Zero Tolerance could push their way back to the forefront of premium production knives. Why don’t they do it?

I was suprised by the discontinuation of the 0630. It’s such a great design and I like frame locks. Hard to believe sales were poor for that model.
 
tony281sc2 said:
I love the whack off tests. Very useful real-world info, unless you don’t use your knife as a hammer 🙄…. If you’re holding the knife with your hand like most folks do, (under that enormous flipper tab), then it won’t fail, but that’s besides the point I guess….
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It's my fingers I worry about, not yours. Do you regenerate lost fingers the same way a lizard regenerates a lost tail? I don't.

I felt like whack testing a $50.00 Ganzo, and it passed!
 
Because their genius engineers did “improvements” when they blatantly copy western designs…
 
helobite said:
It's my fingers I worry about, not yours. Do you regenerate lost fingers the same way a lizard regenerates a lost tail? I don't.

I felt like whack testing a $50.00 Ganzo, and it passed!
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What scenario is a spine whack test supposed to simulate?
 
tony281sc2 said:
You’re joking with this right? I have dozens of ZTs, most are models made in the last 5-6 years. I had to send 1, yes one, back because of a rust spot on the pivot that probably happened during shipping/storage.
Compared to knives that are Twice as expensive (looking at you Hinderer) the fit and finish is outstanding, and more importantly, consistent.
Oh yeah, and they come sharp :-D
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I am not joking. I never said ZT fit and finish is bad, I said it no longer stands out in the industry. Important difference.

Handle a WE, Reate or Tactile (or dozens of other brands) and the ZT is definitely one or two tiers below them. ZT has not improved while it has been lapped by competition. Excellent knives are everywhere, while ZT are now only “good”. If you consider ZT “outstanding” in the knife world today, you might need to check out some new knives.

I’m also going to call out your claim against Hinderers. My Tri-Way XM is better in every way than my 0550, 0566, 0562 and 0561. My 0392s are close to the new XM in quality.
 
Hackenslash said:
I am not joking. I never said ZT fit and finish is bad, I said it no longer stands out in the industry. Important difference.

Handle a WE, Reate or Tactile (or dozens of other brands) and the ZT is definitely one or two tiers below them. ZT has not improved while it has been lapped by competition. Excellent knives are everywhere, while ZT are now only “good”. If you consider ZT “outstanding” in the knife world today, you might need to check out some new knives.

I’m also going to call out your claim against Hinderers. My Tri-Way XM is better in every way than my 0550, 0566, 0562 and 0561. My 0392s are close to the new XM in quality.
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Wrong. I did own a WE, a Practic. Nice little knife, but nothing about it was better than a ZT, except maybe straight up cutting performance compared to some of ZTs thick overbuilt knives… But if that’s all you’re after you could buy an S110V PM2 and call it a day.
As far as Hinderers vs ZTs, I agree Hinderer owns them in almost every category, except price and factory sharpening. I’ve heard plenty of stories of people getting dull Hinderers. Idk about that, all my Eklipses came sharp, but the actual bevels are not always even or consistent. My 0393GL ,which i bought this year, has just as good fit and finish as the actual Eklipse.
Not claiming one is better than the other, both companies have their place in the market.
that being said, i actually do have my eye on a new WE, the Evoke. It Looks great, like a Sebenza and a 0640 had a baby….I probly won’t buy it, but it is tempting me, and if I hadn’t just bought a knife I’d pre-order one
 
I have really enjoyed my 350, 452, and 462's. I love their collaborations. I'd love to see them collab with Hawk and make a zt otf! I do agree that the overbuilt tactical is what got me into zt though, and I'm always good with more tactical tanks.
 
helobite said:
I spent a big chunk of change for this ZT

3VIOUi1.jpg



with the blade open and the locking mechanism latched, it takes a small tap to the back of the blade to cause the lock to fail, resulting in the blade unlocking and rotating. Best way to test this is by holding the handle sides between the thumb and forefinger, that way I don't run the risk of being cut when the blade breaks loose.

I consider that a fail, and I am not going to spend $300 for a more expensive fail.
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Same with mine, a very light tap on the spine made the lock slip off so easy.
 
tony281sc2 said:
I love the whack off tests. Very useful real-world info, unless you don’t use your knife as a hammer 🙄…. If you’re holding the knife with your hand like most folks do, (under that enormous flipper tab), then it won’t fail, but that’s besides the point I guess….
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Yeah and yet ZT is the only brand I own that will fail so easy. Not even cheap knives I own will come out of lockup with such a light tap.
 
American made does not always equal "better" made. In fact, it's often not the case. But a premium price is still put on it. Not just in the knife industry.

In the last 7 years, only 2 ZT'S have appealed to me enough that I bought them. Front flippers and a collab with Brian Tighe would make my day.

