Zero Tolerance 0562CF & 0620CF Pre-orders

[RemyKaze]

Perception is everything:

3.5" XM-18 Flipper/Slicer Grind (Hinderer Version): $600+
3.5" XM-18 Flipper/Slicer Grind (ZT Version): $240

Yep, the ZT version is WAY too expensive, all right.



That certainly doesn't come as any surprise to me. Some folks know a bargain when they see it.

One knife is quite expensive for a tool(ZT). The other is inflated to insane prices by people who are willing to throw money at it. This is not a very good argument by comparison. All I'm saying is that the materials, lock, and style almost swayed me, but I decided they weren't worth the cost. I'm just not materialistic enough to plunk down $240 on a pocket knife. However, I am materialistic enough to pay in the $150 range; go figure.

 

[bld522]

If I were willing to carry a knife that weighed north of 5 ounces, there's no way I would pass on the 0562CF. I said it before and I'll say it again. The 0562CF isn't just the American-Made Knife of the Year of the year. Given the popularity of the XM-18, it's arguably the American-Made Knife of the decade . . . and the decade isn't even over yet. That's how important the 0562CF is in my estimation.

 

[RemyKaze]

If I were willing to carry a knife that weighed north of 5 ounces, there's no way I would pass on the 0562CF. I said it before and I'll say it again. The 0562CF isn't just the American-Made Knife of the Year of the year. Given the popularity of the XM-18, it's arguably the American-Made Knife of the decade . . . and the decade isn't even over yet. That's how important the 0562CF is in my estimation.

It's pretty cool, and in the market, it is a great deal. Just saying that, personally, I never fell into line with the whole buying more and more expensive knives trend that a lot of people adopt on this forum. I looked at it from a logical standpoint and saw that it wasn't worth that cost. I think I would pick one up if and when the price drops way down on a forum resale. If Spyderco can charge what they do for the Gayle Bradley in M4, ZT can knock it down a bit.

 

[Quiet]

I use an ESEE Avispa and a Delica 4. I can definitely say that the PM2 is outperformed by both. I love the knife, will never sell mine, but it falls into the "light pocket tank" category. Carry an Avispa and you will see. Destroys anything else in that size in terms of cutting ability. Anything over 3mm thick in a folder is overkill. That is the point at which one should switch to a fixed blade. Again, I believe folders are best used for superior cutting performance since they are already a small tool.

$240 for a production knife is, in fact, a ridiculous price. Unless you can prove that there is not a huge gap between cost of materials/labor and price of finished product? I agree, they are two very cool knives that I was excited about, but they dont bring anything to the table to beat what I have in pocket. The steel is better, sure, and the bearing system is pretty cool. The framelock has been done to death, but I do like it to a point. I like the knives, I'd just rather spend a little more on a custom if I'm going to go over $100-$150 because that is the price point at which performance starts to bring diminishing returns, and we start paying for cool unique locks, super steels, and aesthetics. Just my opinion. If it were up to me, I'd like to try an upgraded Avispa or something with similar performance. Now THAT I would pay $240 for, because I know I'd be getting a serious slicer.

I know most people want pocket tanks or knives that can cut well but stand up to abuse. I guess I just have a different opinion of designs. I've always wanted the razor sharp slicing ability of traditionals in a modern package.

Negative, Ghost Rider. Please do not use "fact" to describe your opinion. That's what premium materials, premium attributes, and the design of a famous knife-maker costs these days. I can also tell you without a doubt that an Avispa won't be outcutting the 0562. I mean, come on now. I have both. I'm about to sell one of 'em on the Exchange (spoiler alert: it's not the 0562!).

 

[bld522]

I think I would pick one up if and when the price drops way down on a forum resale.

I'll race you for it! The 0562CF is the only knife I'd consider buying knowing up front that I wouldn't carry it. That's how important it is IMO. And there's absolutely no way I'd pass on a 3" version of the 0562CF if ZT makes it. At $240 it would be a no-brainer purchase for me.

 

[RemyKaze]

Negative, Ghost Rider. Please do not use "fact" to describe your opinion. That's what premium materials, premium attributes, and the design of a famous knife-maker costs these days. I can also tell you without a doubt that an Avispa won't be outcutting the 0562. I mean, come on now. I have both. I'm about to sell one of 'em on the Exchange (spoiler alert: it's not the 0562!).

Ok, that is a fact, actually. You have only to look at the other various production knives to see that it is the clamor for materials and the name behind it that drives the price up. Can you prove that there is not a huge gap behind the production cost and the cost to us, the customers?

