0550 Here we go!

[ohmyheckinslc]

S35VN does under perform compared to S30V. It's just as simple as that. I, and many other people have noticed it in formal testing. They pretty much took away the alloying elements that made S30V a great edge holder, and didn't bump up the hardness. If Kershaw runs it harder than everyone else, then it should be fine. No way of being sure though.

Read this thread, and it will give you a good idea of how S35VN performs.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/904581-3V-vs-S35VN-characteristics

That thread does drag down one's spirits. Hopes are very high, where the 0550 is concerned, and a surprising lack of toughness and edge holding, in a hard use knife like a ZT, would be a real let-down. I'm reminded, though, of the early days of s30v, and the stories of it chipping so easily one had to keep the knife out of the wind for fear of damaging the edge. That said, folks like Paul Bos, and the fellow at Crusader Forge have really mastered getting the most from that steel, and it almost behaves like a totally different steel when given a great HT (Probably true of every steel!). While I find the criticism of S35VN and its apparent failings to be disheartening, I would be very surprised if some of the big names in the knife world, like Strider, CRK, Spyderco and ZT would be risking damage to their excellent reps, by putting out knives which would prove to be such a disappointment... As always, time will tell.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

CRK is promoting the hell out of the steel. I don't think they're too concerned. Fact is, it doesn't matter when most of their customers don't even use the knives.

I sincerely hope S30V isn't phased out altogether.

That thread does drag down one's spirits. Hopes are very high, where the 0550 is concerned, and a surprising lack of toughness and edge holding, in a hard use knife like a ZT, would be a real let-down. I'm reminded, though, of the early days of s30v, and the stories of it chipping so easily one had to keep the knife out of the wind for fear of damaging the edge. That said, folks like Paul Bos, and the fellow at Crusader Forge have really mastered getting the most from that steel, and it almost behaves like a totally different steel when given a great HT (Probably true of every steel!). While I find the criticism of S35VN and its apparent failings to be disheartening, I would be very surprised if some of the big names in the knife world, like Strider, CRK, Spyderco and ZT would be risking damage to their excellent reps, by putting out knives which would prove to be such a disappointment... As always, time will tell.

 

[JTR357]

Will these scales be interchangeable with the 0551 Hinderer scales?
Just curious.It'll be a few months before I can pick one up.

 

[espnazi]

Will these scales be interchangeable with the 0551 Hinderer scales?
Just curious.It'll be a few months before I can pick one up.

According to the Hinderer website they are interchangeable.

 

[Soulrack223]

I got my 0550 in the mail today. Thanks kershaw guy! Its differences are subtle and thoughtful when compared to the 0551 as outlined earlier in this thread. Its fit, finish and lock up are perfect--a significant improvement over the 0551 I had to send back in for the rusty liner issue. I still don't particularly care for the texturing on the scales but that's minor and easily corrected. I'm anxious to try out the S35VN even though it's getting hammered in reviews. It's funny how we (meaning bladeforumites) used to bash S30V but now we've grown to appreciate it (probably due to the mastering of its heat treatment). Hopefully Zero Tolerance has gotten S35VN "right" for the "first time." I gotta say it's going to be hard to out perform Elmax though.

We should do a forum knife based on the 0550.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I got my 0550 in the mail today. Thanks kershaw guy! Its differences are subtle and thoughtful when compared to the 0551 as outlined earlier in this thread. Its fit, finish and lock up are perfect--a significant improvement over the 0551 I had to send back in for the rusty liner issue. I still don't particularly care for the texturing on the scales but that's minor and easily corrected. I'm anxious to try out the S35VN even though it's getting hammered in reviews. It's funny how we (meaning bladeforumites) used to bash S30V but now we've grown to appreciate it (probably due to the mastering of its heat treatment). Hopefully Zero Tolerance has gotten S35VN "right" for the "first time." I gotta say it's going to be hard to out perform Elmax though.

We should do a forum knife based on the 0550.

There is always the chance that Kershaw/ZT got it right. I didn't mean to make you or anyone feel like they are getting a sub par steel. It is just as like that the steel will perform excellently in this knife in particular, since it has a thick blade stock.

