1095 Cro-Van and 50-110B Types of Steel

[D-weaver]

If that is the case. Can I bring up, that you mentioned you keep your steels below critical for anything you do prior to austenizing in a different thread D D-weaver ? If you are forging your steels, or getting them from different suppliers you really aren't going to be able to get a proper normalization, or any kind of thermal cycling in a forge. by keeping them below critical, and that could compound any other problems that are already happening during your ht.

they get three shaping heats , but I don't do full heavy forging. The shaping is just to taper the blanks for chisels as the chisels at the cutting end are about 1/2 the thickness at the tang. I get better results with 26c3 with the three heats and the subcritical cycles.

I didn't want to exclude the three early heats for the samples that I sent to larrin for those because he requests no forging, so instead of heating them and forging them, I just heated them and let them air cool, and then let them rest and then did the cycling.

The very first sample of 26c3 that I got, I heated to a high temperature pretty quickly in a chisel - I guess it did get some shaping -and no cycles, and it wasn't as good as the samples I sent to larrin. It was easy to tell that because it's a chisel - I can use two good chisels, one next to the other - chisels will always fail at some point in the last several thousandths of the edge, and if you use two on the same piece of wood doing the same thing, you'll find out which is better within only a couple of minutes. I started snapping samples, and doing what I could to get the grain to look smaller. I didn't know at the time the coarseness was probably carbides.

Starrett O1 is the exception I mentioned, though I did the same thing I mentioned above, but because I usually use it in plane irons and starrett is spheroidized, it's probably not necessary. I've never noticed untoward results, but I cycle it now, anyway. I don't use it for chisels and have only ever made one - incidentally, for a guy who is a professional woodworker and who can never stop telling me how stupid it is for a woodworker to make tools. Two weeks ago, he publicly mentioned that the O1 chisel that he has is the only chisel he's got in his shop that will tolerate working at as low of an angle as he likes.

Larrin's test of my poor results with 1095 and 1084 suggests that I either need to look at what I'm starting with or that I need to shoot past quench heat a little bit less. 1084 results were spectacularly bad. I also underheated a small set of XHP samples - but that was part of the free lunch hope. I've previously made about five plane irons and heated it much hotter. I'd guess they are better hardness but still lacking in toughness, but who knows. I wanted to try something and made a rational choice between those and the samples that maybe if I wasn't dissolving chromium, I didn't need to push it to a yellow heat before quenching. it was a poor decision.

It's not that easy to communicate this stuff on a forum - usually what you find is someone looking to poke holes in whatever you're doing more than to talk objectively or differentiate. I was surprised by the first results. Surprised a little by the second one (larrin didn't send a chart with the second one, thus my crayon like dot in the second chart).

As busy as larrin is, I felt sort of like I was wasting his time with the samples in the first place - I really initially contacted him because I was hoping to find a local place to take samples and just pay to have them tested, but he offered to test them.

 

[D-weaver]

Good luck

Regardless, I'll catalog your suggestion for 52100 - I still have some stock and at some point if I get a furnace, will use it to make knives. It takes violence to break even the forge samples in a vise with a very heavy hammer and its lack of fitness for woodworking - and then maybe connecting the dots and seeing that it has no historical use for woodworking tools while CV steels do, I guess it makes some sense.

I'm done with my lobbying with the steels for now, though - it looks like the VA alloy is scarce, the other ones aren't available, and some of the manufacturers are moving toward eutectoid steels. there is a small community of woodworkers who wants something "like the old steels" -they think it's 1095. I think it's not - it's more like steel with a little bit of nickel or chromium. '

A couple of guys tried making woodworking tools out of 3V. The had good wear resistance, but in actual use were just OK - too much toughness and not enough edge strength. I made a mental note of that, too, if I should ever make more knives. The knife community is crowded, though, so I can't really see the point other than to make thin knives here and there (for free) for the odd person who complains that they can't find a good slicing knife. I make those out of O1 at about 60 hardness - nobody has broken one yet. They'd be better in 52100, but maybe not if I made them out of 52100.

