12c27... why not more love?

[marthinus]

Could you perhaps direct me to one of those makers? I'm very curious as to what those steels can do when properly hardened.

Sure thing. Sending you a PM.

 

[marthinus]

Cost follows along with Carbide content, the lower the percentage the lower the cost in general.

Generally yes, but there is always exceptions to the norm, for example Nitrobe-77. A low carbide steel where powdered metallurgy is used with a very high emphasis on purity and corrosion resistance.

Z-FiNit Nitrogen Stainless Steel is $12 cheaper than S90V but more expensive than S30V but it is a low carbide steel.

On another note:

I personally feel there is no right or wrong comparing higher carbide steels to lower carbide steels, both have their place and all needs to be heat treated and grind accordingly to its intended design.

It depends on what you want out of your steel and catering an edge for your uses correctly.

 

[GermanyChris]

Hijacking the thread for a minute...

Jackknife, that makes sense. I also remember in the 70's, manufacturers of high end bikes always joining the tubes with brazed lugs - the opinions at that time were that welding made a weak joint. Now all I see are Tig welded joints. I realize I haven't kept up with the technology, but did something change?

Thanks!



Since I just hijacked your thread, I'll try to reply directly. The steel that I would try would be VG 10. I've had really good luck with it, and it's not terribly expensive.

Lugs or not depends one the people you hang out with and the price you're willing to pay. Lugs went out of fashion because of weight every 250# weekend warrior needs a 14# bicycle to leisurely ride the roads in kit. TIG welded steel is lighter than lugged steel and is easier to produce, there are other factors that do play into it though like you can buy lugs for the newish over sides steel tubes. Welding also will allow more shapes and more flexibility in geometry and the like. There are may heated debates in the bike world about this topic but for me it's decided I own 2 welded bikes because you can't lug the Ti that forms my Legend, and you can't lug around the suspension on my Blur.

Jim, I have the utmost respect for your opinion and I really appreciate you're input on this thread in particular. My only point of contention is that although a lot of real knife nuts can sharpen these tools well without the expensive stuff or sending them away, a lot of soldiers simply aren't that good at that aspect of cutlery. My market is primarily military and while the misconception is that military guys know knives inside and out... it's just not the case. Most of them end up with something just as useless as everybody else and for the same reasons... it looks cool or it was advertised by an "expert" on knives. That being the case, they use and abuse these things for everything under the sun and then a few other things that you would be amazed to see a knife doing... 16 years and i still get a chuckle now and then at what new idea someone has come up with for a use. All this to say, is that although i offer other steel grades, I base my choice of 12c27 off the old "infantry proof" idea and that i want someone that buys one of mine to be able to give it some abuse, be able to sharpen it himself and trust it to be there when he's done abusing it till the next time.

Respectfully

Royce

I was an Infantryman and agree 99% of us don't know a thing about knives nor will we ever most likely. I then, and still today want a knife that I can dig holes with, pry stuff, cut stuff to include sand bags, hammer stuff, and scrape stuff. I care not at all what it's made of nor whom makes it as long as I can keep the rust off using a rag and oil for my M4 I'm good to go. I'm not carrying a stone with me on mission no matter how long because I have WAY more important stuff to carry and it weighs a ton. When I was in Afghanistan I had a 7th group guy give me a Benchmade auto and it did all that for the rest of that tour and the two follow on tours. I finally convinced my wife to let me get a decent knife again and it's a Benchmade so I fit your example.

 

[pinnah]

Who is we?

Members of Blade Forums that are hopefully more educated than the typical Flea Market or Wal Mart shoppers.

What is mainstream?

Mainstream to us here on Blade Forums and what we typically see in the typical Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, ZT etc knives that are generally talked about here.

Now outside of BF....

Yeah talking about the general population and what they buy?

Yes, most of what is sold out there by a very large percentage is complete garbage and most of us here on BF are well aware of that fact.

But as people get more educated they tend to find a forum like BF and gain more information so they can separate themselves from the masses and enjoy our hobby.

I would hope you aren't associating BF members with Flea Market and Wal-Mart Shoppers.

I don't think that there is a "farmer/laborer knife market". There are those who know knives and those who don't. Those who don't know knives will use whatever is "cheap and looked good", usually buying a brand to test and then sticking with it if it works, then they'll do what they can to keep/maintain an edge which sometimes is nothing at all. They don't want to spend time or money on these tools. Those who do know knives will look for specific aspects/qualities including steel-type and hardness, will buy different brands to test and reject those that do not work - this usually results in a collection and more expensive knives . They don't mind spending time or money on these tools, they don't mind sharpening. A person in the latter group might appreciate Opinel for its elegance and thin geometry, it's traditional character and ease of maintenance. A person in the former group will appreciate Opinel because it's cheap - ease of sharpening doesn't enter the equation unless they actually sharpen their own knives and many do not, as you note. By the way, I should stress that this has nothing to do with income - I know "rich" folk that only buy cheap knives and "poor" folk that buy quality because they recognize it.

