ZT LE's to be Consumer Direct only

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bigmark408 said:
LOL, careful your going to look very silly if you get what you ask for :)

Your wrong. :)
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LOL. No way, I saw what I saw... You had them up at $600 each. Even though you deleted your post, Poolhustler's response of "............" Says it all.

You can have your buddies post BS but ArabianKnight didnt even claim it on your sale thread so that doesnt satisfy as proof. Not when I know for a fact that it was $600 each before you deleted it.

Youre a liar. Im done.
 
I don't care what bigmark408 sold the knives for as it nothing to do with this thread. Knock of the BS....no more warnings.
 
Sorry for taking it there Morrow. It got to that because I was curious as to the reasons why he had so many skeptical remarks about ZT's new policy and I realize that he benefited big time from the previous way. That's his business but at least the public here at large knows why he's so vocal about "the poor dealers" and "ZT cashing in, poor us".
 
This change helps correct the fundamental flaw with ZT LE's. This should help combat dealer monopolies, favoritism, and drive down secondary market prices. ZT has always justified its decision to make low numbers of LEs because it did not earn enough profit off the knives due to more expensive materials. Hopefully, selling LEs at MSRP allows ZT to make a higher profit per knife, produce more knives as a result, and thus gradually drive down absurd secondary-market prices. I'd rather give an extra $100-$200 to the manufacturer than a "collector" who somehow happens to obtain 3-4 of the same LE knife shortly after they are released.
 
I think this issue is quite different from that of Benchmade. While ZT is cashing in on their knives, Benchmade forced the dealers to remove any discounts they were offering to customers. The extra expense is forced profit on the dealers part; while that might sound like a good idea, it has probably cut down on the number of sales of Benchmade knives. They did so to move themselves into a different market position so they could then justify the crazy high prices of their LE knives.

ZT is either cashing in, or they are trying to fix market abuse. I really don't know which one, and sadly Thomas got tired of our BS, so he isn't around to tell us anymore.

Do you guys know if any dealers have taken pre-orders for the 0454 yet? I wonder if ZT is going to have that as their first Direct to Consumer LE knife. It will be exciting to see how it changes things; if it does at all.
 
austonh said:
I think this issue is quite different from that of Benchmade. While ZT is cashing in on their knives, Benchmade forced the dealers to remove any discounts they were offering to customers. The extra expense is forced profit on the dealers part; while that might sound like a good idea, it has probably cut down on the number of sales of Benchmade knives. They did so to move themselves into a different market position so they could then justify the crazy high prices of their LE knives...
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I agree with you. The BM move affected the price-to-consumer on every knife across the board. This move by ZT will only affect their LEs and probably - IMHO - actually provide the collecting consumer some benefit.

Apples/oranges.
 
Thomas isn't here but he is very active on the same thread of the same name topic on another forum. The gist of his responses (very condensed) is that they want everyone to have an equal chance of getting the LE knives. He wants to stop the "bro deals" (his words) where some people end up with multiple LE knives because of their relationships to some dealers (and then flip for huge profit) and he wants to stop dealers doing pre-orders for knives that they are not guaranteed to even get in stock. My impression is that he despises the the flippers like most of us and that has something to do with this too. That is basically the reasoning that I understood.
 
It doesn't matter how ZT conducts their business to me, I have never pre ordered a knife.

I buy from local shops or online.

Benchmade lost dealers and individual customers because of there actions.

I know dealers are not happy with ZTs new policy and just don't understand why they would take this away from there dealers.

If they believe dealers are price gouging then why not just cut off that dealer as mentioned earlier, not all dealers get LE's anyway.

I don't think the monetary difference will be worth the extra work this will be for them.
 
ToddM said:
I see this doing 3 things:

1) A meaningless "punishment" for dealers that were selling way over MSRP (but not really, it's a couple LE sales) Those claiming free market realize that ZT is doing this to hinder dealers and individuals from selling for whatever price the market will bear, which is the EXACT definition of a free market. ZT is trying to create a regulated market, the exact opposite. Which they are free to do, but it's anything but a free market.
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No, you're completely wrong.

Free market capitalism is when production is controlled by private businesses (ie. not government), and prices are controlled by the forces of supply and demand and NOT by government policy/laws. ZT settings their own prices, and controlling their production and supply, is the very essence of free market capitalism. If ZT sets prices too high, or if they don't create enough product, then the market forces (not the government) will influence prices, and supply and demand ... and buyers may purchase other brands, or sell ZT LE knives for $2000 on eBay, or compel ZT to lower prices or increase production. That is all free market capitalism, and is awesome. What you need to worry about is when the government tries to control production, prices, or supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Free-market_economy
 
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ToddM said:
I see this doing 3 things:

1) A meaningless "punishment" for dealers that were selling way over MSRP (but not really, it's a couple LE sales) Those claiming free market realize that ZT is doing this to hinder dealers and individuals from selling for whatever price the market will bear, which is the EXACT definition of a free market. ZT is trying to create a regulated market, the exact opposite. Which they are free to do, but it's anything but a free market.
2) Make it slightly, yes only slightly harder for those guys that buy multiples to flip for profit
3) Make sure no one pays less than MSRP, and greatly increase ZT's own profits per knife.

It will be interesting to see how it works, I don't believe it's going to make it any easier for the average person to get one, probably harder without any pre-orders and only one source, nor do I believe it's going to help secondary market pricing, depending on the amount released it's probably going to make it worse. Customers are now going to be competing with dealers when they hit the web page and my guess is dealers and those "in the know" are somehow going to get a heads up when these things are about to be posted.

