12c27... why not more love?

12C27 is not common, the only reason I got to try it is because Buck "Upgraded" the steel on a Vantage Select I purchased. Boy was I surprised when I opened the box and found the BOS logo and noticed the steel. Worked great for me, kept a really fine edge.
 
Years ago this was done by Jerry Busse:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/85283-New-old-pics!-Busse-9-Test-at-the-Blade-Show

Jerry Busse has recently ventured into the production knife world with the introduction of his Busse Combat Basics series, a new line of fixed blades featuring a modified version of the INFI Steel. When tested at the 1999 Blade Show, a 1" portion of the blade was able to make 2771 cuts through a 1" hemp rope without going dull; we just ran out of rope!
Click Here to read more about the Basic #9

The standard Combat Basic #9 features a satin finish and retails for $258.95, but we are bringing you a Black Coated version for the low price of $219.95.

Included with each knife will be a Kydex Sheath with legstrap made by High Desert Holsters, and a free BladeForums.com Tshirt!

Do a search on Busse and visit the Blade Show archive for more info on this incredible knife.

Click Here To Visit the Store and Order!

Here are some pics taken at the Blade Show.

Jerry cut'n away!


Still shaving after 2,000 cuts!

Still slicing paper at 2,500 like butter!

Lori counting each cut with me.

2,771 cuts and we run out of rope. How much rope can this thing cut?

Who knows.....


------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

Another test on Nitrobe-77.

[video=youtube;HHQnl498f9Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHQnl498f9Q[/video]
 
Last edited:
I have never seen any American company push Sandvik 14c28n like Kershaw. I own four knives with 14c28n blades and have been very happy with three out of the four knives. It is quickly becoming my favorite budget steel. I know that both 12c and 14c steel are both made by the same company. Anyone know the difference between the two?


BTW, ebidis, you should see the wonderfull edge on the Griptillian that I recieved in the mail today. The guy did a great job on the edge. Nice knife,too.


Thanks for the knife, Jerry

Hey Lynn,
Your welcome again, glad you like it. Thanks for the compliment, I like to think I do pretty well with my edges. I can't believe it got there that fast.

Enjoy the knife. :thumbup:
 
as the title states... how come more people aren't using this steel?......The last point and the big selling point for me was the toughness... this stuff is tougher than woodpecker lips and can take a beating that would put a lot of non stainless steels to shame

I agree. I was only referring to the folder market in my comment, wasn't really thinking about woods fixed blades, even though I own several with 1095 or A2, and love them.

Okay, well this is where you need to be either more specific or address both folder and fixed application. Let's especially consider this when toughness is a touted attribute by the OP. IMO if with a folding knife you are doing something that requires high toughness you should not be using a folding knife. I use my folding knives for cutting where edge retention is much more important.

I'm not even going to argue that 20x longer is part of the equation... or that they are easier to resharpen. I don't know... I haven't used every stainless steel in the world to be able to dispute that fact. My point being, for a hard use blade for real world use, I think it's hard to beat. will any of those "20x longer" blades keep up with it in toughness? and if they could hold a candle how much more do you have to pay for one by comparison?

Okay, so lets bring cost into the equation with toughness and edge retention for folding knives. How much would a 12C27 blade cost? If only a bit much more than the budget knives that are currently using 420HC, 8cr, or Aus8, that is a good upgrade IMO. That said, once you approach the $100 mark and get up into premium folders in the $200-$300-$400 range, let's face it, I want better steel to go along with the other better materials and the premium fit and finish. And in these price ranges there are better steels. Namely S35vn. This is a tough steel that is easy to sharpen that has good edge retention. It beats 12C27 in all those categories but maybe toughness, but again, if it is a folder I don't need toughness. S35vn is not new or the latest super steel. It has been around a long time and is used extensively. My point is, there is a balance between price, toughness, edge retention, and other aspects to the knife (like premium materials & fit/finish). I think if you look at this subjectively, 12C27 does not fit neatly into this delicate balance. Cheaper knives will use lesser steel and it is reflected in the price. Mid range knives with use mid range steels like 14c28n, VG-10, 154cm and the like which I would take over 12c27 in a folding knife. Past the $100-$150 mark 12c27 is out of its price category which is dominated by S30v and even getting into Elmax and S35vn. And then we have the super steel knives which really are the most rare of the bunch.

And let us not forget that supersteel knives are an extremely niche market. As Chral points out, the vast majority of knives sold everyday are not even close to these new supersteels. So to act like these trendy supersteels are dominating the market is a bit of a fallacy.

