Tai Goo
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Me either. It's not like we're saying it's magic or anything.
It does tend to start real fast and end real slow though, and I like that about it.
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1095...So what's the verdict?
- Thread starter R.C.Reichert
- Start date
Me either. It's not like we're saying it's magic or anything.
It does tend to start real fast and end real slow though, and I like that about it.
Nathan the Machinist
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SShepherd,
It bothers me that you are attacking Tai like this. The I see it, you have accumulated a little bit of knowledge (enough to be dangerous) and feel the need to go to war with someone who doesn't see it the same way you do. I don't want to start a fight with you, and I know it is generally futile to try to change the mind or perspective of another person already set in their way of thinking, especialy on the internet, but here goes:
I use "real" quenching oil because it is easier for me. Tai Goo does not, because he has more of a history with canola oil and he understands how it behaves and because it is what he wants to do.
Does it bother you because it makes his knives somehow inferior? Rest assured it doesn't. While "real" quenching oil is better matched to the cooling rate requirements of steel, the fact is that canola oil is, over all, slightly faster than many appropriate "real" quenching oils that would be used by industry for knife shaped parts. The primary disadvantage is faster cooling at both the start and end of the quench which can lead to warping issues. I'm not convinced that pearlite is a problem in the edge of 1095 quenched in canola oil. I'm not saying a small about can't make it there, but we're talking about knives, not aircraft landing gear. And don't fool yourself with "real" oil - it won't guaranty better results. Within the specifications of 1095, it is possible to have steel that regardless how fast you quench there will be some pearlite. The curve goes all the way over and touches the left side of the chart.
And so it really truly becomes a philosophical debate. You can not debate that it makes an unworthy product because it doesn't. I have performance tested knives by many makers and manufacturers, including Tai Goo, and I will stake my reputation on this forum when I say his HT is just fine. A knife I have that he made is top notch. You'll have to trust me, this is a subject where I know what I'm talking about. So to continue to debate and get worked up over who quenches in what is misguided. And it really does become a philosophical argument, like which should you buy, a GM or a Toyota, so there is no use getting one's shorts in a twist when it gets discussed that way. To someone who can see the whole picture it really becomes a philosophical debate.
A while back Kevin Cashen made a pattern welded blade in O1 and L6 and used it in a cutting competition to beat out blades made of M4. Most knowledgeable people would say that M4 is the better material for that application (and have scientific stats for their argument), but Kevin's blade won. That is because he knows pattern welding and he knows those steels and he knows geometry and he applied his knoledge and made a high performance blade.
Tai Goo has been making blades since before there were internet forums (or an internet) and is a world renowned bladesmith with a well known history of excellent blades that see real use. He quenches in a fluid that he has used for decades and whose properties he is familiar with. He knows his steels and how to handle heat, he knows geometry and he has more expertise than most anyone on this forum and he applies it to the blades he makes. To misunderstand his modisty when he openly accepts that nothing he makes is perfect is both insulting to a true master of the art, and doens't make you look too good either. And it isn't good for our forum.
It bothers me that you are attacking Tai like this. The I see it, you have accumulated a little bit of knowledge (enough to be dangerous) and feel the need to go to war with someone who doesn't see it the same way you do. I don't want to start a fight with you, and I know it is generally futile to try to change the mind or perspective of another person already set in their way of thinking, especialy on the internet, but here goes:
I use "real" quenching oil because it is easier for me. Tai Goo does not, because he has more of a history with canola oil and he understands how it behaves and because it is what he wants to do.
Does it bother you because it makes his knives somehow inferior? Rest assured it doesn't. While "real" quenching oil is better matched to the cooling rate requirements of steel, the fact is that canola oil is, over all, slightly faster than many appropriate "real" quenching oils that would be used by industry for knife shaped parts. The primary disadvantage is faster cooling at both the start and end of the quench which can lead to warping issues. I'm not convinced that pearlite is a problem in the edge of 1095 quenched in canola oil. I'm not saying a small about can't make it there, but we're talking about knives, not aircraft landing gear. And don't fool yourself with "real" oil - it won't guaranty better results. Within the specifications of 1095, it is possible to have steel that regardless how fast you quench there will be some pearlite. The curve goes all the way over and touches the left side of the chart.
And so it really truly becomes a philosophical debate. You can not debate that it makes an unworthy product because it doesn't. I have performance tested knives by many makers and manufacturers, including Tai Goo, and I will stake my reputation on this forum when I say his HT is just fine. A knife I have that he made is top notch. You'll have to trust me, this is a subject where I know what I'm talking about. So to continue to debate and get worked up over who quenches in what is misguided. And it really does become a philosophical argument, like which should you buy, a GM or a Toyota, so there is no use getting one's shorts in a twist when it gets discussed that way. To someone who can see the whole picture it really becomes a philosophical debate.