So when marketing knives to specific groups, e.g. general military personnel, the primary attributes are durability (tough), ease of maintenance (stainless or coated), and cheap, which is why you'll find 420HC Bucks and Gerbers and AUS6 or 8 Cold Steel and SOGs, and 1095 Becker/Kabars mass-produced for such groups. What steel should you choose if you need a knife to be cheap, to hold a decent edge (i.e. >55 RC), and endure heavy abuse without being properly sharpened?

When marketing knives to better informed or better-funded enthusiasts within a group, e.g. military personnel looking for a better knife than what's available at the PX or local store, you start to see more 154CM, 440C, S30V, D2, CPM-3V, etc., more expensive alloys. Such knives need to hold a good edge for a long time and endure some abuse but expect to be sharpened from time to time.

Buck and Gerber are on to this and now offer a lot of models in both 420HC and S30V.

I've spent most of my career in engineering but have done some stints in marketing and product management, so I have some opinions on this.

Ankerson, I think your comments reflect the dominant attitudes of the BF General forum, and to a large extent, the Maintenance forum.

But your comments are very much out line of with the attitudes you will encounter on the Becker, Buck and Outdoors sub-forum. Those people will generally consider themselves to be dedicated knife lovers (enough to be posting on a knife forum, after all), knowledgeable and, most specifically, they typically have an above average (compared to the general public) ability to sharpen and maintain knives - enough to be able to put a working edge on one any way.

Chiram, from this former marketer's point of view, you are making the same mistake. There aren't two groups: those who know knives and like your preferred more expensive steels and those who don't know knives and only buy the cheapest stuff. There is a 3rd group. This group knows knives, are willing to spend money on knives but they prefer fine-carbide steels as giving them a better balance of performance characteristics.

Please note. I'm not saying that medium/large carbide steels are bad or that you guys are wrong for liking them. Quite the contrary.

Just noting that significant numbers of educated knife enthusiasts who regularly post to (other parts of) BladeForums (that you may not be as involved in) who have a strong preference for fine carbide steels.

Your continued characterizations of these types of knife enthusiasts as uneducated, or lacking in sharpening skill or lacking in funds just doesn't line up with the market realities we see in the other sub-forums.

 

[pinnah]

I personally feel there is no right or wrong comparing higher carbide steels to lower carbide steels, both have their place and all needs to be heat treated and grind accordingly to its intended design.

It depends on what you want out of your steel and catering an edge for your uses correctly.

This.

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson, I think your comments reflect the dominant attitudes of the BF General forum, and to a large extent, the Maintenance forum.

But your comments are very much out line of with the attitudes you will encounter on the Becker, Buck and Outdoors sub-forum. Those people will generally consider themselves to be dedicated knife lovers (enough to be posting on a knife forum, after all), knowledgeable and, most specifically, they typically have an above average (compared to the general public) ability to sharpen and maintain knives - enough to be able to put a working edge on one any way.

I try and stay realistic on my views and based on what my extensive testing has shown over the years, being realistic is the key I think.

The only time I usually start posting in a thread is when things start going sideways and away from reality or just bad information starts to get spread around like it's facts.

That or fairy tails and other assorted stories or supposed miracles that just aren't possible for various reasons.

That said I do understand people do like certain things and they like to talk about them in a good way, we all do that and that's human nature.

Every once in awhile I see a post or something that after reading it I just start laughing because it's just so far out in never, never land that I just sit here and think "did that person really just post that?"

 

[Insipid Moniker]

One quick question for the worthies inhabiting this thread. Are higher carbide steels particularly advantageous in the kitchen? I ask because, in my experience, edge stability, particularly with extremely acute geometry, seems to overshadow wear resistance and especially lateral toughness when I'm cooking. Carbide content seems geared more towards abrasion resistance, but the most abrasive thing my kitchen knives typically encounter is my cutting board.

This is based on fairly small sample sizes, but it seems to me that high carbide steels don't necessarily hold their initial, razor edge that much longer than other steels, but that they settle into a nice working edge that lasts a very, very long time. But what I want in the kitchen is that initial razor edge. Essentially, am I experiencing user error in one form or another, or do high carbide steels not have the same edge (forgive my pun) in the kitchen that they do in day-to-day cutting tasks?