I get the feeling a lot of changes are in the works over at KAI. They definitely seem to be restructuring the Kershaw brand, and I'm assuming ZT is next. Since Kershaw has dropped most of their US made KVT models, I'm wondering if they will "reappear" in some form as lower priced ZT.
 
tony281sc2 said:
Wrong. I did own a WE, a Practic. Nice little knife, but nothing about it was better than a ZT, except maybe straight up cutting performance compared to some of ZTs thick overbuilt knives… But if that’s all you’re after you could buy an S110V PM2 and call it a day.
As far as Hinderers vs ZTs, I agree Hinderer owns them in almost every category, except price and factory sharpening. I’ve heard plenty of stories of people getting dull Hinderers. Idk about that, all my Eklipses came sharp, but the actual bevels are not always even or consistent. My 0393GL ,which i bought this year, has just as good fit and finish as the actual Eklipse.
Not claiming one is better than the other, both companies have their place in the market.
that being said, i actually do have my eye on a new WE, the Evoke. It Looks great, like a Sebenza and a 0640 had a baby….I probly won’t buy it, but it is tempting me, and if I hadn’t just bought a knife I’d pre-order one
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The Practic is a $140 budget WE, probably would’ve been a CIVIVI if released today. If that’s your point of reference, it’s not a very good one.

I don’t consider out of box sharpness a good measure of overall quality. Most of us feel a need to improve a factory edge anyway.

If you choose to support ZT because POI, I support you. That’s a perfectly valid reason to prefer a brand. That preference , however, can’t be supported by objective quality and value.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Only time will tell who has the correct viewpoint. Either ZT will remain at/near the top of the production knife world (yours) or if it will continue to slide into irrelevance (mine).

The lack of any truly new designs doesn’t look good for your opinion, but maybe they’re poised to wow us all.

Edit: I had to go back and look, but the last true, new model release by ZT was the 0762 from late April of 2021? Everything in the year and a half since then has been a rehash. Yeah, that doesn’t feel relevant.
 
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ZT can make a perfect knife, I've had quite a few over the years and I've kept three of the very best. One is a 0452 rose gold ti and G10, I bought after owning a 0452 cf with mushy lockup. The difference in lockup is apparent as it's solid and strong on the G10 model. A 0600 and a 0562 CF are the other two, all three are flawless with as good as it gets on lockup.
 
Hackenslash said:
I'm not a pigeon on the chessboard. I don't want to come here and crap all over everything and fly away. I think there is a solution to the ZT problem, but its not what anyone is saying. Hear me out. I DO NOT HATE ZT! I probably proudly own more than most people posing in this thread, but these problems are real.
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Wait, what is the ZT problem again? If they are selling well and the company is at manufacturing capacity, what problem does ZT actually have?
 
Like others, I would like to see some new collaborations.

The efflux of designers to Chinese manufacturers over the last few years has saddened me, when theoretically ZT could’ve picked up some of that action. What if there were ZT Peñya’s? It wouldn’t fill the ‘beefy’ motif that some are longing for, but damn, I bet it’d be awesome. ZT Chavez or ZT Carey? Could be interesting.

Hackenslash Hackenslash comment on time to market might be on point here, or perhaps ZT is just oblivious to the opportunity…for whatever reason.

For the record, the super-tank ZT’s aren’t my thing, but I like a lot of their lighter offerings (think Bradly vs Abrams). I’m also one of those folks that will pay a little extra to keep his money out of the pockets of Uncle Xi.
 
craytab said:
Wait, what is the ZT problem again? If they are selling well and the company is at manufacturing capacity, what problem does ZT actually have?
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Hackenslash said:
I love ZT and really am happy to have to knives by them...but I feel that they are doomed. There are multiple problems that I feel that they will never be able to recover from.

1. Time to market: ZT can't keep up with the sheer volume of new designs coming from imported brands. This just ain't China, this includes Taiwan and Italy too. These import brands can design, prototype, tool, create and market a new knife in the time it takes for KAI to change toilet paper in the executive washroom. Entire (import) designs and product lines are offered, sold, taken to limited editions and discontinued in the time it takes for ZT to decide on packaging materials.

2. Creative resources: Our best and most creative designers are collaborating with the Import brands while ZT has no in-house designers making new and innovative content. Want a (production) Kick-Stop? China. Want a (production) Shark Lock: Taiwan. What was the last innovation that ZT brought to the knife world? The Martin Fly-Thru pivot on the 0606? Ken Onion can't save them. Rick Hinderer can't save them. They have no ability to innovate and create. New designers in droves are flocking to import brands because they have to. If they want to see their concepts and designs take life, they have to abide by #1 above. ZT is NOT a destination.

3. Exposure: When's the last time you saw an Instagram Influencer or a YouTube Reviewer crow over a ZT? I hate that environment, but that's what frankly drives knife sales. Until ZT can put a new design in front of reviewers that drives sales, their market share will decline. They can't put a new design in front of influencers; see #1 and #2 above.

