12c27... why not more love?

[chiral.grolim]

I've clearly said that the Tojiros are thicker behind the edge than the Victorinoxes were.

I can't find this in previous posts, only the comment about the latter being flexible like a fillet knife which (as I've clarified) has nothing to do with the edge.

I don't know the hardness of either. I'm not saying this about VG-10 in general, I'm simply saying this about Tojiro's VG-10.
...
I'll also point out that I'm not the only one who has experienced chipping with Tojiros. And the Victorinox line is used in quite a few professional kitchens in part because of their minimal upkeep (and, of course, low cost).

Tojiro VG10 is 60-61 Rc. http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro-knives.html
Victorinox uses X55CrMoV14 at 55-56Rc http://www.cutleryandmore.com/victorinox-forschner-fibrox/chefs-knife-p1754
ESEE/Becker uses 1.4116 at 56-58Rc http://eseeknives.com/esee-cooking-knives.htm

The VG10 shouldn't be chipping at that hardness and edge-angle, shouldn't be that brittle, or at least the other two should be blunting MUCH faster under the same conditions (e.g. wife hitting hard objects with blade) unless the softer knives are thicker behind the edge and less efficient cutters (what I expect from these Victorinox and ESEE blades). That's my issue: VG10 should always be an upgrade to these steels in durability, just not necessarily a noticeable one. A steel at 56Rc responds beautifully to steeling because it's more malleable and can be work-hardened (theory?) to perform, but at 60-61 Rc it should offer that performance without steeling. VG10 chipping in the kitchen within a 15-dps microbevel would make VG10 unsuitable for outdoor knives like the Fallkniven F1 and the Spydercos...

Here's Gator's reviews of VG10 blades including Tojiros: http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/steel/vg-10/index.shtml

I'll tell you what: I'll sharpen up some of the utility knives to eliminate the microbevel and in a month or so I'll upload pictures of the chipping. Some of it is visible to the naked eye, very noticeably so.

Yes please :thumbup: It's reports like these that keep me buying the cheap stuff (that and my bank account )

 

[B34NS]

as the title states... how come more people aren't using this steel? It is big in europe, but hasn't seem to have caught on over here as much. After doing a lot of fairly in depth searches for a replacement hard use stainless I took a chance on it a couple years ago and have made quite a few knives out of it and i couldn't be happier. This stuff gets scary sharp and holds an edge fairly respectably. More important it's easy to sharpen in the field, which i think is sooo much more important than having a steel that will hold an edge twice as long, but the normal user can't touch up him/herself. I sell mostly to military guys and they can go a long time in the bush without access to their lansky kit or something similar and one of the most common complaints they had was the inablilty to touch up some steels with rudimentary tools so i think this is almost the perfect steel for their needs. The last point and the big selling point for me was the toughness... this stuff is tougher than woodpecker lips and can take a beating that would put a lot of non stainless steels to shame, so i was wondering why it gets overlooked so often by makers.

Sandvik the company that produces the steel is based in Sweden, Morakniv is most famous for usage of the steel. Sweden doesn't export a whole lot of steel compared to other countries, hence why it stays pretty local in europe. Shipping steel isn't the cheapest thing to do especially with so many competitive steels from our US locality.

 

[rustyrazor]

Sandvik the company that produces the steel is based in Sweden, Morakniv is most famous for usage of the steel. Sweden doesn't export a whole lot of steel compared to other countries, hence why it stays pretty local in europe. Shipping steel isn't the cheapest thing to do especially with so many competitive steels from our US locality.

yep... i think that plays a lot into why it's not used an incredible amount. I decided to try it as a "better" fit for my type of knives over what i had been using, and the only place i found it at the time was admiral steel. I've made quite a few out of it and i think it's a great steel for a hard use knife.

On another note, can anyone tell me of a steel they think is "better" for use with the following requirements:
stainless (already have great non-stainless options)
takes a keen edge
easy to resharpen
tough.