 

[Ankerson]

One quick question for the worthies inhabiting this thread. Are higher carbide steels particularly advantageous in the kitchen? I ask because, in my experience, edge stability, particularly with extremely acute geometry, seems to overshadow wear resistance and especially lateral toughness when I'm cooking. Carbide content seems geared more towards abrasion resistance, but the most abrasive thing my kitchen knives typically encounter is my cutting board.

This is based on fairly small sample sizes, but it seems to me that high carbide steels don't necessarily hold their initial, razor edge that much longer than other steels, but that they settle into a nice working edge that lasts a very, very long time. But what I want in the kitchen is that initial razor edge. Essentially, am I experiencing user error in one form or another, or do high carbide steels not have the same edge (forgive my pun) in the kitchen that they do in day-to-day cutting tasks?

Depends on a lot of different factors really.

I use High Carbide Steels in the Kitchen everyday and can tell a huge difference in them and some of the others.

I use coarse edges in the kitchen (400-600 grit) and generally keep the edge geometry in the 10 DPS range, and that's on knives that are in the .005" behind the edge range.

They stay VERY sharp for a very long time and I touch them up as needed to keep them that way, touch ups aren't needed all that often though in comparison, usually in the 8 to 1 ratio.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Depends on a lot of different factors really.

I use High Carbide Steels in the Kitchen everyday and can tell a huge difference in them and some of the others.

I use coarse edges in the kitchen (400-600 grit) and generally keep the edge geometry in the 10 DPS range, and that's on knives that are in the .005" behind the edge range.

They stay VERY sharp for a very long time and I touch them up as needed to keep them that way, touch ups aren't needed all that often though in comparison, usually in the 8 to 1 ratio.

Sounds like I may need to have a knife or two reground and thin out the edge. My chef knife is in S35VN, but I find it getting outperformed by AEB-L. Given what you've said I think it's a matter of changing the geometry.

 

[Ankerson]

Sounds like I may need to have a knife or two reground and thin out the edge. My chef knife is in S35VN, but I find it getting outperformed by AEB-L. Given what you've said I think it's a matter of changing the geometry.

S35VN should hold an edge very well for kitchen use, maybe it's more edge finish.

I use CPM 154 in kitchen also and it will hold an edge with a coarse grit around 320 to 400 for a long time.

I also use some of the other steels like 420J2 and 12C27 etc and it's almost funny how fast they lose an edge.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Chiram, from this former marketer's point of view, you are making the same mistake. There aren't two groups: those who know knives and like your preferred more expensive steels and those who don't know knives and only buy the cheapest stuff. There is a 3rd group. This group knows knives, are willing to spend money on knives but they prefer fine-carbide steels as giving them a better balance of performance characteristics.

Please note. I'm not saying that medium/large carbide steels are bad or that you guys are wrong for liking them. Quite the contrary.

Just noting that significant numbers of educated knife enthusiasts who regularly post to (other parts of) BladeForums (that you may not be as involved in) who have a strong preference for fine carbide steels.

Your continued characterizations of these types of knife enthusiasts as uneducated, or lacking in sharpening skill or lacking in funds just doesn't line up with the market realities we see in the other sub-forums.

In my post you'll note that I specified how folk in the "know knives" group might buy Opinels and Moras for specific reasons... but if they buy them because they think they take a finer edge easier or hold it longer or can endure more stress than knives in other steels then they are grossly misinformed (uneducated?). They tried one and it works for them, and other aspects of the design hold their favor... and they're cheap. Just like Becker/ESEE users who buy knives in 1095 at 56 Rc - these tools can neither take nor hold as good of an edge as a Buck in 420HC at 58-59Rc, but maybe they present higher impact toughness which is of dubious value. What performance "balance" do they think they have found? What if the model was offered in CPM-3V, a steel that is superior in every way, would they switch? The "balance" must include price - getting sufficient value for the price. It's not about how much money you have, it's about what you are willing to pay for specific aspects of design including steel-type and the advantages/disadvantages associated therewith.

From my reading in the Buck and Traditionals areas, steel-type and performance is not usually what they are looking for, they are focused on other aspects of design, often handle-materials and historical relevance, collectors appeal. Here's a question, how popular is the "scandi" grind among the outdoor subforum? It is a terrible geometry for most cutting tasks, be they woodcraft or kitchenwork, yet it still holds sway among some groups, why? I've read people arguing that they use it because of its strength...