Thanks for the suggestions, though. The best I can do trying to find some long lost haul of esoteric steel that nobody likes anymore is ask around.

 

[Blankblank]

I'm not understanding how something can have too much toughness?

Maybe if we are equating toughness, to a lack of hardness, that would make sense. But in the case of something like 26c3, and 52100. Where if you have both at the exact same hardness, the toughness will be higher on the 52100. How will that result in worse results in worse results in any application. The edge stability will be the same, if not better with 52100, having the same strength, plus more impact resistance.

The only way I can see 52100 not doing as good as 26c3 in a woodworking chisel, is if the hardness suffered during the ht. Or possibly, problems with grain size, or something similar not being fixed post forging.

 

[D-weaver]

I certainly don't want to piss chuck off, either, because he is the only retailer for one of the only two steels that I heat treat well. It's such a good steel for chisels that it's differentiating for shop made chisels vs. commercial chisels. It sharpens easier than any hard chisel sold commercially and holds up better than any of the air hardening or other chisels that are made, and it doesn't cost much.

 

[Stuart Davenport Knives]

If you haven't checked out the new steel that's coming from Larrin's wizard shop, Apex Ultra, it might be something you're interested in. I am not sure if a chemical analysis has been made public yet, but I think it's a 1.1% carbon steel with vanadium, tungsten, and possibly small amounts of nitrogen and niobium. Don't quote me on that....it's been a while since I've looked at any of the articles. And again, I still don't see the issue with 80CrV2. How about 15n20? Pretty tough steel, gets plenty hard.

Also, side note as you were discussing pottery kilns that are top load with elements in the lid. I have a Skutt kiln that is just like that. 110V. I cut a little slot in the side of the kiln just wide and tall enough for a large knife. The kiln holds the heat even with that slot cut in it. You don't have to mess with the lid at all. Just slide the blade in, and slide it out.

 

[D-weaver]

I'm not understanding how something can have too much toughness?

Maybe if we are equating toughness, to a lack of hardness, that would make sense. But in the case of something like 26c3, and 52100. Where if you have both at the exact same hardness, the toughness will be higher on the 52100. How will that result in worse results in worse results in any application. The edge stability will be the same, if not better with 52100, having the same strength, plus more impact resistance.

The only way I can see 52100 not doing as good as 26c3 in a woodworking chisel, is if the hardness suffered during the ht. Or possibly, problems with grain size, or something similar not being fixed post forging.

So, imagine you're holding a chisel, and you mallet it across wood grain over and over, and cut out something like these (notice on the ends of the boards - those are half blinds).

https://imgur.com/eJniVZ9

this is such a common movement that it's easy to tell if something works well or less well. Ideally, you'd like the chisel edge to never fail, but at some point damage will begin to occur and when it does, two things can happen:
1) the damage can leave, and hopefully leave behind nothing sticking out that makes the edge fatter aside from the removed material
2) The damage can hold on to the edge, increase the thickness of the edge and impede penetration and I think probably help propagate further edge damage

Because wood is relatively hard, as soon as there is any significant amount of foil being pushed around, the effort to continue chopping increases significantly.

With something like 52100, you could just specify it hard at a low temper to try to work around this, but at somewhere around 60, and the same issue with 3V around the same hardness, the edge will not go away and you're stuck pushing this variable foil through wood. It sucks.

here is a picture of a chisel that's a little underhard, and tough. I was charting a sharpening method, but also four different chisels. The chisel that takes no damage keeps working well.

https://imgur.com/cTDg3u6

Notice the large foil - this is one made in england under the brand Sorby. Why they're a touch soft probably has to do with moving to a lower carbon steel for manufacturing ease and to prevent job site workers from breaking them and sending them back. But what happens at the edge is unsavory.

this is the same series of tests with a japanese chisel:

https://imgur.com/hxGkIoe

Notice that when the bevel angle is a little low, it chips, but there is no fat foil to push through the wood - it's gone. The difference in hardness makes it not possible to just conclude that toughness is the only factor.