Yeeeeah, I'm sorry. I don't know what you're cutting. I use the Avispa every day and it out cuts anything I've owned in that size range. The blade is thinner, the flat grind works better than a "slicer" grind. I'll reserve my judgement, but I won't pay $210 to have a slightly better cutting knife even if it were true.

 

[Quiet]

Ok, that is a fact, actually. You have only to look at the other various production knives to see that it is the clamor for materials and the name behind it that drives the price up. Can you prove that there is not a huge gap behind the production cost and the cost to us, the customers?

Yeeeeah, I'm sorry. I don't know what you're cutting. I use the Avispa every day and it out cuts anything I've owned in that size range. The blade is thinner, the flat grind works better than a "slicer" grind. I'll reserve my judgement, but I won't pay $210 to have a slightly better cutting knife even if it were true.

Again, no it's not. Sorry. Also, who cares about the difference between production cost and purchase price to the consumer? If that is a concern for you, then you should probably make everything you need in your life from now on. EVERY company charges a price that ensures that they make a profit. The 0562 is actually a hell of a deal for what you get, and that's more of a fact* than your view that it's absurdly overpriced.

And hey, I'm glad the Avispa works for you. That's awesome. But it's not for everyone. It's a small, basic construction knife.

Quick question, can you show a pic with both your Avispa and 0562 for us? I mean, you've used and tested both in extensive cutting tasks, correct? Because that's how you're speaking.


*Yet still my opinion.

 

[RemyKaze]

I'll race you for it! It's the only knife I'd consider buying knowing up front that I wouldn't carry it. That's how important it is. And there's absolutely no way I'd pass on a 3" version of the 0562CF if ZT makes it. At $240 it would be a no-brainer purchase for me.

I thought the same at first. Over time, my opinion changed with my preferences. I still think both the new ZT offerings are attractive. I could just use that $240 on something more important. I'm probably just a penny pincher, but I'd rather save it.

 

[RemyKaze]

Again, no it's not. Sorry. And hey, I'm glad the Avispa works for you. That's awesome. But it's not for everyone.

Quick question, can you show a pic with both your Avispa and 0562 for us? I mean, you've used and tested both in extensive cutting tasks, correct? Because that's how you're speaking.

Can you do the same? I mean, I've proven that my logic isn't impaired by spending $240 on a cutting tool when I already have so many. Show me your logic. Don't be snarky just because I don't want to blow as much money on man toys as you.

Let's see your side by side tests?

Also, you refusing to see something as a fact and offering up no hard evidence to disprove it, doesn't make it less of one. In the knife market, I would agree that $240 for this knife is not too bad at all. In the real world, it is not a good price for such an object.

 

[Scurvy092]

It's pretty cool, and in the market, it is a great deal. Just saying that, personally, I never fell into line with the whole buying more and more expensive knives trend that a lot of people adopt on this forum. I looked at it from a logical standpoint and saw that it wasn't worth that cost. I think I would pick one up if and when the price drops way down on a forum resale. If Spyderco can charge what they do for the Gayle Bradley in M4, ZT can knock it down a bit.

So titanium frame lock vs steel liner lock, bearing pivot vs washers, real cf vs 'cf laminate' and usa made vs Taiwan made isn't worth 60 bucks?

Those all add up...

 

[bld522]

I thought the same at first. Over time, my opinion changed with my preferences. I still think both the new ZT offerings are attractive. I could just use that $240 on something more important. I'm probably just a penny pincher, but I'd rather save it.

Opportunity cost is always a factor in my decision-making. And that has to do with everything pulling on my discretionary dollars. Right now I have my sights set on products that don't contain sharp edges. So unless everything about a particular knife works for me, odds are I'll pass on it. The 0562CF weighs too much for me to carry. And that's the ONLY reason I'm passing on it, at least for the moment.

 

[Quiet]

Can you do the same? I mean, I've proven that my logic isn't impaired by spending $240 on a cutting tool when I already have so many. Show me your logic. Don't be snarky just because I don't want to blow as much money on man toys as you.

Let's see your side by side tests?

Yes, I can. I'll post one up when I get home. I actually have both knives, so right away pretty much any of my conclusions are going to be more factual than your guesstimations that your Avispa will outperform the slicer grind of the 0562. :thumbup:

I'll tell you what, I'll not be snarky, if you stop attempting to pass your skinflintedness off as fact by claiming that a knife costs too much (because you don't want to pay what they're worth). Good deal?

