ZT Galyean 0610ST Auto

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Tim Galyean said:
Vassili, Call the blade shape whatever you want, but "Tanto" seems to be the best description. What would you call it?
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As I stated many times before everything about Tanto is fake - pure creativity of some unleashed marketing. It has nothing to do with Japanese tradition, it has nothing to do with greater penetration, and it is not a knife if you translate from Japanese after all.

To me it is pure example of Fake itself. Of course once it was over-promoted and became more real then truth itself many capitalize on this, but it is to me just joining somebody else lie and take advantage of all those poor deceived by someone else crowd.

I just do not like Kershaw to join this... You rather educate customers and copy real Tanto, making tanto like blade etc...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
There seems to be a lot of fakes in this thread...
lol.gif


dowhat-1.gif
 
:D so many funny comments... but I'm keeping low profile:cool: I wasn't aware of the "Tanto lie" however. Regardless, the blade style looks cool

nozh2002 said:
As I stated many times before everything about Tanto is fake - pure creativity of some unleashed marketing. It has nothing to do with Japanese tradition, it has nothing to do with greater penetration, and it is not a knife if you translate from Japanese after all.

To me it is pure example of Fake itself. Of course once it was over-promoted and became more real then truth itself many capitalize on this, but it is to me just joining somebody else lie and take advantage of all those poor deceived by someone else crowd.

I just do not like Kershaw to join this... You rather educate customers and copy real Tanto, making tanto like blade etc...

Thanks, Vassili.
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Has anyone heard of the new "Hara-kiri" model from Kershaw? For once it's a traditional Japanese Tanto OTF with speedsafe, sheath and Kai USA scarf. :D
 
besides aren't all kershaw "tantos" listed as modified tantos? a style that is certainly not unique to kershaw but rather widely used by a variety of manufacturers to express a desire for a tactical application? im not super keen on what those applications might be, but i know i get a lot of use out of my PS "Tanto" blades from kershaw or otherwise. so i guess what im saying is that shape works for folders and since i can't carry a sword and most of the time im slicing and not piercing, i don't need a true tanto.
 
Well who told you that tanto is for piercing on the first place?

I think before giving comments like this you may learn first the matter.

Tanto is Tan - short, To - sword. Same as nihhonto, Nihhon - Japanese, To - sword. Also piercing is not in Japanese tradition - they over-harden their swords to this days and so use them not for fencing in cossack style but to mostly one deadly single strikes. Usually they chop heads on peasants etc.

There were no really real wars in Japan in same scale as it was in Europe (at least from Russian point of view). When fraction of mongolian Habulay hordes land in Japan (most or them drawn because of "holly" wind attacing them in the sea - Kamikadze) they greatly out-numbered by "superior warriors" stays on the beaches for days, resisting pretty easy with their bulat sabers to Japanese brittle katanas (and tantoes).

Also with lack of iron in Japan there were nothing really to penetrate - this is not European knight armor - far from it.

So do some research first. Check this one first:

http://www.swordforum.com/sfu/japanese/americanized.html

The thing close to what presented here as a tanto is actually - Unagisuky or kitchen knife to prepare eel with one single cut. Some of this eel are real beasts:

moray_eel_big.jpg


and you need some kind of zombie slayer to make this out of it:

ino_unagi.jpg


However I am not quite sure that cutting eel is really "tactical application"...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
DAMN! I thought someone had posted a picture of my ex with her green makeup on, with her mouth open and bitchin' someone out! But now that I look at it, I'm sorry I insulted the eel!:eek::D

As far as the tanto edge goes, it sounds like you are bitchin' Kershaw out for having the nerve to produce such a blade shape. At this stage of the game, with the Cold Steel tanto having been around for 25 years or so, I'm surprised Kershaw hasn't done more tanto's. They seem to work for a lot of people and these type of knives must sell well to be as prominent in the market as they are.

In all honesty Vassili, and I DO NOT want this to come off as being a smart aleck remark towards you Vassilli, because it is not, but I don't think people really give a rat's rear end over whether this is an approiate tanto point or not. Again no insult towards you Vassili, as I have read a lot of good post's by you. Just one man's opinion.
 
This is common behavior for certain type of people to turn discussion on the personal level. I am not this kind of the person, if you like discuss me - you are welcome, but do not expect me to read or participate this...

Have your fun...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
kneedeep said:
Guys, I think everyone is being a little rough on topspeclt.

Admittedly he did project his knife legality situation on all of us, but the key points to get out of his posts are that he is excited about the knife, he likes the design, and would like to get one (if there were a legal way to do it).