...if the steel isn't better in all categories than 12c27 then I'm gonna stick with what i got for the models in question.

cheers

Royce

 

[Ankerson]

yep... i think that plays a lot into why it's not used an incredible amount. I decided to try it as a "better" fit for my type of knives over what i had been using, and the only place i found it at the time was admiral steel. I've made quite a few out of it and i think it's a great steel for a hard use knife.

On another note, can anyone tell me of a steel they think is "better" for use with the following requirements:
stainless (already have great non-stainless options)
takes a keen edge
easy to resharpen
tough.

...if the steel isn't better in all categories than 12c27 then I'm gonna stick with what i got for the models in question.

cheers

Royce

I have a very long list, where do you want me to start?

I know how to sharpen a knife so keen edges are trivial....

Most steels are easy to sharpen with what I use.

Tough has more to do with geometry.


So like I said a VERY LONG LIST..


That said I have seen knives in 1095 with edges that ended up looking like serrated edges with large chunks out of them, 12c27 edges that chipped out easy, while some others steels can take a lot more than expected due to marketing.

There are no definite answers in reality, it all comes down to the knife in question, what it needs to do and set the design accordingly.

 

[B34NS]

yep... i think that plays a lot into why it's not used an incredible amount. I decided to try it as a "better" fit for my type of knives over what i had been using, and the only place i found it at the time was admiral steel. I've made quite a few out of it and i think it's a great steel for a hard use knife.

On another note, can anyone tell me of a steel they think is "better" for use with the following requirements:
stainless (already have great non-stainless options)
takes a keen edge
easy to resharpen
tough.

...if the steel isn't better in all categories than 12c27 then I'm gonna stick with what i got for the models in question.

cheers

Royce

I hear that, if memory seves me right Bark River did a 12C727 run, but can't remember what models.

Ankerson's got a great point too about there being quite a few out there now with those qualities.

 

[rustyrazor]

yes... but, geometry aside. I want to talk steels and their characteristics. I had used 440c for years before I chose 12c27 to use for my hard use "military/tactical" style knives. with 440c I have used geometry to make the 440c tough enough to hammer through nails, a steel bunk bed frame, a .50cal ammo can and have done more batonning... I completely understand that geometry and heat treat come before most steels. I'm saying all else being equal, what steel does all of these things better than 12c27, with toughness being the primary attribute I am hoping for. My reason being a dull knife that finishes the mission is better than a sharp knife that breaks and doesn't make it home. so HT aside... I use Peters, and as most can assume they do a phenominal job. what stainless will fill my requirements better?

 

[Ankerson]

yes... but, geometry aside. I want to talk steels and their characteristics. I had used 440c for years before I chose 12c27 to use for my hard use "military/tactical" style knives. with 440c I have used geometry to make the 440c tough enough to hammer through nails, a steel bunk bed frame, a .50cal ammo can and have done more batonning... I completely understand that geometry and heat treat come before most steels. I'm saying all else being equal, what steel does all of these things better than 12c27, with toughness being the primary attribute I am hoping for. My reason being a dull knife that finishes the mission is better than a sharp knife that breaks and doesn't make it home. so HT aside... I use Peters, and as most can assume they do a phenominal job. what stainless will fill my requirements better?

It isn't going to matter what steel you use with that type of geometry, not really.

That's what I have been getting at here.

My reason being a dull knife that finishes the mission is better than a sharp knife that breaks and doesn't make it home.

What about a sharp knife that finishes the mission, wouldn't that be even better for the guys?

How about picking a steel that might actually hold an edge pretty well then adjust the geometry to what you need it to do.

If you got 440C to work then you have a ton of options out there stainless wise.

You would have to balance cost in there too though.

I know what steels I would use if I was putting my name on the blades, and I wouldn't worry at all about it.

They would have a well balanced tool that would actually be useful for what they need and I believe that's what got lost here, what the guys actually need.

A dull knife is just as useless as a broken one if they actually have to cut stuff and that's coming from a guy that was actually in the Military so i know what doesn't work or should I say isn't balanced performance wise.

