ZDP-189, the new super steel?

I hope someone is able to buy Crucible. Now that OSHA has slapped them with a $249,000 fine over 71 violations I'm not sure if that will hurt the sale or not??? Can't help since I've read the buyer will have to pay the fine and repairs.
 
Ken44 said:
I hope someone is able to buy Crucible. Now that OSHA has slapped them with a $249,000 fine over 71 violations I'm not sure if that will hurt the sale or not??? Can't help since I've read the buyer will have to pay the fine and repairs.
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When was this?? :eek: :confused:
 
Hi Vassili,

I think S90V is comparable. At least in our testing. A little different in some of it's charactaristics, but equal in abrasion resistance, S90V is probably better in toughness and equal in corrosion resistance.

Both ZDP & S90V are exotic steels.

They are difficult to work with, hard on wheels, tight tolerances to heat treat, expensive to purchase and process, Harder to sharpen, etc.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
They are difficult to work with, hard on wheels, tight tolerances to heat treat, expensive to purchase and process, Harder to sharpen, etc.

sal
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Yes they are both premium steel, I agree. But not hard to sharpen, we discussed it already many times - better steel - less burr - more easy to sharpen.

CPM S90V is not as good and CPM S110V takes 12th place in my testing, way behind ZDP189 and many others. Crucible throw more and more V, Nb, Co carbides, but can not match ZDP-189 yet. May be it is Zr trace in there?

But so far they are behind - CPM S90V can not get same hardness and relay only on high hard carbides volumes - kind of sandpaper steel, but not like ZDP189.

Yes I asked Crusible - replay was (here actually) - "You just wait..." And I am waiting for two year if I am not mistaken... They produce CPM 154, CPM S110V but nothing like ZDP-189...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Yes they are both premium steel, I agree. But not hard to sharpen, we discussed it already many times - better steel - less burr - more easy to sharpen.

When you're causing more wear that's harder to sharpen. Less burr does not mean harder to sharpen.

CPM S90V is not as good and CPM S110V takes 12th place in my testing, way behind ZDP189 and many others. Crucible throw more and more V, Nb, Co carbides, but can not match ZDP-189 yet. May be it is Zr trace in there?

Perhaps the strength of S90V/S110V doesn't come in cutting thread? I'm not surprised that a steel with a finer edge did better in your testing. Why not try something hardened up to 68-70? Your testing seems to favor harder steels, not properties of wear resistance.

But so far they are behind - CPM S90V can not get same hardness and relay only on high hard carbides volumes - kind of sandpaper steel, but not like ZDP189.

I thought S90V was rumored around 61-62. I could be wrong, I never really looked into it.

Yes I asked Crusible - replay was (here actually) - "You just wait..." And I am waiting for two year if I am not mistaken... They produce CPM 154, CPM S110V but nothing like ZDP-189...

Thanks, Vassili.
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Bold portions please.
 
Josh K said:
Bold portions please.
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I am not sure what really to answer... You seems to have everything wrong. More wear resistance does not mean harder to sharpen if you use diamond sharpening not like wood bricks or whatever. For diamonds - which is hardest material so far known to humanity, there is no difference is it CPM S90V or 420HC - they cut through anyway. I am not sure whay you are talking about cutting thread - on my test I cut manila rope not thread - you should learn bit more first to know what are you talking about. As well as hardness ZDP189 recommended by manufacturer hardmess is 67HRC and best for edge - 65 HRC which is bit different from 61HRC and even 62HRC, so Crucible can not match Hitachi hardness yet.

So you better do some research first...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
I am not sure what really to answer... You seems to have everything wrong. More wear resistance does not mean harder to sharpen if you use diamond sharpening not like wood bricks or whatever. For diamonds - which is hardest material so far known to humanity, there is no difference is it CPM S90V or 420HC - they cut through anyway. I am not sure whay you are talking about cutting thread - on my test I cut manila rope not thread - you should learn bit more first to know what are you talking about. As well as hardness ZDP189 recommended by manufacturer hardmess is 67HRC and best for edge - 65 HRC which is bit different from 61HRC and even 62HRC, so Crucible can not match Hitachi hardness yet.

So you better do some research first...

Thanks, Vassili.
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No, there is still less wear, thus harder to sharpen. It cuts, but it doesn't make it softer. Grab a piece of untreated 1095 and some 65 rc M4 and tell me which is harder to sharpen with a diamond stones.

The last I saw you were using a scale and cutting thread on it. Perhaps you could point me to your most recent tests? Have you taken edge geometry into consideration? Angle? Initial sharpness? Type of edge (I seem to recall you jumping from XC to F or something like that) you obtain?

When you start publishing your results as "scientific" and start ranking steels you'd better have some results and provable, repeatable, methods to back up the talk.
 