 

[presz]

I got my 0550 in the mail today. Thanks kershaw guy! Its differences are subtle and thoughtful when compared to the 0551 as outlined earlier in this thread. Its fit, finish and lock up are perfect--a significant improvement over the 0551 I had to send back in for the rusty liner issue. I still don't particularly care for the texturing on the scales but that's minor and easily corrected. I'm anxious to try out the S35VN even though it's getting hammered in reviews. It's funny how we (meaning bladeforumites) used to bash S30V but now we've grown to appreciate it (probably due to the mastering of its heat treatment). Hopefully Zero Tolerance has gotten S35VN "right" for the "first time." I gotta say it's going to be hard to out perform Elmax though.

We should do a forum knife based on the 0550.

Yes please! Brown G10 frag with Elmax would be nice.

Put me down for 2, 498 more to go.

 

[Thomas W]

There is always the chance that Kershaw/ZT got it right.

As opposed to who's wrong?

I believe it's important that we be careful with blanket statements encapsulating any steel.
There are a lot of instances I hear people don't like a particular steel even though they would be the minority on BF's. Expectations play a huge part with all of this steel evaluation talk. What folks think and expect vs. what should be vs. what is, can get confusing and have mixed results. To try and label a particular grade can be ok, as each steel can have obvious positive and negative characteristics, but we have a tendency to overreact and come to finality conclusions that can be unfair or even inaccurate. Broad stroking steel is never a good idea, as real world experiences can differ wildly.

Some manufacturers offer lots of premium steels for the enthusiasts. This is all done for you. Not every exotic steel is going to be "better", or liked more than a previous grade. Edge retention doesn't have to be a steels end game. When looking up the definition of steel performance, edge retention is not always the right answer. While edge holding seems to be the measuring stick around these parts, other traits can be in many cases, much more important.

I didn't mean to make you or anyone feel like they are getting a sub par steel.

I know you are reporting your experience with S35VN, and it's I feel bad for your results. Let's just remember, we're talking a limited number of blades in question here. There are plenty of others yet to weigh in, and yes there are Sebenza owners that actually use there knives. , 0550 owners will come to share as well. Regarding S35VN, let's see what comes from its future prior to shouting out fail.

Now there are additional comments of marketing hype with S35VN...sounds familiar with S30V when it arrived on the scene. Come on now, it's a little early for these type comments IMO.

S35VN will be given it's chance in the marketplace. It will fairly or unfairly get a reputation like all the rest before them. Will it have it's place in the industry? Guess time will tell.

As to the 0550, we made the steel change from Vanax 35 to S35VN due to availability. Should it prove out that our customers are unsatisfied with S35VN, we'll move on. I have a feeling that S35VN will be ok, and it will show itself to be legit. Again, time will tell.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

When I comment on a steel, I am purely talking about edge retention. Most other factors aren't important for my testing.

My problem with the steel is the fact that it is being touted as having the same (or better) edge retention than S30V. That is completely false, at least in the knives that have been tested. (not just by me, Ankerson feels the same way)

I don't have a problem with the steel. I have a problem with it being pushed as the new improved S30V. Improved in what way? It doesn't hold an edge, it experiences major deformations when cutting (NONE of the other steels I've tested did this) and the edge becomes butter knife blunt.

I think we can all agree that kind of performance is poor. You may not follow my channel, probably not, so I'll fill you in. Not one of the other steels I've tested have been as thoroughly dull at the end of the test as S35VN was. Not VG10, not 154cm, not AUS8a, nothing. You're trying to tell me that is normal for this steel? Come on.

Sure, I have tested a limited number of blades, but at this point there is a limited number of blades that I can actually test. As it becomes more ubiquitous, I will give it more chances. From what I've seen so far, it is a HUGE step down from S30V in terms of edge retention.

I don't have any personal stakes in this. I could care less. If the steel blew S30V out of the water, that's what I'd be saying right now.

As opposed to who's wrong?