But I think the short answer is the amount of resistance that wood offers chiseling across the grain creates something not normally done for knives.

I also think straight razors are sort of the same - that they're better because they won't hold on to a foil while being stropped. I learned to round the very tip of my chisels slightly to prevent damage as much as possible - like the last couple of thousandths of an inch. This is similar to what's done with a linen and strop with a straight razor.

So, what I want is steel that's strong and tough enough. I can get O1 to be those, but some people want very thin chisels that are in a historical pattern referred to as "seaton chest chisels". I'm not comfortable halving the thickness of my chisels and using O1 and the same people complain about 64 hardness 26c3 even though I've never had anyone comment anything untoward about the 26c3 chisels other than their hardness. Some people who wear tights and a fake pigtail also do not like that the steel is touted as being modern and similar to japanese white steel - as if something made very cleanly with a modern process is a threat to their re-enacting. I try not to make anything for people like that.

For scale, the worst of that damage is only about 4 thousandths deep. that's deep enough to cause a chisel to bounce in hardwood and be intolerable to use.

 

[D-weaver]

If you haven't checked out the new steel that's coming from Larrin's wizard shop, Apex Ultra, it might be something you're interested in.

Indeed, I am. If there is that and a few more things like it that are great but hard to get right in a quick forge heat treatment, they may help convince me to give up some floor space for a furnace.

 

[Blankblank]

So, imagine you're holding a chisel, and you mallet it across wood grain over and over, and cut out something like these (notice on the ends of the boards - those are half blinds).

https://imgur.com/eJniVZ9

this is such a common movement that it's easy to tell if something works well or less well. Ideally, you'd like the chisel edge to never fail, but at some point damage will begin to occur and when it does, two things can happen:
1) the damage can leave, and hopefully leave behind nothing sticking out that makes the edge fatter aside from the removed material
2) The damage can hold on to the edge, increase the thickness of the edge and impede penetration and I think probably help propagate further edge damage

Because wood is relatively hard, as soon as there is any significant amount of foil being pushed around, the effort to continue chopping increases significantly.

With something like 52100, you could just specify it hard at a low temper to try to work around this, but at somewhere around 60, and the same issue with 3V around the same hardness, the edge will not go away and you're stuck pushing this variable foil through wood. It sucks.

here is a picture of a chisel that's a little underhard, and tough. I was charting a sharpening method, but also four different chisels. The chisel that takes no damage keeps working well.

https://imgur.com/cTDg3u6

Notice the large foil - this is one made in england under the brand Sorby. Why they're a touch soft probably has to do with moving to a lower carbon steel for manufacturing ease and to prevent job site workers from breaking them and sending them back. But what happens at the edge is unsavory.

this is the same series of tests with a japanese chisel:

https://imgur.com/hxGkIoe

Notice that when the bevel angle is a little low, it chips, but there is no fat foil to push through the wood - it's gone. The difference in hardness makes it not possible to just conclude that toughness is the only factor.

But I think the short answer is the amount of resistance that wood offers chiseling across the grain creates something not normally done for knives.

I also think straight razors are sort of the same - that they're better because they won't hold on to a foil while being stropped. I learned to round the very tip of my chisels slightly to prevent damage as much as possible - like the last couple of thousandths of an inch. This is similar to what's done with a linen and strop with a straight razor.

So, what I want is steel that's strong and tough enough. I can get O1 to be those, but some people want very thin chisels that are in a historical pattern referred to as "seaton chest chisels". I'm not comfortable halving the thickness of my chisels and using O1 and the same people complain about 64 hardness 26c3 even though I've never had anyone comment anything untoward about the 26c3 chisels other than their hardness. Some people who wear tights and a fake pigtail also do not like that the steel is touted as being modern and similar to japanese white steel - as if something made very cleanly with a modern process is a threat to their re-enacting. I try not to make anything for people like that.