 

[rustyrazor]

It isn't going to matter what steel you use with that type of geometry, not really.

That's what I have been getting at here.



What about a sharp knife that finishes the mission, wouldn't that be even better for the guys?

How about picking a steel that might actually hold an edge pretty well then adjust the geometry to what you need it to do.

If you got 440C to work then you have a ton of options out there stainless wise.

You would have to balance cost in there too though.

I know what steels I would use if I was putting my name on the blades, and I wouldn't worry at all about it.

They would have a well balanced tool that would actually be useful for what they need and I believe that's what got lost here, what the guys actually need.

A dull knife is just as useless as a broken one if they actually have to cut stuff and that's coming from a guy that was actually in the Military so i know what doesn't work or should I say isn't balanced performance wise.

That's why I picked the 12c27 over 440c... it does take and hold enough of an edge for what they need and can be resharpened, and since it's tougher, I can make the edge thinner than I did with the 440c without sacrificing toughness. There may be better options, but I don't know what they are. I'm in the military too and I see how the knives get used and treated, so for a no brainer "infantry proof" stainless steel, I cant think of one that is better. That's one of the things I've asked a few times on here and a lot of guys say the same thing, that there are better options, but nobody says what they are and why.

 

[Ankerson]

That's why I picked the 12c27 over 440c... it does take and hold enough of an edge for what they need and can be resharpened, and since it's tougher, I can make the edge thinner than I did with the 440c without sacrificing toughness. There may be better options, but I don't know what they are. I'm in the military too and I see how the knives get used and treated, so for a no brainer "infantry proof" stainless steel, I cant think of one that is better. That's one of the things I've asked a few times on here and a lot of guys say the same thing, that there are better options, but nobody says what they are and why.

Anything that is more balanced is going to cost more that what you are using now, likely double your current steel costs and that's not all that hard to do based on what you are using now.

So if you really want an answer and are really serious about it then PM me and I can give you some solid options to test, your costs will go up though, that's end cost to the guys you are selling to.

Don't try and tell me that 12c27 holds an edge, that insults my intelligence based on real experience with a variety of steels in the field.

And MOST guys aren't going to be carrying sharpening equipment with them to add on to what they are carrying now these days, that stuff will be back at base in a locker.

And going with a steel that has even less edge retention than 440C (Big Mistake) when there are other steels that are both tougher AND hold an edge longer than 440C makes no sense at all.

That's the opposite direction that one should have gone in so i am not sure who you were talking to when you made that change, you got some serious, seriously bad information, very bad information.

The guys would have been better off with something like 1080 or 1095 and have a sharpening stone included, attached to the sheath than what you ended up going with, that or just buying an EESE something or a Ka-Bar.

That said I can give you a phone number of someone to talk to that actually really knows what they are talking about if you actually want some good information and can point you in the right direction.

 

[arty]

There was a time when I hid my better knives from my wife and daughter. They knew how to kill an edge and destroy a blade. My daughter was especially good at this. For a time, I put the good knives in a drawer and had the Victorinox blades in the knife block.
I have a couple of Tojiro knives in VG10, a gyoto and a western deba. The small gyoto does not chip, and the deba is tough as nails. Edge geometry is different, and the deba has a nice thick blade with a heavy convex edge. I haven't touched up the edge since I got it many months ago. It has gone through cutting up whole chickens and splitting lots of lobster tails, without any loss of sharpness and zero chipping.
As has been said earlier, edge geometry matters, and the user matters also. My kitchen knives get used on wooden boards. You can take down an edge and destroy it very quickly on hard surfaces, like ceramic plates. Some cutting boards are very hard on knife edges.
The soft steel in the Victorinox knives need a sharpening after very few uses. By very few, I mean after perhaps using the knife a couple of times. I have kitchen knives in XHP, VG10, and S35V that will go through months of hard use (depending on the knife) without chipping and without needing to be sharpened. I can dull my S35V boning knife on poultry, but it will take some time. I gave my Victorinox boning knife to my daughter. She leaves it in a drawer with a pile of other knives and no edge guards.
I have a Spyderco 6" VG10 Yang utility knife that holds an edge at least 3X longer than my French 4Elephant Sabatiers or my Gerbers in 440C.
Edge holding is not so good when you clean the knives with a green Scotch Brite pad, making sure you slice up the abrasive every time.
I would rather have a paring knife in M2, like my Gerber Pixie, than a Victorinox in soft steel. The M2 blade holds an edge for a very long time.
Yes, you do have to sharpen knives differently, depending on use. I wouldn't use the same edge sharpening on a knife intended for heavy use (the Tojiro Western Deba) as on a knife used mainly for veggies, like the Tojiro Gyoto, or Northwoods Petty.

