out isn't a lab issue. The tests were designed to actually quantify what was happening in users as it was found that performance didn't correlate to CATRA type testing. Of course high carbides are stable at obtuse angles and if you are using coarse edges then carbide tearouts will enhance aggression anyway. I noted this years ago in comparions on various blades.

-Cliff
 
nozh2002 said:
What are you using for stropping? I use Diamond powder and did not really see much difference between this steel and any other.

Thanks, Vassili.
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I used dmt diamond stones then a unloaded leather strop. The difference was noticeable on th diamond stones but there was a big difference on the unloaded strop. It took me an hour to re profile and hone the knife. I started with a dmt 10" coarse, then a dmt 10" fine, then a a dmt 10" ultra fine, then a dmt 8" ultra ultra fine 8000 grit then finished on a leather strop. As far as not needing to re profile it well thats a matter of opinion. I received 3 of these at the same time and they all could use re profiling. I stropped the knife before re profiling and after and it made a big difference in the level of sharpness after being re profiled.
 
Cliff, I use incredibly fine edges. Think straight razor thin on my personal hunting knives. I come from a family of knife users. Wood carvers, Whittlers, Farmers, and Hunters. I can't stand a thick edge. And I have no chipping problems with ATS-34, 154-CM, or D-2. I don't baby my knives, but I do use them with common sense. Perhaps that is what isn't showing up in the test. Many of my knives are ground so thin that you can deflect the edge with your finger nail, then sharpened at less that 10 deg. You can fillet an arm hair for thanks giving dinner with them. I have just about as much use for a dull knife as a empty 1911. Both are useless. Mike
 
I agree with ML. with my re profiling job my endura is sharper than the strait razer I shave with. I think this says a lot for the knife.
 
If you don't smoke or have any cigarettes. A rolled up piece of paper towel tightly twisted will act very simular to the cig butt. I'm also not convinced of the carbide tear out theory. Are the carbides just free floating in the matrix or are they bonded to it? Hard to think they can be pulled out very easily or just fall out. What ever they are I've been able to get a D2 knife more polished than I really like my edges, at an angle just under 10 degrees per side.
 
Thanks Michael,

I will try this - need more effort to read it through (can you BTW split your text in few paragraphs - it will be easy to read it this way, plus my English far from perfect).

I like to try my hypothesis - that it is not because of saw like edge but because polishing itself on the leather round up edge and so it is not due to grit but because of after 1200 diamond benchstone (finest grit possible for diamond benchstones) we have to switch to the leather which soft and so with polishing edge sides also round up edge itself.

And if we have 3000 diamond benchstone with hard steel or nickel surface instead of 3000 diamond powder on relatively soft leather is will be better then 1200 diamond stone.

I quite smoking 14 years ago - I'll try twisted paper, I guess.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
ashtxsniper said:
I used dmt diamond stones then a unloaded leather strop. The difference was noticeable on th diamond stones but there was a big difference on the unloaded strop. It took me an hour to re profile and hone the knife. I started with a dmt 10" coarse, then a dmt 10" fine, then a a dmt 10" ultra fine, then a dmt 8" ultra ultra fine 8000 grit then finished on a leather strop. As far as not needing to re profile it well thats a matter of opinion. I received 3 of these at the same time and they all could use re profiling. I stropped the knife before re profiling and after and it made a big difference in the level of sharpness after being re profiled.
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OK, it was unloaded leather this is why.

What is 8000 grit ultra fine? I have extra Fine 11" from DMT but it is 1200grit 9 microns. 8000 grits is 3 microns as I understand and edge should looks like a mirror after it.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Thanks Michael,

I will try this - need more effort to read it through (can you BTW split your text in few paragraphs - it will be easy to read it this way, plus my English far from perfect).

I like to try my hypothesis - that it is not because of saw like edge but because polishing itself on the leather round up edge and so it is not due to grit but because of after 1200 diamond benchstone (finest grit possible for diamond benchstones) we have to switch to the leather which soft and so with polishing edge sides also round up edge itself.

And if we have 3000 diamond benchstone with hard steel or nickel surface instead of 3000 diamond powder on relatively soft leather is will be better then 1200 diamond stone.

I quite smoking 14 years ago - I'll try twisted paper, I guess.

Thanks, Vassili.
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There is a finer diamond benchstone. I have one and it works awesome. 3 micron 8000 mesh. http://www.dmtsharp.com/press/d8ee.htm
 
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