1095...So what's the verdict?

Don, do you think that Don Fogg is seeking for performance perfection in relation to toughness and edge retention with his steel selection, or does his use of 1095 lend itself to a perfect canvas for the incredible activity he creates in his hamon?
 
Matt, I can't answer for Don. My guess is he strives for both.

I do know that Matt Lamey goes for performance and uses alot of 1095 and Tough Quench.

I don't use 1095 anymore but it is a good blade steel.
 
It seems to me like a psychological battle... I could go and use the Tough Quench and get hardness in my blades similar to that of masters like Don Fogg.... Or I can go ahead and use the canola which is in itself an extremely fast quenchant, possibly faster even than the Tough Quench and masters like Tai Goo use it very successfully. However with the canola I get people say "It's not good enough or fast enough, you need a formulated oil like Parks 50"... but even the Tough Quench which is slower than Parks will work because it's a "real" quenchant.:rolleyes: Everything is so mechanized, and so scientifically formulated or engineered these days that it seems people are losing their faith in good old mother nature. I never liked man-made substitutes for anything.
 
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R.C.Reichert said:
It seems to me like a psychological battle... I could go and use the Tough Quench and get hardness in my blades similar to that of masters like Don Fogg.... Or I can go ahead and use the canola which is in itself an extremely fast quenchant, possibly faster even than the Tough Quench and masters like Tai Goo use it very successfully. However with the canola I get people say "It's not good enough or fast enough, you need a formulated oil like Parks 50"... but even the Tough Quench which is slower than Parks will work because it's a "real" quenchant.:rolleyes: Everything is so mechanized, and so scientifically formulated or engineered these days that it seems people are losing their faith in good old mother nature. I never liked man-made substitutes for anything.
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LOL....you must not like steel then, because it doesn't occur naturally ;)
 
R.C.Reichert said:
It seems to me like a psychological battle... I could go and use the Tough Quench and get hardness in my blades similar to that of masters like Don Fogg.... Or I can go ahead and use the canola which is in itself an extremely fast quenchant, possibly faster even than the Tough Quench and masters like Tai Goo use it very successfully. However with the canola I get people say "It's not good enough or fast enough, you need a formulated oil like Parks 50"... but even the Tough Quench which is slower than Parks will work because it's a "real" quenchant.:rolleyes: Everything is so mechanized, and so scientifically formulated or engineered these days that it seems people are losing their faith in good old mother nature. I never liked man-made substitutes for anything.
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Good Answer!

Try 1 pound water softener salt dissolved in 3.8 litres of water at 100F.
 
Don Hanson III said:
Because I have tons of W2 stacked in the shop :D
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...of which, I have to point out, I haven't gotten my free sample, btw... I'd settle for something like this:

walhambowie05.jpg


Email me for my address!;):D:D
 
Philosophically speaking it’s a debate between idealism and pragmatism. Also to some degree, absolutism versus relativism. These types of debates have been going on for a long long time.

You can choose which ever side you want. However, real world thinkers and the majority tend to go with pragmatism and relativism.
 
The fast quenches were made for particularly large parts, not only simple steels. I have a pfd document called 'Houghton on quenching', it does explain different quenchant's and why one type is better than another for whatever aplication. Anyway I think its worth the read and some of you may or may not change your minds on the subject.
 
There was an thread a while back where they scientifically compared canola to formulated quench. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710583&highlight=canola+oil The Canola was actually faster initially than the designed quench, then the quench caught up at Mf. Basic conclusion was that the commercial quenches did a better job of matching up to the requirements during the entire cooling curve. Plus the commercial quenches were less likely to oxidize the steel, a small point as most finish grinding after the HT. That being said, I think that with all other factors being equal and good fresh canola you would be hard pressed to prove inferior results to Parks 50 on thinner sections like a normal blade. Personally, I will continue to use Parks because I have it and the cost when spread over a lot of blades is insignificant when you look at all the costs of producing quality blades. If I only figured to do a few blades of simple steel I would use canola and not worry about it. I am getting into this for the long haul and want the best I can afford in as many aspects as I can.
 