 

[inkynate]

From Sandvik

Sandvik 12C27 is Sandvik's most well-rounded knife steel with excellent edge performance allowing razor sharpness, high hardness, exceptional toughness and good corrosion resistance.

Sandvik 12C27 is our main knife steel for hand-held knives, high-end ice skate blades and ice drills.

http://www.smt.sandvik.com/en/produ...ife-steel/sandvik-knife-steels/sandvik-12c27/

If you want your blades to be:

-less expensive

-easy to grind

-easy to sharpen

-durable against "abuse"

-stainless

Then 12C27 looks pretty dang good. (Don't tell Jim it holds an edge though. He'll take it as a personal insult.)

 

[rustyrazor]

Anything that is more balanced is going to cost more that what you are using now, likely double your current steel costs and that's not all that hard to do based on what you are using now.

So if you really want an answer and are really serious about it then PM me and I can give you some solid options to test, your costs will go up though, that's end cost to the guys you are selling to.

Don't try and tell me that 12c27 holds an edge, that insults my intelligence based on real experience with a variety of steels in the field.

And MOST guys aren't going to be carrying sharpening equipment with them to add on to what they are carrying now these days, that stuff will be back at base in a locker.

And going with a steel that has even less edge retention than 440C (Big Mistake) when there are other steels that are both tougher AND hold an edge longer than 440C makes no sense at all.

That's the opposite direction that one should have gone in so i am not sure who you were talking to when you made that change, you got some serious, seriously bad information, very bad information.

The guys would have been better off with something like 1080 or 1095 and have a sharpening stone included, attached to the sheath than what you ended up going with, that or just buying an EESE something or a Ka-Bar.

That said I can give you a phone number of someone to talk to that actually really knows what they are talking about if you actually want some good information and can point you in the right direction.

PM forthcoming on the more balanced steels... I do have to give the forum a shot at seeing my thought process on 12c27 in response to this one. Caveat: to clarify, I do use a lot of other stainless for different reasons and when requested. it's not my only stainless option offered.

-12c27 is MUCH tougher than 440c which is important to make sure the tool can hold up to use... there are ones that are tougher and hold a better edge than 440c for sure, but toughness and ease of sharpening were paramount.

- the fact that guys don't always have sharpening equipment is part of the reason that I chose the 12c27 as any resourceful user can sharpen it on a rock if they had to.

-1080/1095 aren't stainless and that takes them out of the equation, and from all I've read 12c27 will give 1095 a run for it's money in most areas so it's a good option for stainless in a hard use knife where edge holding isn't the priority... and I also can include a stone as easy as someone could with either of those steels.

 

[Ankerson]

PM forthcoming on the more balanced steels... I do have to give the forum a shot at seeing my thought process on 12c27 in response to this one. Caveat: to clarify, I do use a lot of other stainless for different reasons and when requested. it's not my only stainless option offered.

-12c27 is MUCH tougher than 440c which is important to make sure the tool can hold up to use... there are ones that are tougher and hold a better edge than 440c for sure, but toughness and ease of sharpening were paramount.

- the fact that guys don't always have sharpening equipment is part of the reason that I chose the 12c27 as any resourceful user can sharpen it on a rock if they had to.