For scale, the worst of that damage is only about 4 thousandths deep. that's deep enough to cause a chisel to bounce in hardwood and be intolerable to use.

To me this seems more like a problem caused by not being hard enough, rather than it simply being too tough. I think 52100 ran at about 64 or so would do pretty well for a chisel. Maybe even 65, if 26c3 is able to perform at 64.

 

[Carter_Blades]

I certainly don't want to piss chuck off, either, because he is the only retailer for one of the only two steels that I heat treat well. It's such a good steel for chisels that it's differentiating for shop made chisels vs. commercial chisels. It sharpens easier than any hard chisel sold commercially and holds up better than any of the air hardening or other chisels that are made, and it doesn't cost much.

Chuck Bybee is not the only person in the world able to get these alloys, you just have to actually put effort into it aka Money. I think I understand what you are talking about, D D-weaver , but I think you should do some more research on toughness vs hardness. The reason I say that is because they are not as related as some people think which usually doesn't matter but being a professional woodworker, you will be able to tell things we won't.

 

[D-weaver]

To me this seems more like a problem caused by not being hard enough, rather than it simply being too tough. I think 52100 ran at about 64 or so would do pretty well for a chisel. Maybe even 65, if 26c3 is able to perform at 64.

I think that's the case. I also think this change to edge behavior (sorry to belabor it for people not interested in chisels) happens at a different hardness even if two steels temper around the same place. For example, 52100 and O-1 temper around the same ballpark - maybe O1 is a tick harder in industrial charts. At 61 hardness, O1 doesn't exhibit this behavior of holding on to the edge (it's also a very poor performer at a hardness around 64).

I considered for a little while making chisels out of 52100 barely tempered, but old heller files and 26c3 make such a good chisel that's even less resistant to sharpening (sharpens even easier at same hardness than 52100 on natural stones) that I didn't look further. I also figured that I could look closer at 52100 if I ever got a furnace - it's cheap, which is attractive, but even 26c3 doesn't really cost much.

There are some folks who use oilstones in woodworking, too. I doubt I get full hardness out of the quench with 52100, but an india stone will barely touch it, so it's way above 61. 26c3 solves the extra hardness that I wanted to get something differentiating in feel (as in, if I give someone a chisel and they sharpen it, will it actually feel better than anything commercially made right now - the answer to that is yes other than japanese chisels). 52100, I think, solves a toughness problem in woodworking that doesn't really exist because we don't pry or bend tools in the cut. They generally go straight in, a chip is released and only then are the tools levered. that's not to preserve the tool, but rather to preserve the edge - based on what I showed above, and how little edge damage it takes to really affect the cut and start leaving a woodworker with a stiff shoulder.

 

[D-weaver]

Chuck Bybee is not the only person in the world able to get these alloys, you just have to actually put effort into it aka Money. I think I understand what you are talking about, D D-weaver , but I think you should do some more research on toughness vs hardness. The reason I say that is because they are not as related as some people think which usually doesn't matter but being a professional woodworker, you will be able to tell things we won't.

You're right - it's sort of like straight razors. How tough is the steel in straight razors? I think it's probably not very tough. How fine is it? I think it's not the finest micrograph like 1084 would show - I think it's always steel with excess carbon and not much else in it. It's the same hardness and less tough than some other steels, but makes a better razor.

We don't push the limits of toughness in woodworking, but too poor and it will show up. We do get a lot of feel for hardness, which woodworkers confuse with toughness. "Japanese chisels have a really tough edge". In white steel, they have reasonable toughness and a strong edge, and the steel doesn't retain a burr nor will it allow one to form with some damage.

I think a lot of people who want a really tough knife for day to day use actually want a knife with good edge fineness, good burr characteristics, a thinner grind excellent strength with just enough toughness that they don't notice toughness being a problem. I can tell hardness within a very small range on plain steels, but will not notice toughness issues without devising some kind of non-woodworking test, until they are in the range where my 1095 sample was. I also can't say for sure that the tiny microchips that occur are due to a lack of toughness - I can only speculate.