I should note that I own very few knives in PM steels, most are SR101 (52100) or 420HC. Why? Because those are decent steels that support the edges I give them for the performance I require at a price I can afford (especially given my habit of buying knives every month or two ) and other aspects of the designs appeal to me. I agree with marthinus as well, one must select geometry and steel-type to match intended use. If the advantages gained by switching to a higher carbide PM steel are marginal (i.e. not noticeable to the user), then it makes no sense especially given the probable increase in manufacturing costs = increased price to consumer. But there are still those who will purchase INFI and CPM-3V over 1095 despite the price increase. Did I achieve a better "balance" via the performance advantage offered by a pricier RatManDu vs a comparable but cheaper Becker or ESEE? I think so. What about buying the cheaper 420HC vs S30V Buck 110? I'd rather have the S30V, but I can get by with 420HC

 

[calc]

Your continued characterizations of these types of knife enthusiasts as uneducated, or lacking in sharpening skill or lacking in funds just doesn't line up with the market realities we see in the other sub-forums.

I look at it this way:

Is any given Mercedes a higher quality car than, say, a Civic? Yes, I don't know too many people that would argue otherwise. But the Mercedes is going to take more effort and more money to maintain annually than the Civic. And for some people, not only is that not worth the extra cost, it's just not worth the headache either. So which is truly the superior car? It's completely subjective based on what your expectations and end uses are.

Similarly, is something in a high carbide steel worth it? Someone with money and time might say yes. Someone who wants value and low effort upkeep might say differently.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Sounds like I may need to have a knife or two reground and thin out the edge. My chef knife is in S35VN, but I find it getting outperformed by AEB-L. Given what you've said I think it's a matter of changing the geometry.

S35VN is pretty close to S30V, and even in abrasive rope-cutting you'll note in Jim's thread that an AEB-L edge with proper geometry (thin) could outlast S30V if the latter has poor geometry for the task. Geometry is king :thumbup: If the edges have different finishes on top of that (= another type of geometric difference), then you aren't comparing steel types yet. What hardness is each blade at?

 

[Hacked]

I try and stay realistic on my views and based on what my extensive testing has shown over the years, being realistic is the key I think.

The only time I usually start posting in a thread is when things start going sideways and away from reality or just bad information starts to get spread around like it's facts.

That or fairy tails and other assorted stories or supposed miracles that just aren't possible for various reasons.

That said I do understand people do like certain things and they like to talk about them in a good way, we all do that and that's human nature.

Every once in awhile I see a post or something that after reading it I just start laughing because it's just so far out in never, never land that I just sit here and think "did that person really just post that?"

I have to agree that your post hint at you look down upon anyone perfering simpler steels. I myself have come to appreciate them, and feel they have their place just like more complex ones with high wear resistance. I use carbide tipped saw blades, and a carbide bladed paint scraper. At the same time I use a SAK daily. I like that it doesn't have the poor edge geometry like many modern folders and that I can maintain the edge with my coffee mug at work. For my needs the steel is adequate and something else would simply be overkill. Mostly I think it is because I have found it to be easier to maintain the type of edge that I prefer on them.

 

[Ankerson]

I have to agree that your post hint at you look down upon anyone perfering simpler steels. I myself have come to appreciate them, and feel they have their place just like more complex ones with high wear resistance. I use carbide tipped saw blades, and a carbide bladed paint scraper. At the same time I use a SAK daily. I like that it doesn't have the poor edge geometry like many modern folders and that I can maintain the edge with my coffee mug at work. For my needs the steel is adequate and something else would simply be overkill. Mostly I think it is because I have found it to be easier to maintain the type of edge that I prefer on them.

I don't look down at them at all, I used them for decades myself and still do these days sometimes.

So I am more than well aware of what they will do and not do however realistically.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

S35VN is pretty close to S30V, and even in abrasive rope-cutting you'll note in Jim's thread that an AEB-L edge with proper geometry could outlast S30V. Geometry is king :thumbup: If the edges have different finishes on top of that (= another type of geometric difference), then you aren't comparing steel types yet. What hardness is each blade at?

Hard to say. Both are production knives and claim 58-60 rockwell. I've sharpened both, but I finished on a 6000 grit stone, so I'm wondering if I may see some advantages if I stop at around a 400 grit on the S35VN.

 

[sodak]

I have to agree that your post hint at you look down upon anyone perfering simpler steels. I myself have come to appreciate them, and feel they have their place just like more complex ones with high wear resistance. I use carbide tipped saw blades, and a carbide bladed paint scraper. At the same time I use a SAK daily. I like that it doesn't have the poor edge geometry like many modern folders and that I can maintain the edge with my coffee mug at work. For my needs the steel is adequate and something else would simply be overkill. Mostly I think it is because I have found it to be easier to maintain the type of edge that I prefer on them.