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john0270 said:
The fast quenches were made for particularly large parts, not only simple steels. I have a pfd document called 'Houghton on quenching', it does explain different quenchant's and why one type is better than another for whatever aplication. Anyway I think its worth the read and some of you may or may not change your minds on the subject.
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I had a look at that pfd you were talking about...very interesting stuff.

Here is a quote from it...

"High speed quenching oils are used for applications such as lowhardenability alloys, carburised and carbo-nitrited components, or
large cross-sections of medium hardenability steels where very high
rates of cooling are required to ensure maximum mechanical
properties"

So basically, unless my knives are 3 or 4 inches thick at the spine:eek:, it seems Parks#50 is an overkill.:D
 
With canola, I like to finish the quench in air, which I assume is even slower than any of the commercial quenching fluids. So, It starts faster and ends slower. :)
 
R.C.Reichert said:
I had a look at that pfd you were talking about...very interesting stuff.

Here is a quote from it...

"High speed quenching oils are used for applications such as lowhardenability alloys, carburised and carbo-nitrited components, or
large cross-sections of medium hardenability steels where very high
rates of cooling are required to ensure maximum mechanical
properties"

So basically, unless my knives are 3 or 4 inches thick at the spine:eek:, it seems Parks#50 is an overkill.:D
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You didn't highlight the rest of the important bit there... "of medium hardenability steels". They're talking about a whole different class of steels than we use.

-d
 
deker said:
You didn't highlight the rest of the important bit there... "of medium hardenability steels". They're talking about a whole different class of steels than we use.

-d
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So 1095 is considered a low hardenability steel then? Sorry, I don't know a great deal about it. It seems to me that when you are dealing with 4" thickness of steel versus maybe 1/4" on a large knife and then tapered to a fine edge at that, the hardenability is less of a factor than the actual mass of the object being quenched. But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.
 
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I read the Houghton PDF also.

I tried to copy and paste a paragraph but couldn't figure that out. The one I'm talking about is at the bottom of page 9.

My understanding of that paragraph is this.

Vapor Phase- This stage of the quench gets you under the nose to form martensite instead of pearlite (faster is better)

Conduction phase- cooling too fast during this stage is what will cause deformation (warp) and cracking due to stress in the steel during the martensite transformation that occurs during this part of the quench. (hence the issues with water, slower is better)

I've also been using an interupted quench on my 1095 and perhaps this is why I haven't had big issues with warping or cracking. (admitidly this is on 5 blades, not 55, or 105) I chose to go with an interupted quench because of reading Kevin Cashen's stickies.

I do agree that using an interupted quench is a VARIABLE but it seems to me that taking the blade out of the oil when it stops boiling (signalling the end of the boiling phase and the begining of the convection phase) shouldn't be that difficult to master.

Now I'm lead to pose this question.

What needs to happen to get the most out of the steel. As I understand it-

1. Make martensite and not pearlite
2. Dont crack (or warp)

Reguardless of the quenchant if these things are accopmlished you're golden on the hardening stage of your HT - ??????

All other perfomance issuses of the blade to be determined by the tempering process -?????

Thanks guys ! For sharing your thoughts and links to other sources of info.

-Josh
 
With the interrupted quench, I wait until it stops bubbling AND smoking. If you take it out and see smoke (or flames for sure) it could still be a bit too hot. You can handle it with gloves, but not bare hands. There's plenty of time with the canola to get it out while it's still a little hot. Another nice thing about the interrupted quench is you also have an opportunity to straighten it before it completely sets up. It's really not that hard to do, if you just pay attention to it.

I think most vegetable oil has a boiling point around 400, and some oils like peanut have a smoke point as high as about 440.
 
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Tai Goo said:
Philosophically speaking it’s a debate between idealism and pragmatism. Also to some degree, absolutism versus relativism. These types of debates have been going on for a long long time.

You can choose which ever side you want. However, real world thinkers and the majority tend to go with pragmatism and relativism.
Click to expand...

....that must be in your world.
 
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