 

[RemyKaze]

So titanium frame lock vs steel liner lock, bearing pivot vs washers, real cf vs 'cf laminate' and usa made vs Taiwan made isn't worth 60 bucks?

Those all add up...

My bad, I didn't pay that for mine. I probably would not buy another of those new either, haha.

 

[Quiet]

By the way, the 0562 (again, spoiler alert!) came MUCH sharper right out of the box than my Avispa did. :thumbup:

 

[Pittknife]

Ok, that is a fact, actually. You have only to look at the other various production knives to see that it is the clamor for materials and the name behind it that drives the price up. Can you prove that there is not a huge gap behind the production cost and the cost to us, the customers?

Yeeeeah, I'm sorry. I don't know what you're cutting. I use the Avispa every day and it out cuts anything I've owned in that size range. The blade is thinner, the flat grind works better than a "slicer" grind. I'll reserve my judgement, but I won't pay $210 to have a slightly better cutting knife even if it were true.

I work directly with factories overseas & domestic and there is a big difference in cost depending on quality. The 0562cf blade finish alone increases prices zt has to pay. Steel prices are going up, especially with demand, not just from the knife world. If you want tighter tolerance and less variance the cost increase is not linear, it can be exponential. This is a broad example, getting a cast metal part that has a tolerance of +/- 1mm might cost you $5/pcs, getting something to +/-.25mm might cost you $25/pcs.

People confuse cost of raw goods with cost of engineering (NRE). To achieve tighter tolerance, you have to use better machines, have better tooling & increase quality processes. Tooling costs are very high on moderately toleranced parts, if you want tighter tolerances you might have to pay for a better tool designer, better tooling material (ss, copper, etc vs aluminum or quick tools). For comparison, if I wanted to do plastic injection molding and wanted only a few hundred pieces I would choose a quick aluminum tool that only last a few thousand shots @~few thousand dollars, a s.s. tool would be tens of thousands.

So, its not just cost of raw material, its the increase in engineering, processes, tools & labor that more than justify the price ZT has put into a knife. Even consistent grinding and heat treat drastically increases cost. As tolerances tighten your scrap & reject parts go up, the factory does not eat these cost, they roll it into the ppc.

Now, if you feel as though you don't care about fit and finish and only care about the blade, that is another thing. From a collector and engineering side ZT's prices are more than justified. That's why handmade perfectly fitted customs cost so much. Anyone that wants to compare a CRKT flipper to my RJ Martin Q36 or even my ZT 0562cf is more than welcomed to their opinion, mine is that there is no comparison.

*also the 0562 is sharp as hell. I am very careful closing it as I like my thumb. Its as sharp as any knife I have.

 

[RemyKaze]

Yes, I can. I'll post one up when I get home. I actually have both knives, so right away pretty much any of my conclusions are going to be more factual than your guesstimations that your Avispa will outperform the slicer grind of the 0562. :thumbup:

I'll tell you what, I'll not be snarky, if you stop attempting to pass your skinflintedness off as fact by claiming that a knife costs too much (because you don't want to pay what they're worth). Good deal?

I never tried to do that. The knife doesn't cost too much for you. It doesn't cost too much for me either, which is why I had planned to order it and had my pre order in. I truly believe the materials and design do not warrant the price tag, which is why I passed on it. For now at least. We all inflate the market, and then tell ourselves it is worth the price, as the price goes up and up.

I don't want to argue with anyone. I was stating my opinion. That's what it has been, the whole time, and it is totally valid, as yours is. Neither can be wholly grounded in fact based on differing perspectives.

 

[RemyKaze]

I work directly with factories overseas & domestic and there is a big difference in cost depending on quality. The 0562cf blade finish alone increases prices zt has to pay. Steel prices are going up, especially with demand, not just from the knife world. If you want tighter tolerance and less variance the cost increase is not linear, it can be exponential. This is a broad example, getting a cast metal part that has a tolerance of +/- 1mm might cost you $5/pcs, getting something to +/-.25mm might cost you $25/pcs.

People confuse cost of raw goods with cost of engineering (NRE). To achieve tighter tolerance, you have to use better machines, have better tooling & increase quality processes. Tooling costs are very high on moderately toleranced parts, if you want tighter tolerances you might have to pay for a better tool designer, better tooling material (ss, copper, etc vs aluminum or quick tools). For comparison, if I wanted to do plastic injection molding and wanted only a few hundred pieces I would choose a quick aluminum tool that only last a few thousand shots ~few thousand, a s.s. tool would be tens of thousands.