A while back Kevin Cashen made a pattern welded blade in O1 and L6 and used it in a cutting competition to beat out blades made of M4. Most knowledgeable people would say that M4 is the better material for that application (and have scientific stats for their argument), but Kevin's blade won. That is because he knows pattern welding and he knows those steels and he knows geometry and he applied his knoledge and made a high performance blade.
Tai Goo has been making blades since before there were internet forums (or an internet) and is a world renowned bladesmith with a well known history of excellent blades that see real use. He quenches in a fluid that he has used for decades and whose properties he is familiar with. He knows his steels and how to handle heat, he knows geometry and he has more expertise than most anyone on this forum and he applies it to the blades he makes. To misunderstand his modisty when he openly accepts that nothing he makes is perfect is both insulting to a true master of the art, and doens't make you look too good either. And it isn't good for our forum.
I was actually lookng for a viable alternative until such time that I can acquire or afford something potentially "better" if need be...may not need it though. It is good to know that there are commonly available, inexpensive alternatives that will work. I will probably get the Houghton Quench K at some point in the near future, but for now, at least I know from an experts point of view, that my 1095 blades quenched in canola will still make good hardworking knives. I wasn't quite sure before. Sorry if my post seemed misleading.
This hits right at he heart of why I even bother to comment in the "will X quench work" threads. Let's take a minute and discuss the "expensive" vs. "inexpensive" argument for a second. Let's compare prices of various commonly mentioned quenching mediums.
Canola Oil - $19/gal
ATF - $43/3 gal or, $14.30/gal
Peanut Oil - $15/gal
What's Parks #50 selling for around here? $20/gal? And some of you guys are putting $40 burl blocks on your canola oil quenched knives. What makes a better performing knife, the heat treatment or the number of eyes in the burl on the handle? I just don't buy this "it's too expensive" argument. How much did you guys spend on your forge? Anvil? Hammers? Tongs? Steel? Why is it that specialty tools are just fine and dandy until it's your quenching medium. I just don't get it. How many guys quenching in something other than an oil designed for quenching are scraping their pennies together for one of Tai's hammers?
As far as the "I like it because it's natural" argument goes. Great, enjoy that. Please at least be honest with your customers though and advertise that you make "natural" knives, not the best performing knives you can. While you're at it, why don't you put canola oil in your transmission and engine? What? You wouldn't do that? Why? Oh, right...it's not made for that use...
Also, those claiming that we're "attacking" canola oil....I think you'll find that if you go back and read the commentary, we're not attacking your beloved seed grease, we're simply stating that there is something else that works better. That's all. Are we firm in our arguments? You bet we are! There are those of us here that strive with every knife to make the highest quality, highest performance tool we can. Others that claim that they do the same, but in reality go with what's easy, close, natural, cheap, makes them feel good, or whatever really marginalize all of the hard work and effort that those of us who "go the extra mile" do.
-d
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I mentioned that canola oil was cheap and natural, but that's not the reason I use it...not at all. I would be more than willing to pay the premium price for some Parks #50 if I could get my hands on some. Last time I went to Ranger Originals in Cremona, I was told they had some Parks#50 on order, but they were not sure when the shipment would get in. So I was waiting.... Rob informed me that a place locally has Houghton Quench K and that is great news...but is it better than canola? You're claiming me to not be willing to "go the extra mile" is a load of crap. I'm willing to "go the extra mile" and test every single one of my blades 10 times over just to make sure that it is up to snuff. Perhaps there are those who are so confident in their Parks oil or their 2000 dollar furnace that they don't even bother to test their blades anymore?
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Deker, I like you man but there is nothing wrong with canola oil
I use Park's 50 but would buy a Tai Goo knife without a second thought. He's a bit different (in a good way) but the man knows what he's doing!
I use Park's 50 but would buy a Tai Goo knife without a second thought. He's a bit different (in a good way) but the man knows what he's doing!
Deker, I like you man but there is nothing wrong with canola oil
I use Park's 50 but would buy a Tai Goo knife without a second thought. He's a bit different (in a good way) but the man knows what he's doing!