-1080/1095 aren't stainless and that takes them out of the equation, and from all I've read 12c27 will give 1095 a run for it's money in most areas so it's a good option for stainless in a hard use knife where edge holding isn't the priority... and I also can include a stone as easy as someone could with either of those steels.

I got it, PM sent back. :thumbup:

Sharpening on a rock is complete BS though, I will say that much, especially for guys that are in a combat zone that could get picked off looking for some rock to sharpen their dull freaking butter knife.

Better to have a knife that won't need sharpening most likely while in the field, or stay usable until they can get back to base than to have a butter knife out in the field.

Been there, done that more than I can count when I was in, having a dull knife in the field isn't fun or useful at all.

 

[Ankerson]

From Sandvik



If you want your blades to be:

-less expensive

-easy to grind

-easy to sharpen

-durable against "abuse"

-stainless

Then 12C27 looks pretty dang good. (Don't tell Jim it holds an edge though. He'll take it as a personal insult.)

Sounds great for mass produced $10 kitchen knives, other than that... Well.....

Would have to be easy to sharpen as one will be doing that an awful lot, at least I have to with my 12c27 kitchen knives I have, they go dull very fast.

 

[sodak]

PM forthcoming on the more balanced steels... I do have to give the forum a shot at seeing my thought process on 12c27 in response to this one. Caveat: to clarify, I do use a lot of other stainless for different reasons and when requested. it's not my only stainless option offered.

-12c27 is MUCH tougher than 440c which is important to make sure the tool can hold up to use... there are ones that are tougher and hold a better edge than 440c for sure, but toughness and ease of sharpening were paramount.

- the fact that guys don't always have sharpening equipment is part of the reason that I chose the 12c27 as any resourceful user can sharpen it on a rock if they had to.

-1080/1095 aren't stainless and that takes them out of the equation, and from all I've read 12c27 will give 1095 a run for it's money in most areas so it's a good option for stainless in a hard use knife where edge holding isn't the priority... and I also can include a stone as easy as someone could with either of those steels.

If you really want to give these guys a great steel for hard use, then give them CPM 3V at 57 - 58 HRC and coat the blade. It will be light years ahead of 12c27 in all your categories, and rust won't be an issue.

As for sharpening it on a rock, I seriously doubt that anyone in your customer base could (or would) actually do it. It takes a lot of skill. If they are that skilled, then sharpening CPM 3V won't be a problem for them at all anyway.

 

[Ankerson]

If you really want to give these guys a great steel for hard use, then give them CPM 3V at 57 - 58 HRC and coat the blade. It will be light years ahead of 12c27 in all your categories, and rust won't be an issue.

As for sharpening it on a rock, I seriously doubt that anyone in your customer base could (or would) actually do it. It takes a lot of skill. If they are that skilled, then sharpening CPM 3V won't be a problem for them at all anyway.

There are some solid proven steels out there for those types of uses that have been used and proven over the years, why not stick with proven performers.

3V would actually be a good choice.

Personally if those customers are really that bad I would use A2 and set the geometry/grind/HT to that type of extreme use, coat the blades and forget about it.

I would be seriously surprised if anyone broke one without actually trying to break it, sledgehammer/vice type of thing.

If they want a sharpened pry bar that's what they would get.

 

[marthinus]

For those who might be interested I have something for them to try, not for the faint at heart though.

They will need some leather gloves, good heavy ones are best.

1) Good down to the local hardware store and pick up some 175# heavy duty zip ties, they are cheap, pack of 10 18" ones for around $7 or so, the flat ones.

2) Get you a nice piece of wood to cut on, you will need it.

3) Put the zip tie on the wood flat and take that knife (whatever knife) and try and cut through the zip tie, your going to have to push cut through it. This is were the gloves come in because you will need to put your palm on the spine of the blade to make the cut and it's going to take a lot of pressure to do it.

Started off with a video but ran out of memory.