This is a good point, I often here people tout 12C27 as a "tough" steel but see no "choppers" made from the stuff other than maybe a few stainless Condor machetes from 420HC that I've never tried so cannot comment on the edge-durability. Anyone have a 420HC or 12C27 chopper they'd like to share about?

This is true, if you want to talk toughness in fixed blades there are better options that have been around a long long time. If we are talking the need for toughness in a folder you may be using the wrong tool.
 
This is a good point, I often here people tout 12C27 as a "tough" steel but see no "choppers" made from the stuff other than maybe a few stainless Condor machetes from 420HC that I've never tried so cannot comment on the edge-durability. Anyone have a 420HC or 12C27 chopper they'd like to share about?

Maybe the toughness aspect is for rougher use, such as batonning, twisting, etc. Maybe there's a difference in "toughness" and "impact resistance". I'm just speculating, as Mora's seem to stand up to this sort of hard use pretty well (they're more or less work/industrial knives at a basic level, with some models having refinements for field use of course). I'm not trying to argue or anything, as choppers in SS generally seem few and far in between compared to carbon steel. Though that knife BLD522 showed is pretty sweet and looks handy!
 
In answer to your questions, go to the first post, coarse edge testing. See the Coyote Meadow in CPM 10V at 64.5 HRC? That's my knife. Then go down to the second from the bottom. Compare the numbers yourself. As for the cost, it was much less than 20x the cost, but that's as specific as I'll get out of consideration for the maker, Phil Wilson.

Yes, I can go from full dull (draw the knife across my wrist) to full sharp in 3-5 minutes easily. This myth of modern steels being hard to sharpen is utter BS. They almost never develop a large burr, if they are properly hardened, and sharpen up much quicker than "traditional" steels.

I have nothing against 12C27, and enjoy it in my Mora 2000. But it is not easier to sharpen than my Coyote Meadow. As for the toughness, I don't care, these are both for cutting.

Sodak,

What sort of sharpener are you using?

The issue I have with a field knife is that I may not have access to a diamond stone. I carry a small DMT credit card "stone" in my EDC pack and carry one in the field, but in the field, it's possible to loose that stone.

With a field knife, or as the OP correctly reports for military personnel in the battle field, they need a blade they can abuse horribly and then get a passable edge on it with nothing more than found objects like coffee mugs, smooth rocks or tempered glass (car window edges, head lamps).

I have several 440C knives, which isn't considered terribly hard to sharpen.

I have a bunch of fine-carbide knives: 420HC, 12C27, 440A, 1095, 1086...

For me, when I head into the field, it's a no-brainer. Unless I'm hunting, where the superior edge retention of 440C will be a big win, I'll pick a faster dulling but easier to sharpen fine-carbide blade every time.

The issue isn't merely that fine-carbide steels are easier to sharpen. It's that they're able to be sharpened using a crude river stone or it's equivalent. I totally agree that access to modern sharpening systems are a game changer and make powdered steels (which have larger and more carbides) relatively easy to sharpen. I can see how guys in the trades might opt for these steels - the steel will stay sharp all day long and can be touched up at night or on the weekend using a good sharpening system. But, take away that sharpening system and then what? That's where a fine-carbide steels make more sense, atmo.

There's another place where fine-carbide steels make sense is when you need to maintain a keen edge over the course of a long project and prefer to do quick touch ups. I've seen papers (as I'm sure you have) that show that professional meat cutters prefer easily touched up fine-grained steels. 12C27 and 12C27mod are highly favored for industrial kitchen use. Again, a few laps on a stone or steel returns the edge. Woodworkers and carpenters still prefer fine-carbide steels for the same reason. I know I can return a 420HC or 12C27 edge to hair popping and curl making in 30 seconds of touch up and would much rather do that every once in a while as needed than to stop, get a more robust sharpener out and then spend 3 to 5 minutes on the knife.

Buck, Opinel, Mora, Leatherman and (I hate to say this) Victorinox are among the most popular knives on the market and all use fine-grained steels. Some of this is due to lower manufacturing costs due to fine blanking processes that can be passed on to the customer. But the other part of this is that for huge number of users, this kind of steel gives a great balance between sharpness, toughness and yes ease of sharpening.

This isn't to say that some users won't find more modern steels to be better. Just saying that I think the OP has raised a valid concern - one that is more widely accepted on the Outdoor and Traditional forums.
 