(This is not to say that every one else's counterpoints weren't excellent.)
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I gotta agree with you kneedeep. All topspec was saying is that if the knife wasn't automatic then he could have one. I thought the same thing. Kershaw doesn't mind when people have negative comments about them, as long as they are proffered in a respectful way, which is what topspec did. He wasn't bashing Kershaw, just lamenting the fact that because it is an automatic, a lot of people (myself included) won't get to own this knife. I think EVERYONE agrees that the knife is awesome and Tim Galyean needs to keep making knives for Kershaw!
 
sheesh, i go to work, come home, sleep, go to a concert without time to check in on you guys, and look at what happens! i feel that i should stay clear of this subject just for the fact i came in late.

oh and SPX, i believe you, but we are now on same page yes? you gotta admit, our friendly dealer is a good guy :p
 
nozh2002 said:
This is common behavior for certain type of people to turn discussion on the personal level. I am not this kind of the person, if you like discuss me - you are welcome, but do not expect me to read or participate this...

Have your fun...

Thanks, Vassili.
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So I guess this was directed at me. I tried to preface my comments with the fact I was not saying them to insult you. I was trying to say that since the tanto, in the American form, has been around for 25+ years that people do not really care all that much about the exact origin of it. That is ALL I was trying to say. Sorry if it offended you as that was not my intent.
 
I understand that the modified tanto blade that most knife manufacturers make is an Americanized interpretation of the Japanese tanto. (A tanto by the way is defined as a short sword less than 1 shaku - approx. 11.9 inches in length).

The key issue brought up by most, and the key element in calling Americanized tantos "fake" is the shape of the point. Most traditional tanto have a curved point. However to call tantos with a straight (triangular) point an American invention is inaccurate.

Without taking the size of the point into account, points of Japanese swords can be classified into two types - Curved-edge points (fukura-tsuku) and Straight-edge points (fukura-kareru).

The straight-edge points are basically identical to Americanized tanto points. The biggest differences being that Americanized tantos rarely have the slight upward curvature typical of most historical tanto and for marketing practicality Americanized tantos are rarely as long as their Japanese counterparts.

In any case, even though they were rare, there were Japanese tantos with with shapes similar to Americanized tantos.

Of course as Vasilli mentioned, most of the marketing re: tantos is a load of baloney.


I can't remember if I mentioned it before, but I love the overall shape of this knife, and would be totally happy to have one with this shape blade (and even the serrations).
Hopefully after the first few runs sell out and it is proven a hot seller, Kershaw will see fit to try a few other blade shapes, then (almost) everyone can be happy.
 
I hate to tell you this guys, but you're all wrong:

Tonto is a fictional character, the Native American assistant of The Lone Ranger, a popular American Western character created by Fran Striker. He has appeared in radio and television series and other presentations of the characters' adventures righting wrongs in 19th century western America.

Tonto made his first appearance on the twelfth episode of the radio show (which aired on station WXYZ on February 25, 1933). Though he became as well-known as his friend, Tonto was originally created just so the Lone Ranger would have someone to talk to. Throughout the radio run (which spanned twenty-one years), with only a few exceptions, Tonto was played by English actor John Todd.

The character was portrayed on television (arguably the most well-remembered version today) by Jay Silverheels. This was by far the highest-rated television program on the ABC network in the early 1950s and its first true "hit".
 
nygiantsfan3342 said:
I gotta agree with you kneedeep. All topspec was saying is that if the knife wasn't automatic then he could have one. I thought the same thing. Kershaw doesn't mind when people have negative comments about them, as long as they are proffered in a respectful way, which is what topspec did. He wasn't bashing Kershaw, just lamenting the fact that because it is an automatic, a lot of people (myself included) won't get to own this knife. I think EVERYONE agrees that the knife is awesome and Tim Galyean needs to keep making knives for Kershaw!
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safe to say that you cant even own one, let alone carry, while a Texas resident? (there was a big article about it not to long ago, i dont remember what it said)

OK, so i finally took the time to read through all of this and I have come to a couple of opinions.

First, topspec, i understand that it sucks to not be able to get the new ZT autos because they are autos. considering where you live, well, that speaks for itself. but to ask why they "have" to be autos, i couldnt agree with mike more. besides, there are other models out there that have somewhat the same lines that would be easier to explain in the UK. naimly the 0200, which was mentioned, and the 0400 because of the blade shape. so long as that torsion bar is gone of course. simple fix.

stating what you did about the new ZT autos shows a bit of ignorance towards the reason they were made, which is for LEOs and military. that simple. the 0200 and the rest of the non-auto line are really for LEO and military, but are not going to be relegated because of the automatic knife laws (though there are loopholes to everything, sadly the UK hates everything with a point to it). the example of New Graham requiring a LEO or military ID sums up my point. not to hard to understand. again you point is valid, but does come off as a touch ignorant.