Josh K said:
No, there is still less wear, thus harder to sharpen. It cuts, but it doesn't make it softer. Grab a piece of untreated 1095 and some 65 rc M4 and tell me which is harder to sharpen with a diamond stones.

The last I saw you were using a scale and cutting thread on it. Perhaps you could point me to your most recent tests? Have you taken edge geometry into consideration? Angle? Initial sharpness? Type of edge (I seem to recall you jumping from XC to F or something like that) you obtain?

When you start publishing your results as "scientific" and start ranking steels you'd better have some results and provable, repeatable, methods to back up the talk.
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Well you need to learn first what are you talking about.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Grinding wear resistant steels is harder on equipment. Knives are not ground on diamond sharpening stones. :rolleyes:

If they were, it would take forever.
 
nozh2002 said:
I am not sure what really to answer... You seems to have everything wrong. More wear resistance does not mean harder to sharpen if you use diamond sharpening not like wood bricks or whatever. For diamonds - which is hardest material so far known to humanity, there is no difference is it CPM S90V or 420HC - they cut through anyway. I am not sure whay you are talking about cutting thread - on my test I cut manila rope not thread - you should learn bit more first to know what are you talking about. As well as hardness ZDP189 recommended by manufacturer hardmess is 67HRC and best for edge - 65 HRC which is bit different from 61HRC and even 62HRC, so Crucible can not match Hitachi hardness yet.

So you better do some research first...

Thanks, Vassili.
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sure, diamonds are harder than s90v and zdp-189 and 420hc.

but there is no way you can convince me that the diamonds will remove metal as just as quickly on a harder material as they will on a softer material. the diamonds will remove metal more rapidly from a 420hc blade than from an s90v blade.

if i take a steel blade, and three softer materials, but each of different hardness, the softest will be easier to cut. correct?

steel will cut through a stick of butter like, well, butter.

steel will require more force to cut through cardboard than butter.

and steel will require yet more force to cut through wood than cardboard.
 
nozh2002 said:
More wear resistance does not mean harder to sharpen if you use diamond sharpening not like wood bricks or whatever. For diamonds - which is hardest material so far known to humanity, there is no difference is it CPM S90V or 420HC - they cut through anyway.
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So you are suggesting that, as long as the abrasive is harder than the steel, the hardness or wear resistance of the steel has nothing to do with how much work and/or equipment is required to grind it?
 
I think an issue here may be the definition of what is "easier to sharpen".

M2 is apparently more wear resistant than 440a, yet I find M2 easier to sharpen. "Easier" is not based upon the time involved, "easier" is based upon whether I have to perform any finessing, such as taking extra steps to remove stubborn burrs.

M2 is "easier" to sharpen because it takes a crisp edge with ease, not because it takes less time in and of itself during sharpening at each grit. Also, once the bevels are made, little touch-up gets the edge back.

I dislike "stringy" steels that get big, clingy burrs and find they take longer to sharpen and take more finesse to get a decent edge. These steels may be softer and/or less wear resistant, but they are harder to sharpen.
 
orthogonal1 said:
I think an issue here may be the definition of what is "easier to sharpen".

M2 is apparently more wear resistant than 440a, yet I find M2 easier to sharpen. "Easier" is not based upon the time involved, "easier" is based upon whether I have to perform any finessing, such as taking extra steps to remove stubborn burrs.

M2 is "easier" to sharpen because it takes a crisp edge with ease, not because it takes less time in and of itself during sharpening at each grit. Also, once the bevels are made, little touch-up gets the edge back.

I dislike "stringy" steels that get big, clingy burrs and find they take longer to sharpen and take more finesse to get a decent edge. These steels may be softer and/or less wear resistant, but they are harder to sharpen.
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They [softer steels] may be "harder" to sharpen, but they aren't "harder" on your sharpening equipment. Also putting that initial edge on is harder for the manufacturer because the steel is harder.
 
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Murray Carter started making Japanese kitchen, camping, and neck knives for maybe 10years, using ZDP-189, when he was in Japan, and now still uses it as an option, even tho he has moved to Oregon.
 
Josh K said:
They may be "harder" to sharpen, but they aren't "harder" on your sharpening equipment. Also putting that initial edge on is harder for the manufacturer because the steel is harder.
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I'm not a manufacturer.

Are most users manufacturers?
 
orthogonal1 said:
I'm not a manufacturer.

Are most users manufacturers?
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No, but the initial reply was directed at Sal Glesser (Spyderco President) who said it's harder to machine, process, and sharpen. It is harder to (a) put an edge on, and (b) sharpen for most people. Go get a waterstone and sharpen up some S90V. Let us know how that works for you. Now compare that to a piece of 420JS. Which is harder to remove metal from?

The burr doesn't make it harder, it makes it more annoying to the end user.
 
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