I believe it's important that we be careful with blanket statements encapsulating any steel.
There are a lot of instances I hear people don't like a particular steel even though they would be the minority on BF's. Expectations play a huge part with all of this steel evaluation talk. What folks think and expect vs. what should be vs. what is, can get confusing and have mixed results. To try and label a particular grade can be ok, as each steel can have obvious positive and negative characteristics, but we have a tendency to overreact and come to finality conclusions that can be unfair or even inaccurate. Broad stroking steel is never a good idea, as real world experiences can differ wildly.

Some manufacturers offer lots of premium steels for the enthusiasts. This is all done for you. Not every exotic steel is going to be "better", or liked more than a previous grade. Edge retention doesn't have to be a steels end game. When looking up the definition of steel performance, edge retention is not always the right answer. While edge holding seems to be the measuring stick around these parts, other traits can be in many cases, much more important.

I know you are reporting your experience with S35VN, and it's I feel bad for your results. Let's just remember, we're talking a limited number of blades in question here. There are plenty of others yet to weigh in, and yes there are Sebenza owners that actually use there knives. , 0550 owners will come to share as well. Regarding S35VN, let's see what comes from its future prior to shouting out fail.

Now there are additional comments of marketing hype with S35VN...sounds familiar with S30V when it arrived on the scene. Come on now, it's a little early for these type comments IMO.

S35VN will be given it's chance in the marketplace. It will fairly or unfairly get a reputation like all the rest before them. Will it have it's place in the industry? Guess time will tell.

As to the 0550, we made the steel change from Vanax 35 to S35VN due to availability. Should it prove out that our customers are unsatisfied with S35VN, we'll move on. I have a feeling that S35VN will be ok, and it will show itself to be legit. Again, time will tell.

 

[Thomas W]

My problem with the steel is the fact that it is being touted as having the same (or better) edge retention than S30V. That is completely false, at least in the knives that have been tested. (not just by me, Ankerson feels the same way)

I'm unsure if 2 people qualify as enough to label a steel.

I don't have a problem with the steel. I have a problem with it being pushed as the new improved S30V. Improved in what way? It doesn't hold an edge, it experiences major deformations when cutting (NONE of the other steels I've tested did this) and the edge becomes butter knife blunt.

I think we can all agree that kind of performance is poor. You may not follow my channel, probably not, so I'll fill you in. Not one of the other steels I've tested have been as thoroughly dull at the end of the test as S35VN was. Not VG10, not 154cm, not AUS8a, nothing. You're trying to tell me that is normal for this steel? Come on.

Actually, it sounds like you do have a problem with the steel.

Without reading your posts on this subject, or watching your channel (I'm sure it worth the time, and hopefully I'll get to it), have you talked about other possibilities for the poor performance? Do you know what the Rc is? Perhaps it's HT is off? There may be an explanation outside of the steel is a complete miserable failure.

Sure, I have tested a limited number of blades, but at this point there is a limited number of blades that I can actually test. As it becomes more ubiquitous, I will give it more chances.

Sounds fair.

From what I've seen so far, it is a HUGE step down from S30V in terms of edge retention.

From what you wrote, it's a step down from about everything, which leads me to the questions above.

I don't have any personal stakes in this. I could care less. If the steel blew S30V out of the water, that's what I'd be saying right now.

I don't believe anyone to think otherwise.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I'm unsure if 2 people qualify as enough to label a steel.

I don't think we are claiming a label, just sharing our results and opinions.

Actually, it sounds like you do have a problem with the steel.

Not in the least bit. What would I gain from bashing the steel unwarranted? I can't see any reason that someone would think I have some personal stake in this. I have 2 knives in the steel, that's about as far as my cares go.

Without reading your posts on this subject, or watching your channel (I'm sure it worth the time, and hopefully I'll get to it), have you talked about other possibilities for the poor performance? Do you know what the Rc is? Perhaps it's HT is off? There may be an explanation outside of the steel is a complete miserable failure.

It's not my job to speculate on what is wrong, so I don't. I just share my experiences as accurately as I can. Of course there may be other explanations. I am not claiming that the steel is a complete and utter failure and will never be up to par. Don't you remember quoting me above saying that "Kershaw may get it right."??

Sounds fair.

It is.

From what you wrote, it's a step down from about everything, which leads me to the questions above.