second, vassili. like cutter said, there have been alot of good and great posts from you in the past, that i too have enjoyed reading. however the remarks about the history of the "tanto" and the Cold Steel comments are just stupid. as others, and i think its mainly cutter, have said, no one cares about the history of it. if they are a Japanese history buff, then sure, they can care. If Kershaw was marketing it as a "true Japanese tanto" then, yes, it could be a problem for some. However, like most people, I am NOT a Japanese history buff (though i do find it interesting history), and thus dont care. Also, Kershaw is not marketing the knife as a "true Japanese tanto", thus why should it matter? I cant see a LEO getting one of these and refusing to use it because it "isnt true to the word 'tanto'". My main concern, along with most users, is "will the knife suit my needs? I dont want to buy it if it isnt going to fit my needs.".Thats what i ask, not "what is the history of this blade shape? is it true to its history? i dont want to buy it if it isnt true to its history!"Do us a favor vassili, and actually answer Tim's question: "what would you call the blade?", only without the history lesson. "fake" does not count btw

vassili, if you dont like what i had to say as my opinion, then PM me and we will talk that way. the above is exactly that, an OPINION.

back to your reguarly scheduled thread
 
Well, here I thought we were seeing a new knife introduced.
Turns out, it is just a fake, something that Kershaw over-promoted
just get more money out of customers. I knew something was up.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Vassili, it turns personal when you say everyone here is stupid
and we don't know what we're talking about. At least that is what you're implying.
You always say don't make it personal, but that is where it always ends up.

If you don't like the fact that this style blade is being used, then don't buy it.
You're negativity with every thread and then the turn of the tables where
it's someone else's fault makes me sick.

The modified tanto which this blade is utilizing is used by many companies.
A lot of consumers like this style. We aren't fighting wars in Japan. It is the
Americanized Tanto. No one said it was Japanese style. It is a WORD.

I'm done.

mike
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade#Patterns_of_knife_blades

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(8) A Westernised tanto style knife has a somewhat chisel-like point that is thick towards the point (being close to the spine) and is thus quite strong. It is superficially similar to the points on most Japanese long and short swords (katana and wakizashi). The traditional Japanese tantō knife uses the blade geometry of (1). The Westernised tanto is often straight but may also be gently curved. The point is actually a second edge on the end of the blade, with a total edge angle of 60 – 80 degrees. Some varieties may have the back edge angled to the point slightly and sharpened for a short distance from the point.
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Sharp-eyed readers will note that the Japanese blade is a tantō, as opposed to the western tanto.

That said, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple, no? :rolleyes:
 
2brothers said:
...Vassili, it turns personal when you say everyone here is stupid
and we don't know what we're talking about. At least that is what you're implying.
You always say don't make it personal, but that is where it always ends up.

mike
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Well, yes I also notice that some people when you tell them that they do not know something translate this to more simple "You are stupid". I see this many times in computer bussiness - some people so afraid that others will start thinking certain way that start seeing this everywhere. It is very hard to deal with. If somebody will tell me that I do not know something - I am not taking this as "You are stupid", because I know for sure that I don't. In such case I try to learn and usually benefit from new knowledge.

But some people took it offensive implying too much in this. The drop matter right avay - they do not know anything anyway and start discussing my person - thing they are think they are experts in...

Same story all the time. I just try to stay away from them once they exposed...

2 kneedeep

I think that real inspiration for Cold Steel was unagisaky not really old and rare swords. If you see Unagusaky you recognize this right away. Agan many American "tactical" knives were inspired by Japanese kitchen knives - like single beveled knives etc... Probably those "tactical" marketing guys have a "visions" in sushi bars or something.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
2 kneedeep

I think that real inspiration for Cold Steel was unagisaky not really old and rare swords. If you see Unagusaky you recognize this right away. Agan many American "tactical" knives were inspired by Japanese kitchen knives - like single beveled knives etc... Probably those "tactical" marketing guys have a "visions" in sushi bars or something.

Thanks, Vassili.
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I will say that single bevel tactical tantos are more of a bastardized version of a kiridashi or basic utility knife.

I can't speak for the Cold Steel Tantos, but in the case of the ZT 0610ST, the point geometry is very similar to the fukura-kareru I mentioned and is not a single bevel. I guess we'll have to ask Tim what his inspiration for the blade type is.

In any case, all I am trying to say is that there is existing prior art to dispute the claim that straight pointed tantos are an american invention.
 
Arguing from ignorance will always go around in helpless circles.

The Americanized tanto was introduced by the late Bob Lum. Look to his Spyderco folder and fixed blade for his understanding of the blade shape. Cold Steel followed quickly, copying Bob Lum's design, and Ernie Emerson added a chisel grind.

All this talk of kitchen knives and sushi bars is lack of real knowledge rushing to speculation for something negative to say. I submit that Mr. Lum had a comprehensive knowledge of Asian bladecraft to work from.
 
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