Okay, so lets bring cost into the equation with toughness and edge retention for folding knives. How much would a 12C27 blade cost? If only a bit much more than the budget knives that are currently using 420HC, 8cr, or Aus8, that is a good upgrade IMO.

You can get an Opinel Inox, 12C27 at 58Rc, for around $15 shipped to your door.

You can get a Mora Companion, again 12C27 at about 58Rc, for $15 shipped.

As others have noted, 12C27 is very close to 420HC. Proponents of 12C27 will argue that contains fewer impurities and the grain structure is finer, but honestly, I can't tell Opinel's 12C27 and Bucks 420HC apart. Both are hardened to around 58Rc. I can tell the difference between both and Case's 420HC (aka Tru-Sharp) which is hardened to about 56Rc and as expected, it rolls edges more easily and tends to burr on the stone more.

Remember, one of the primary reasons for these steels to exist is mass production. These steels can be fine blanked (press cut), which is why today's Buck 110 can be sold for a fraction of what the original 440C version was sold for and why Moras and Opinels and SAKs and Leathermans can achieve the price point they do.


.... if it is a folder I don't need toughness.
(snip...)
This is true, if you want to talk toughness in fixed blades there are better options that have been around a long long time. If we are talking the need for toughness in a folder you may be using the wrong tool.

The bolded bit is nuts. You personally might not need toughness in a folder but many of us do.

The underlined bit is refuted by many. Plenty of folks end up returning to fine carbide steels for giving what they find the best balance of performance characteristics: keen edge, ease of sharpening, good toughness, good enough edge retention. Perhaps you should contact Ethan Becker and tell him that his 1095 isn't the right choice? 420HC and 12C27 are decent 1095 stainless replacements.
 
...And let us not forget that supersteel knives are an extremely niche market. As Chral points out, the vast majority of knives sold everyday are not even close to these new supersteels. So to act like these trendy supersteels are dominating the market is a bit of a fallacy....

Yes they are a niche market. However, would not the members of a blade forum
be that niche market?

The OP asked "why not more love?"

I took this this to mean: why not more love on these Blade Forums, hence, in this niche market? My response was aimed at that question.

I never meant to imply that "these trendy super steels are dominating the market", only that they get more love in these forums/this niche market.

I think in that context, I have made accurate statements.

I will try to be more clear about my thoughts in the future (but I probably won't). ;)
 
Okay, well this is where you need to be either more specific or address both folder and fixed application. Let's especially consider this when toughness is a touted attribute by the OP. IMO if with a folding knife you are doing something that requires high toughness you should not be using a folding knife. I use my folding knives for cutting where edge retention is much more important.



Okay, so lets bring cost into the equation with toughness and edge retention for folding knives. How much would a 12C27 blade cost? If only a bit much more than the budget knives that are currently using 420HC, 8cr, or Aus8, that is a good upgrade IMO. That said, once you approach the $100 mark and get up into premium folders in the $200-$300-$400 range, let's face it, I want better steel to go along with the other better materials and the premium fit and finish. And in these price ranges there are better steels. Namely S35vn. This is a tough steel that is easy to sharpen that has good edge retention. It beats 12C27 in all those categories but maybe toughness, but again, if it is a folder I don't need toughness. S35vn is not new or the latest super steel. It has been around a long time and is used extensively. My point is, there is a balance between price, toughness, edge retention, and other aspects to the knife (like premium materials & fit/finish). I think if you look at this subjectively, 12C27 does not fit neatly into this delicate balance. Cheaper knives will use lesser steel and it is reflected in the price. Mid range knives with use mid range steels like 14c28n, VG-10, 154cm and the like which I would take over 12c27 in a folding knife. Past the $100-$150 mark 12c27 is out of its price category which is dominated by S30v and even getting into Elmax and S35vn. And then we have the super steel knives which really are the most rare of the bunch.

And let us not forget that supersteel knives are an extremely niche market. As Chral points out, the vast majority of knives sold everyday are not even close to these new supersteels. So to act like these trendy supersteels are dominating the market is a bit of a fallacy.



This is true, if you want to talk toughness in fixed blades there are better options that have been around a long long time. If we are talking the need for toughness in a folder you may be using the wrong tool.

1. sorry... you're right. Fixed blade was what I was talking about (although nobody asked to be fair) however, I wouldn't want a folder that wasn't able to take a little rough work.