It is a large step down from S30V. Of course how much will vary from steel to steel. But, S35VN blunted and dulled more than any other steel I've tested. This isn't conjecture, since it is all on video.
I don't believe anyone to think otherwise.






I can see why you're defending the steel. I mean hell, y'all just released a knife in this steel. I would be defending it too, but there is no denying that CRK and Spyderco haven't gotten it right.

No offense meant. Perhaps you are willing to send me a 550 to test? That would be a good way to have another data point. Just for the record, I love Kershaw. That is why I'm saying that I really do hope that your implementation of the steel turns out to be awesome.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Thomas, here is a little tidbit of info that another member just posted in a different thread.

Originally Posted by Jon Walker View Post
Catra testing of the steel have shown it to not perform as well as S30v in edge retention with both at the same rockwell.

The added Niobium makes it easier to finish and easier to sharpen but it will not hold the edge as long.

Link for the skeptics... http://www.bucorp.com/files/CATRA_Test_Results.pdf

PM 14-2-4 CrMoV is S30v and PM 14-2-3 CrMoVN is CPM S35VN.

If you aren't super anal retentive the steel still has good performance. I just want my knives to be extraordinary.

 

[Thomas W]

CTS, I'm not accusing you of anything. S35VN comes in with some strong words that didn't add up in your test. Your results with S35VN speak for themselves. It just seems strange that the steel was such an under performer and not just compared to S30V, that it makes me believe the specimen you used has an issue.

We as a company are not all in with S35VN. We have no plans in moving to S35VN in the models that sport S30V, or any other model for that matter. It is a new steel for us (well, and everyone), and we felt a strong offering outside of our hoped for Vanax 35.

Hell, I'll send you a 0550 and you can have another S35VN example to try and test, no problem. If you want to send me your S35VN example, I'll be happy to Rc it for you and put it through the paces myself and quickly get it back to you. Just let me know.


You're screwing me up with those edits of yours...

 

[Thomas W]

Thomas, here is a little tidbit of info that another member just posted in a different thread.

Certainly sounds like a completely different experience from yours.

 

[thegeek574]

this knife testing stuff has its upsides .

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

CTS, I'm not accusing you of anything. S35VN comes in with some strong words that didn't add up in your test. Your results with S35VN speak for themselves. It just seems strange that the steel was such an under performer and not just compared to S30V, that it makes me believe the specimen you used has an issue.

We as a company are not all in with S35VN. We have no plans in moving to S35VN in the models that sport S30V, or any other model for that matter. It is a new steel for us (well, and everyone), and we felt a strong offering outside of our hoped for Vanax 35.

Hell, I'll send you a 0550 and you can have another S35VN example to try and test, no problem. If you want to send me your S35VN example, I'll be happy to Rc it for you and put it through the paces myself and quickly get it back to you. Just let me know.


Just read your edit.

I edited that a**hole part out, haha.

I am more than willing to test any knife you send to me. I'm not biased at all, since I don't really care either way, so it'll get the same treatment as the rest of them. If it fairs well, then it would be a big notch on Kershaws bed post, since no one else is getting it right yet. (at least in my experience)

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

this knife testing stuff has its upsides .

I highly doubt he wants me to keep the knife, haha.

 

[Thomas W]

I edited that asshole part out, haha.

I am more than willing to test any knife you send to me. I'm not biased at all, since I don't really care either way,

...and neither are we. There is nothing to hide here.

If it fairs well, then it would be a big notch on Kershaws bed post, since no one else is getting it right yet. (at least in my experience)

I'm unsure what criteria is needed to get a bed post notch, but like S30V, I don't think it will perform as an extreme edge holder. I also don't expect it to be the dog you experienced.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

...and neither are we. There is nothing to hide here.
I'm unsure what criteria is needed to get a bed post notch, but like S30V, I don't think it will perform as an extreme edge holder. I also don't expect it to be the dog you experienced.

Well, let's put it this way - if the knife survives the test without having a completely warped and blunted edge then it's good to go in my book.

Hopefully it will, since it sports a thicker blade stock.

 

[Crackedblade]

Looking forward to see the results guys! I do enjoy a thorough and clean back and fourth thread :thumbup:
And BTW. Crimson, please send your S35V blade to Thomas for some testing.