I never said there's anything wrong with canola Don, just that for the steel in question here, there is something that is measurably better for the task. There's nothing wrong with a Honda either, but can a Porche get you there faster? (the 914 notwithstanding
)I'll admit, I get a little hot under the collar when I hear the "less expensive" line of reasoning when prices are on par. It's a pet peeve of mine. Personally, I've never had issues getting Parks when i needed it, maybe I just have really good timing, I dunno...It's not the only game in town though.
-d
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Deker, I'm with ya man.
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I never said there's anything wrong with canola Don, just that for the steel in question here, there is something that is measurably better for the task. There's nothing wrong with a Honda either, but can a Porche get you there faster? (the 914 notwithstanding
I'll admit, I get a little hot under the collar when I hear the "less expensive" line of reasoning when prices are on par. It's a pet peeve of mine. Personally, I've never had issues getting Parks when i needed it, maybe I just have really good timing, I dunno...It's not the only game in town though.
-d
Sorry, it was just a fact that canola is a less expensive and easier to come by alternative, not that it's an excuse for me to use it. I'm not trying to "cheap out". I'm just trying to get some professional opinions and do the best with what I got until I can get the "real" stuff. So far it seems many of the professionals agree canola will do the job just as well. If my knives are even half as good as Tai Goo's I'll be a very happy knifemaker.
Matthew Gregory
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This is the part of the original topic that I'm not sure I understand... if you've used each of these previously mentioned steels in past designs with success, why would you wish to consider something that might force you to compromise the performance you seek in any one of the designs?
I use a fair amount of 1095 for my larger blades, but admittedly it's for the creative and aesthetic advantages it has over steels that offer greater 'performance' (as Don's work has inspired me, I adore hamon for it's beauty).
Another thought might be that the difficulty in procuring the proper materials to offer superior performance with such a steel as 1095 should beg you to consider a different selection in alternate steel - or maybe stick with a few sizes of stock in an easier to treat steel that offers improvements and learn the proper forging methods to better make use of the stock, thereby eliminating the need for this question - this latter alternative being the one I'd suspect Tai, of all people, would prefer you choose, as this is what truly separates a conventional bladesmith from the pack, no?
Here's a pic I finked from one of Mace Vitale's threads referencing Christoph Deringer:
"Some more of Christophs work...The top knife has 8 hidden pins in the handle done in such a way the slabs can never pull apart....to the right is some of his "blade stock" All three of these knives are one piece of steel tip to butt!
I could not stop looking at this knife...Made from a ball bearing...from tip to butt is ONE PIECE!!! "
Just a thought!
Nathan
this is what botherd me about tai's "philosophy" if you will
"I dont use idealism or pure performance as a selling point for my knives or as a marketing strategy."
neither of those were issues, or even brought up in the OP.
You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. There was no initial attack, I actually agree with tai's statement "I've been getting satisfactory results with it, but don't claim that it is ideal, fool proof or the best choice for everyone.
There are other factors to consider with quench speeds,... mainly geometry and to some degree grain size. I only recommend using it on thin stock with 1095, up to about 1/8 inch. However, some folks say it works O.K. up to about 1/4 inch. Keep in mind though we're talking about a wedge or diamond shaped cross section.
he's spot on
I've retyped this about a dozen times..your right, we have a difference in philosophy, plain and simple.
this is what botherd me about tai's "philosophy" if you will
"I dont use idealism or pure performance as a selling point for my knives or as a marketing strategy."
neither of those were issues, or even brought up in the OP.
You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. There was no initial attack, I actually agree with tai's statement "I've been getting satisfactory results with it, but don't claim that it is ideal, fool proof or the best choice for everyone.
There are other factors to consider with quench speeds,... mainly geometry and to some degree grain size. I only recommend using it on thin stock with 1095, up to about 1/8 inch. However, some folks say it works O.K. up to about 1/4 inch. Keep in mind though we're talking about a wedge or diamond shaped cross section.
he's spot on
I've retyped this about a dozen times..your right, we have a difference in philosophy, plain and simple.
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Matthew. I can use O1, but I don't have really any proper temperature control to soak the blades properly. I am told this will not make a good blade for 01. I can get 5160 in close to 1/4" thickness so maybe I'll just forge it out for thinner blades. Last time I could only get a couple pieces of this though due to inventory. I picked up some 1080/1075 and that is great, but it was only available in 1/8" thickness. There was however, a whole pile of 1095 in stock of all different sizes. Also, I like the way the steel is so simple carbon and iron...it kinda goes well with my primitive style knives. I don't think they used 5160 or 01 back 200 years ago. They used basically whatever they could find and quenched in whatever worked well.