4. Same as it ever was, but different...: ZT quality is no longer notable. It's almost sub-standard. They have no manufacturing advantage over any other production company, and it's only going to get worse. As costs of everything spiral out of control, and they WILL continue to, this will hit makers like ZT the hardest. Import brands will have more ways to "adjust" to higher production costs. The disadvantage to making knives in the western world will only get worse. I'm not calling doom and gloom for all makers, some have adjusted, but ZT has shown no signs of working through the challenging economics of our times; see #1, #2 and #3 above.

5. Look at yourselves!: Those of you calling for a "reboot" to make ZT great again, please just stop! The solution for a fading brand is to bring back a design from the past that will have limited appeal for Knife Knuts today? You want that discontinued [insert random old ZT part number here] because you're an old fart! That knife has run it's course and has sold 90% of the units it will ever sell. A sweet new ZT0350 with Adamantium steel won't save the brand, it'll be bought by 5.275 old farts. That's OK, I'm an old fart too so I can call you one but It's not the solution. ZT has existed by (mostly) bringing back LEs of recently or currently produced brands, and they sit in inventory.

I'm not a pigeon on the chessboard. I don't want to come here and crap all over everything and fly away. I think there is a solution to the ZT problem, but its not what anyone is saying. Hear me out. I DO NOT HATE ZT! I probably proudly own more than most people posing in this thread, but these problems are real.

The solution to let ZT survive resides in Kershaw. Kershaw has demonstrated the ability to bring multiple new designs to market under inexpensive manufacturing conditions (albeit, often of marginal quality and materials). ZT needs to look to Kershaw and derive inspiration. ZT might survive if it shifts to making premium versions of successful Kershaw designs. Wade through the dozens of (mostly) crappy Kershaw offerings each year and cherry-pick the winners. Take the designs and tooling that already exist and bring them to production in premium materials with better fit and finish.

Imagine a ZT Bareknuckle in milled Titanium and M4 steel.
Imagine a ZT manual Natrix in premium micarta, PB washers and CN Damascus steel.
Imagine a manual ZT Leek with washers (or bearings; take your pick) and premium materials.
Imagine a ZT[insert good Launch model here] in premium materials.
Imagine a retired design, like the Skyline, brought back in premium materials with washers.

Once a year ZT makes the obligatory FAT-CARBON-FIBER-MAGNUCUT-SUPER-DUPER LE of current or near current production knives while it builds up a cash purse from sale of premium, vetted Kershaw models sold for the $200-$250 price point.

The revenue generated by premium, winning Kershaw designs might help them to buy, finance and bring the next big thing to market with minimized costs. If nothing else, they might stay relevant. Otherwise, ZT will be a footnote in 10 years. Maybe less.*

Anyway, that's my highly opinionated thought. If you've read this far, bless you.

*edit: I take that back. They might already be a footnote.
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I thought I bullet-pointed the "ZT problem" in the balance of the post you quoted. Should I have been more long-winded? My fingers were tired, lol :)

Selling all the capacity you make isn't necessarily a good thing. Scroll down current production ZTs at Knifecenter or BHQ; for the most part they are available. I see LEs (that you used to have to grab from one of a few retailers within minutes of the drop) stay available for weeks...months. Check out the Tiger Stripe 0308 and the red CF 0460. Still available. My wife loves her 0566 and when they were closing out I was able to grab a new/old stock for her for about $115. I'm not sure how well ZTs are actually selling. It seems like if every unit of a certain model sell, it's as the result of close-out discounts.

Contrast that with Protech, TRM or Tactile and ZT doesn't seem to push the market buttons like it used to.
 
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BD_01 said:
Like others, I would like to see some new collaborations.

The efflux of designers to Chinese manufacturers over the last few years has saddened me, when theoretically ZT could’ve picked up some of that action. What if there were ZT Peñya’s? It wouldn’t fill the ‘beefy’ motif that some are longing for, but damn, I bet it’d be awesome. ZT Chavez or ZT Carey? Could be interesting.

Hackenslash Hackenslash comment on time to market might be on point here, or perhaps ZT is just oblivious to the opportunity…for whatever reason.

For the record, the super-tank ZT’s aren’t my thing, but I like a lot of their lighter offerings (think Bradly vs Abrams). I’m also one of those folks that will pay a little extra to keep his money out of the pockets of Uncle Xi.
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jeepin said:
I would kill for a Charles Marlowe collaboration.



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The number of collaborations that are going overseas is sad and frustrating. Even companies like Millet that were very active in bringing USA made designs to market are far less active.

For reasons that I can't understand, I believe that KAI is discontinuing USA made Kershaws and slow-rolling anything from ZT to push production to their Launch line of knives. The automatics must be making money because they keep bringing new models to market while Kershaw and ZT decline.
 
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