The easy answer, is make it a regular production item, respond to demand, that simple step eliminates ALL the problems related to LE's. There's nothing special about the 0392, no laminated blade, no crazy exotic materials they learn in production they can't machine/heat treat, etc. I'd imagine ZT can produce/anodize spacers and pocket clips as well as Hinderer, etc. That fixes the whole issue, it's almost like ZT enjoys the chaos that surrounds their LE knives.
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ZT aren't government. They're a manufacturer. They can sell however they want.
 
Depends on how you look at it, the regulation for a free market does not need to be from the government, any "authority" controlling things other than pure supply/demand can be considered regulation.

In a true free market (people always talk about how great a free market would be when few really want or would like it, and capitalism is not the same as a free market, but are frequently put together) ZT would not control things like how many you bought, and who bought them, or any policies that would curb dealer/secondary market practices. It's pure supply and demand, meaning that if there's 100 of them and I want to buy 100, there can be no regulation of that unless supply does not exist or I can't meet the sellers price. Once you put any rules on transactions, no matter who it's by, you are no longer in a free market.
 
ToddM said:
Depends on how you look at it, the regulation for a free market does not need to be from the government, any "authority" controlling things other than pure supply/demand can be considered regulation.

In a true free market (people always talk about how great a free market would be when few really want or would like it, and capitalism is not the same as a free market, but are frequently put together) ZT would not control things like how many you bought, and who bought them, or any policies that would curb dealer/secondary market practices. It's pure supply and demand, meaning that if there's 100 of them and I want to buy 100, there can be no regulation of that unless supply does not exist or I can't meet the sellers price. Once you put any rules on transactions, no matter who it's by, you are no longer in a free market.
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Wrong. In a 'true free market' as you have defined it, ZT would just sell the LEs at secondary prices direct to consumers.
 
ZT is not doing anything whatsoever to control the knife market. Selling at whatever price they want, to whoever they want, in no way compromises the concept of free market. There are plenty of other knife manufacturers and sellers, and ZT is not doing anything to control or influence the knife market, and they don't have the power to do so.

ZT's decision to sell LEs directly to buyers is 100% consistent with the spirit of "free market". If you, as a buyer, don't like the price, you can buy another brand, from a different seller. If ZT tries to control the supply or the price, there are lots of other brands of knives, and sellers of knives, who ensure that the free market concept is preserved.

Your mistake here is trying to apply the free market principle to a single company. ZT is no way whatsoever has a monopoly on the knife market, and they are not in any way an authority [read: controller of] of the knife market.
 
Scurvy092 said:
Wrong. In a 'true free market' as you have defined it, ZT would just sell the LEs at secondary prices direct to consumers.
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I never specified a price, I simply said in a free market buyers would have to meet the sellers asking price, the seller is free to ask whatever price they want and the buyer is free to accept or refuse. Any pricing policy violates a true free market, as does any restrictions on quantity purchased aside for the limit of supply available.
 
Great thread, it was just a matter of time till it turned into conspiracy theory. ;)

The coolest thing i see coming so far is the 562.

The market is flooded with 500.00 Ti framelocks to choose from. :)
 
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best decision they have made yet. As long as we continue to see regular production in elmax and m390 (example: upcoming 0562 and 0620 both cf and g10), im still a happy camper.

what will be most interesting is how they handle the direct ordering process. That is when we will really start to see how things will unfold. If you don't like it because you lost your ability to snag a LE knife for under MSRP and you can't get a bunch of money on the secondary market.... I don't feel sorry for you.
 
On the plus side, depending on how ZT handles the release of the LE's, this could mean more opportunity for us consumers to obtain LE's at a reasonable price (if MSRP can be construed as reasonable, most do) and not have to go to the secondary markup and get scalper prices. Those that buy a few LE's and resell at insane prices quit your crying.

On the down side, the LE's create a lot of publicity for the brand which is shared by loyal dealers. The LE's are great marketing tools bringing consumers to the dealers doors. Dealers are part of the marketing tool, their "foot traffic" helps spread the word and generates more interest in the brand as a whole. Somehow cutting out the dealer of the LE's seems counter intuitive to the overall marketing the LE's bring to the table.
 
Here's an idea, do a random lottery for them, that would be completely fair, everyone would have plenty of time to put their name in the hat and the same chance/opportunity to get one for MSRP. ZT could also do a better job of ensuring that someone isn't trying to work the system. Everyone that enters the lottery gives credit card info, and anyone that's selected and the payment doesn't go through, looses their slot and it's offered to the next name on the list.

I just don't see this proposed process (and it might change we haven't see how it will really work) actually fixing much. Most people cannot monitor ZT's website 24/7, and if they only release a few at a time with no notice, most people are going to miss out anyway and still be paying secondary market prices. Add to that my guess is now we'll be competing with dealers too which is going to make it even harder. You can bet these are going to go way over $500 on the secondary market, probably pushing $750+ depending on numbers, so dealers are still going to want to get in on that profit margin.

My guess is if ZT only releases a few at a time, even if it's 100+ they are only going to last minutes not hours once word gets out, and we've seen other sites that can't handle that kinda online ordering traffic rush. If ZT releases them during the day, people with day jobs have no shot, at night those that work night shifts are screwed, do a pre-order and anyone that wasn't on their site within 5 minutes of that opening misses out. A random lottery gives almost everyone a fair shot.
 
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