Matthew Gregory
Chief Executive in charge of Entertainment
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Possibly the most important aspect of an industrial quenchant that is most often overlooked in these debates. If that isn't a good enough reason to consider using a good industrial quenchant with 1095, then I don't know what is. After all, they might not be aircraft landing gear, but my knives will be of little value of they're not straight!
In anything that I wish to maintain a great cutting edge, it sure is for me! It's the primary reason I'd prefer a different steel choice for anything other than adornment reasons.
Perhaps not, but minimization of variables is the best way to increase your chance of success. Beating that steep nose, reducing or eliminating any trace of pearlite, reduction in the stress of the quench, all of these things are great reasons to use improved methods and materials. I'll bet these are all some of the reasons that Don prefers W2 quenched with Parks #50 over all the other means he's experienced, am I mistaken?
Naah.
Don't mean to single your post out like this, Nathan, as I suspect you and I are more likely to agree than not, but it did provide me with a perfect outline for my own views. Hope i don't offend!
Matthew Gregory
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I hear ya man, but they also drilled holes in your head to let the demons out if you had chronic migraines 200 years ago, or used catheters to inject mercury into your penis to 'cure' syphilis - ah, yes! the good ol' days...
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So in your guys opinion, would the Houghton Quench K be a good choice for 1095 then? I know I can probably get that at least. I really do want to elliminate the variables. Seems there are variables to consider with almost everything.
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I don't know about that. Ancient steel also had vanadium, chromium, manganese, cobalt and nickel.
If you really want to eliminate all the variables you can just quench 1095 with water. For thicker blades I never get warping, only with blades thinner than 1/8"
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R.C,
I hope you don't mind me teaming up with you on this question !
I'm still a newbie learning my way but I have read all the stickies and Vorhovens book. I'm still left with questions. Ones that to me are still ligitimate questions.
Is warp even a problem ? Meaning does it adversely affect the steel if you straighten a little warp right out of the quench or right out of the temper? IF so, how does that effect the performance of the blade ?
Is there another reason not to grind a blade thin before HT other than fear of warp or decarb?
Too those whose opinion is that your not making the best blade you can with 1095 unless your using a commercial quenchant- I'm taking this to mean that it's your opinion that reguardless of the situation (thickness of the blade especially) that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a full martinsite transformation using canola oil ???
I ask because to me this is NOT an apples to apples question. I can grind to any thickness I want before HT to compensate for the speed of the quench if it's going to achieve equal results.
I am currently using canola because of the cost. I spend all my available funds on tools and supplies and 5 gal. of parks just has not made it to the top of the list yet. I honestly mean no offense Deker but 1 gallon of Canola at Walmart = about 8 bucks. 5 gallons of Parks #50 to my door from Patriqq = Approx. $ 180
I am also aware that most would recommend using one of the other 10xx series steels but the question remains- Is it Possible or Impossible to get equal results to #50 using canola oil.
Thanks for input fellas- Josh
I hope you don't mind me teaming up with you on this question !
I'm still a newbie learning my way but I have read all the stickies and Vorhovens book. I'm still left with questions. Ones that to me are still ligitimate questions.
Is warp even a problem ? Meaning does it adversely affect the steel if you straighten a little warp right out of the quench or right out of the temper? IF so, how does that effect the performance of the blade ?
Is there another reason not to grind a blade thin before HT other than fear of warp or decarb?
Too those whose opinion is that your not making the best blade you can with 1095 unless your using a commercial quenchant- I'm taking this to mean that it's your opinion that reguardless of the situation (thickness of the blade especially) that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a full martinsite transformation using canola oil ???
I ask because to me this is NOT an apples to apples question. I can grind to any thickness I want before HT to compensate for the speed of the quench if it's going to achieve equal results.
I am currently using canola because of the cost. I spend all my available funds on tools and supplies and 5 gal. of parks just has not made it to the top of the list yet. I honestly mean no offense Deker but 1 gallon of Canola at Walmart = about 8 bucks. 5 gallons of Parks #50 to my door from Patriqq = Approx. $ 180
I am also aware that most would recommend using one of the other 10xx series steels but the question remains- Is it Possible or Impossible to get equal results to #50 using canola oil.
Thanks for input fellas- Josh
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I hear ya man, but they also drilled holes in your head to let the demons out if you had chronic migraines 200 years ago, or used catheters to inject mercury into your penis to 'cure' syphilis - ah, yes! the good ol' days...
I kinda like Tai's neo-tribal philophy though. I like primitive ways and techniques...even had a cool dream last night I was firing a musket.
Always wanted to shoot a black powder rifle, but never have. But anyways...I practice shamanism so maybe I'll put some special "magic" into my blades.