I think we are just trying to keep it factual. I see posts that state that these steels have an edge that lasts twice as long but cost 10x more (or something like that), I feel that a correction is needed. It has been shown that some of them last 20x longer and are much less than 20x more expensive. So the value is there, if you are looking for edge retention. But it might not be worth the cost to some people, and that's fine, but let's keep it realistic about the price/performance ratio.

I only use the simpler stainless steels in my kitchen. My family, despite many warnings and lectures, will drop knives in the sink, soak them, put them in the dishwasher, etc. No knife's edge can stand that treatment. Plus, I don't value kitchen knives very much, so I'm fine with a cheaper stainless.

 

[Hacked]

I think we are just trying to keep it factual. I see posts that state that these steels have an edge that lasts twice as long but cost 10x more (or something like that), I feel that a correction is needed. It has been shown that some of them last 20x longer and are much less than 20x more expensive. So the value is there, if you are looking for edge retention. But it might not be worth the cost to some people, and that's fine, but let's keep it realistic about the price/performance ratio.

I only use the simpler stainless steels in my kitchen. My family, despite many warnings and lectures, will drop knives in the sink, soak them, put them in the dishwasher, etc. No knife's edge can stand that treatment. Plus, I don't value kitchen knives very much, so I'm fine with a cheaper stainless.

I have no delusions about the difference in performance. The cost is a difficult argument however. If you've ever purchased steel you have no doubt noticed the the prices go up noticeably. The steel is likely to require a more specific heat treatment and cause more wear and tear on materials during the manufacturing process. All of this increases cost. A Mora, Opinel, or Victorinox can all be had for $10 - $20 so we'll call it $15. Finding a knife for twice that or even three times with medium or high carbide steel that has good edge geometry can be a challenge. Its definitely been a limiting factor for the steels I have tried in a knife. Not all of us are fortunate to have large budgets to spend on our sharps, thankfully there are good choices out there that are compromises but still very solid as knives.

Also can I see an example of the 20x longer lasting? That is impressive, I'm not being sarcastic I really would like to see that demonstrated.

Also it is the same for me with kitchen knives, I've moved to Victorinox as I have found them to work well in my household.

 

[sodak]

I have no delusions about the difference in performance. The cost is a difficult argument however. If you've ever purchased steel you have no doubt noticed the the prices go up noticeably. The steel is likely to require a more specific heat treatment and cause more wear and tear on materials during the manufacturing process. All of this increases cost. A Mora, Opinel, or Victorinox can all be had for $10 - $20 so we'll call it $15. Finding a knife for twice that or even three times with medium or high carbide steel that has good edge geometry can be a challenge. Its definitely been a limiting factor for the steels I have tried in a knife. Not all of us are fortunate to have large budgets to spend on our sharps, thankfully there are good choices out there that are compromises but still very solid as knives.

That's a good point, I agree with you. As I type this, I have a Buck Vantage (420 HC) clipped to my front pocket, and a Vic Climber in my other. I enjoy reading Unimog reviews in various 4x4 blogs and forums, even though I'll never be able to afford one.

 

[rustyrazor]

I think we are just trying to keep it factual. I see posts that state that these steels have an edge that lasts twice as long but cost 10x more (or something like that), I feel that a correction is needed. It has been shown that some of them last 20x longer and are much less than 20x more expensive. So the value is there, if you are looking for edge retention. But it might not be worth the cost to some people, and that's fine, but let's keep it realistic about the price/performance ratio.

I only use the simpler stainless steels in my kitchen. My family, despite many warnings and lectures, will drop knives in the sink, soak them, put them in the dishwasher, etc. No knife's edge can stand that treatment. Plus, I don't value kitchen knives very much, so I'm fine with a cheaper stainless.

on the first point, i agree... facts are facts. Some steels will last 15-20 times longer at maybe only 2-3 times the price and that is a great deal if the primary focus is edge holding. That being said it's a balance and my original point of this whole thread was that if a particular steel isn't going to take abuse or cannot be resharpened by some of the barbarians that end up as owners, I'm the one they complain to when they say "you're knife is a piece of junk, i chipped the blade opening a crate and i can't resharpen it. That's why I sometimes favor the simpler steels and purpose choose them in many cases. Great for me that they are cheaper as well and great for the most likely abusive end user.

On your second point, unless a customer is a little more informed and requests a particular steel, knowing it's limitations and benefits I only use simpler steels for the army guys too and for the same reason. You think wives and kids are hard on things in the kitchen, you gotta see some of these guys with their knives. It's amazing what a simple knife can be asked to do outside the realm of cutting... and even more amazing how sour someone can get when they break their tip off or chip the edge trying to do something rediculous.