Knife is a custom JD Ellis Lannys Clip out of 14C28N.

[video=youtube;zZABrO0KPMY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZABrO0KPMY&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Here is a picture of the knife and edge afterwards. Still able to cut phone book paper with no hang ups.

Now what?

 

[rustyrazor]

If you really want to give these guys a great steel for hard use, then give them CPM 3V at 57 - 58 HRC and coat the blade. It will be light years ahead of 12c27 in all your categories, and rust won't be an issue.

As for sharpening it on a rock, I seriously doubt that anyone in your customer base could (or would) actually do it. It takes a lot of skill. If they are that skilled, then sharpening CPM 3V won't be a problem for them at all anyway.

k gents... of course 3v will be a great choice (if it were stainless) So is 80Crv2, O1 and 8670m... but they're not stainless either. For stainless, I do have Elmax, M390, cpm154, CPM S35VN and a few others on my shelves. That's not what I was getting at from the start of this thread. The point of the whole sharpening on a rock thing was to emphasize that it was an easy, maintenance free steel that can be abused a bit and still come back home. I am trying to give the guys a blade that will be reliable and tough... edge holding was not my priority for the military knife guys, it was toughness. If it does get dull, it's easy to sharpen on whatever you have at hand. The guys can have all other steels if they want them, but for a base knife that I'm trying to keep the price down on and not sacrifice toughness, I chose 12c27. Was I wrong? and if so, why?

 

[pinnah]

The guys would have been better off with something like 1080 or 1095 and have a sharpening stone included, attached to the sheath than what you ended up going with, that or just buying an EESE something or a Ka-Bar.

??

What do you see as the significant difference between 1095 and 12C27 or 420HC at similar RC levels?

The only difference I can detect in use is that at 56Rc or lower, the stainless can get gummy on the stone and prone to forming a wire edge. At 58Rc, I find them indistinguishable (other than the patina that forms on 1095). I've never used either 12C27 or 420HC at 59 Rc or higher but the 1095 I've used at that hardness starts to get chippy.

I'm fine with this discussion to go back circling the drain with the debate of why steels like S30V or 3V are better than 12C27 or 1095. I"ve said my peace (some folks prefer the latter).

But I'd like to hear something more about why 12C27, 1095 and 420HC shouldn't be thought of as forming a single performance group.

Based on my experience and everything I've read, my one line desciption of 12C27 would be, "Closely approximates the performance of 1095 at reasonable Rc levels between 56Rc and 58Rc."

Another way to say this is, one would choose 12C27 for exactly the same reasons one would choose 1095, only without the problem of rust.

 

[Ankerson]

k gents... of course 3v will be a great choice (if it were stainless) So is 80Crv2, O1 and 8670m... but they're not stainless either. For stainless, I do have Elmax, M390, cpm154, CPM S35VN and a few others on my shelves. That's not what I was getting at from the start of this thread. The point of the whole sharpening on a rock thing was to emphasize that it was an easy, maintenance free steel that can be abused a bit and still come back home. I am trying to give the guys a blade that will be reliable and tough... edge holding was not my priority for the military knife guys, it was toughness. If it does get dull, it's easy to sharpen on whatever you have at hand. The guys can have all other steels if they want them, but for a base knife that I'm trying to keep the price down on and not sacrifice toughness, I chose 12c27. Was I wrong? and if so, why?

Well, when I was in the USMC from 82-86 I carried a USMC Ka-Bar and as we all know they are 1095.

I didn't break it and I never saw anyone else break theirs either and as far as rust goes I didn't have any issues with it even on the 4 deployments I went on while I was in.

USMC Ka-Bars aren't exactly thick and heavy so I am not so sure what has changed between when I was in and today as far as actual knife use goes, maybe marketing and YT videos...

That said I would still use the same knife today if I was in, no reason to change as I know it worked fine before, I would have to get a new one because my old one is long gone.

Sadly the only good knife I have left today from when I was young is a Case 223-5, my old hunting knife.