At any rate, testing tools for woodworking is so easy compared to knives - everyone will use the tools pretty much the same way, especially now when site use of tools in the US is generally dead - eliminating the need to temper any soft lest they be used to open paint cans.

 

[Stuart Davenport Knives]

Just FYI.....USA Knifemaker does stock 50100 at the moment. Not 52100, but 50100 It's .145"x3.5"x36". Not sure if you're interested in something like that. It's very close to what I remember the Sharon Carbon V steel, but 50100 doesn't have vanadium.

 

[D-weaver]

Just FYI.....USA Knifemaker does stock 50100 at the moment. Not 52100, but 50100 It's .145"x3.5"x36". Not sure if you're interested in something like that. It's very close to what I remember the Sharon Carbon V steel, but 50100 doesn't have vanadium.

yessir - that's what sparked this question. I got (I think) 8 bars of it. If it was in 0.1", 0.125, 0.14 and 0.25", it'd have gotten all of those, too - it's more resistant to grain growth than 1095 in forge heat treating - really nice. the B versions with vanadium would've been better yet, but unless someone finds a secret pallet.

 

[Stuart Davenport Knives]

Man, what have I been thinking this whole time??????

How about Cru Forge V? It is one of my favorite low alloy steels. I think the only supply left is at Alpha Knife Supply in .25" stock. Been a while since I've looked. It is 1% carbon, 0.50% chromium, 0.75% vanadium. I would think spot on for what you're looking for. It also has 0.75% Mn, so you don't need a fast oil to quench, but I use Parks 50 on it anyway. GREAT steel. I wish it was still being produced.

 

[D-weaver]

Man, what have I been thinking this whole time??????

How about Cru Forge V? It is one of my favorite low alloy steels. I think the only supply left is at Alpha Knife Supply in .25" stock. Been a while since I've looked. It is 1% carbon, 0.50% chromium, 0.75% vanadium. I would think spot on for what you're looking for. It also has 0.75% Mn, so you don't need a fast oil to quench, but I use Parks 50 on it anyway. GREAT steel. I wish it was still being produced.

I will get some. I was a little put off by some of the large stray carbides in larrin's micrographs. I'm heat treating in a forge, so there won't be dissolving of anything that's vanadium. I haven't read to see if they're reduced in shaping/forging, but I'm not set up to do more than light shaping. Larrin's page shows a lot of room for hitting a 61/62 target, though.

 

[Stuart Davenport Knives]

That is true, there is some "clumping" of vanadium carbide in CFV. For the type of knives I make that are geared more toward the slice, rather than the push, they aren't a problem.

 

[A.McPherson]

. I'm heat treating in a forge, so there won't be dissolving of anything that's vanadium.

You know, getting someone else to HT for you is pretty cheap...
If the more "advanced" steels are beyond your equipment capabilities, just get someone else to do it.

www.jarodtodd.com

They charge 12 bucks plus shipping, for a basic steel +6.25 for something more exotic.

It's pretty cheap, especially if you do them in batches. Plus you can dictate what hardness you want, and whether you want cryo treatment or not etc.

Just an option.

 

[D-weaver]

You know, getting someone else to HT for you is pretty cheap...
If the more "advanced" steels are beyond your equipment capabilities, just get someone else to do it.

www.jarodtodd.com

They charge 12 bucks plus shipping, for a basic steel +6.25 for something more exotic.

It's pretty cheap, especially if you do them in batches. Plus you can dictate what hardness you want, and whether you want cryo treatment or not etc.

Just an option.

We had a go at this on one of the other topics. I do actually have some wants that will either require me to buy a furnace or send out (sending out would be more sensible at this point) if I can find someone who will push AEB-L to high hardness - especially.

 

[A.McPherson]

JTknives is the way to go, he's a lot of makers go-to guy for AEB-L

 

[mooniesdl3]

I've just sent Jarod a batch of AEB-L blanks to heat treat for me. He really is the go-to guy for AEB-L.