So, its not just cost of raw material, its the increase in engineering, processes, tools & labor that more than justify the price ZT has put into a knife. Even consistent grinding and heat treat drastically reduces cost. As tolerances tighten your scrap & reject parts go up, the factory does not eat these cost, they roll it into the ppc.

Now, if you feel as though you don't care about fit and finish and only care about the blade, that is another thing. From a collector and engineering side ZT's prices are more than justified. That's why handmade perfectly fitted customs cost so much. Anyone that wants to compare a CRKT flipper to my RJ Martin Q36 or even my ZT 0562cf is more than welcomed to their opinion, mine is that there is no comparison.

I like this answer. Good to know. From my perspective, I'd rather get a custom and keep my <$150 knives. But, I can understand why others would buy the ZT.

 

[bld522]

I work directly with factories overseas & domestic and there is a big difference in cost depending on quality. The 0562cf blade finish alone increases prices zt has to pay. Steel prices are going up, especially with demand, not just from the knife world. If you want tighter tolerance and less variance the cost increase is not linear, it can be exponential. This is a broad example, getting a cast metal part that has a tolerance of +/- 1mm might cost you $5/pcs, getting something to +/-.25mm might cost you $25/pcs.

People confuse cost of raw goods with cost of engineering (NRE). To achieve tighter tolerance, you have to use better machines, have better tooling & increase quality processes. Tooling costs are very high on moderately toleranced parts, if you want tighter tolerances you might have to pay for a better tool designer, better tooling material (ss, copper, etc vs aluminum or quick tools). For comparison, if I wanted to do plastic injection molding and wanted only a few hundred pieces I would choose a quick aluminum tool that only last a few thousand shots ~few thousand, a s.s. tool would be tens of thousands.

So, its not just cost of raw material, its the increase in engineering, processes, tools & labor that more than justify the price ZT has put into a knife. Even consistent grinding and heat treat drastically reduces cost. As tolerances tighten your scrap & reject parts go up, the factory does not eat these cost, they roll it into the ppc.

Now, if you feel as though you don't care about fit and finish and only care about the blade, that is another thing. From a collector and engineering side ZT's prices are more than justified. That's why handmade perfectly fitted customs cost so much. Anyone that wants to compare a CRKT flipper to my RJ Martin Q36 or even my ZT 0562cf is more than welcomed to their opinion, mine is that there is no comparison.

*also the 0562 is sharp as hell. I am very careful closing it as I like my thumb. Its as sharp as any knife I have.

Right. Now throw in the fact that the 0562CF achieves tolerances and build qualities that compare favorably with original XM-18s costing two to three times as much as it does and applying the word "bargain" to its price point does not seem to be at all out-of-line.

 

[Quiet]

I never tried to do that. The knife doesn't cost too much for you. It doesn't cost too much for me either, which is why I had planned to order it and had my pre order in. I truly believe the materials and design do not warrant the price tag, which is why I passed on it. For now at least. We all inflate the market, and then tell ourselves it is worth the price, as the price goes up and up.

I don't want to argue with anyone. I was stating my opinion. That's what it has been, the whole time, and it is totally valid, as yours is. Neither can be wholly grounded in fact based on differing perspectives.

If that is your belief, no one here has any real issue with that, least of all me. However, now you are saying "I was stating my opinion", when before you stated "$240 for a production knife is, in fact, a ridiculous price." and when called on it, replied "Ok, that is a fact, actually." So, thank you for clearing it up. Ultimately, the only fact of the thing is that knife companies are free to charge any price they want and the market will dictate what a fair price is. It's clear that the prices (they vary) set on the 0562 and 0562CF are in line with what the market thinks is fair because they are scarcer than scientists at a Scientology convention right now.

That to me, says it's a good deal. M390, Hinderer styling, a beautiful slicer grind blade, gorgeous carbon fiber scale, titanium lockside, caged bearing flipper, this knife is all marks in the Plus column for me, with none in the negatives.*



*That's bld522's cue to mention the weight! LOL

 

[bld522]

M390, Hinderer styling, a beautiful slicer grind blade, gorgeous carbon fiber scale, titanium lockside, caged bearing flipper, this knife is all marks in the Plus column for me, with none in the negatives.*



*That's bld522's cue to mention the weight! LOL

Ahhh. You know me too well.