2. I would put 12c27 up against 154cm and vg-10 for a field use knife any day (take into account, I love my fallkniven F1 more than any knife I have ever bought) and I think they are both great steels. That being the case, 12c27 will rarely chip, take a really good beating and in any other aspect besides edge holding it will give most steels a great run for their money. As far as S35VN goes, it costs me 2.37 times as much for the same piece of steel to make a similar knife... More again for other steels I have as well, and that translates to more cost for the buyer, full stop. I do offer many other steels, but for my baseline infantry proof steel in a knife that I know will make it home, I start with 12c27.

3. again talking fixed blades... I don't know of any stainless steel that is tougher than 12c27. not saying I know everything by a long shot, but I have done a fair bit of research and haven't come up with one yet.
 
Plenty of folks end up returning to fine carbide steels for giving what they find the best balance of performance characteristics: keen edge, ease of sharpening, good toughness, good enough edge retention. Perhaps you should contact Ethan Becker and tell him that his 1095 isn't the right choice? 420HC and 12C27 are decent 1095 stainless replacements.

I think 1095 and other spring steels was exactly what he was referring to as "better options" for "toughness in fixed blades", and 1095 is perhaps the least tough of those. I have not found data (e.g. longitudinal Charpy Impact values) demonstrating that 12C27 and 420HC each at >58Rc are any "tougher" than D2 and 440C and the vast array of other stainless steels, i.e. 20-30 J. As noted, most 420HC and 12C27 is hardened <58 Rc and tends to roll and burr easily, but it may be used in a machete/Leuku at even lower hardness. It resists corrosion, but how much toughness does it trade-off vs. L6 or 5160 or 1095 or 1055, etc.?

S30V & S35VN both produce a keen edge with good toughness and MUCH better edge-retention than 420HC, but I'm not sure how easily these sharpen on a butcher's steel which is what I see getting used the most on knives. Other common sharpening tools include compact ceramic sticks or diamond-coated rods available in every sporting goods store right next to the knives - these work equally well with 420HC and S30V. Then there are the pull-through carbide sharpeners that work poorly with both steels. Those using river-rocks and coffee-mugs with any measurable degree of success on properly hardened steels are in a tiny minority :p

The reason that folk return to "fine carbide steels" is because of $$$. Why pay more for a fancy knife+steel if you can't tell the difference between S35VN at 61Rc and 1095 at <57Rc? And a knife with proper geometry in a lesser steel can outperform one with improper geometry in a better steel. So Mora and Opinel, both very cheap and poor performers in many ways, are very popular and suitable performers in other ways. I love the handle on my Mora Robust for heavy use, didn't like the Opinel n6 but am told that the n8 is much better due simply to size. Both have poor edge-retention in abrasive cutting and the apex needs a microbevel to improve strength, but then you can carve away :thumbup: I recently bought an old Buck 301 Stockman (Camillus-made) and love it :cool: Would it perform better with S30V blades? In abrasive cutting, yes, but it might also cost >2X $$$
 
I think 1095 and other spring steels was exactly what he was referring to as "better options" for "toughness in fixed blades", and 1095 is perhaps the least tough of those. I have not found data (e.g. longitudinal Charpy Impact values) demonstrating that 12C27 and 420HC each at >58Rc are any "tougher" than D2 and 440C and the vast array of other stainless steels, i.e. 20-30 J. As noted, most 420HC and 12C27 is hardened <58 Rc and tends to roll and burr easily, but it may be used in a machete/Leuku at even lower hardness.

Do you have access to any numbers on the Charpy test that would compare 12C27, 420HC and 1095 at 58Rc? The only difference I can tell in these 3 steels is that one patinas. At 56Rc, I can tell a much bigger difference, as just as you say, stainless of this type burrs easily. This is the primary reason I don't like Victorinox Inox or Case Tru-Sharp (but like Buck 420HC and Opinel Inox - both at 58Rc).

Regarding D2 and 440C, the disqualifier for these steels as a general purpose field knife (atmo) is not the lack of toughness but the increase in difficulty in reprofiling in the field. If I dent or chip a 440C blade (at 58Rc), I've no interest in repairing that with a pocket stone. I can (and have) done that repair with Buck's 420HC, Opinel's Inox and Schrade USA's 1095 (probably closer to 59Rc).

Regarding "most" 420HC and the like being hardened <58Rc, I have no idea. I think it's critical to choose just not the steel, but the knife manufacture and their heat treating process. There is a massive difference (atmo) between Buck's and Case's heat treat on 420HC. Night and day. I think Opinel does a great job with 12C27 and Mora has a good reputation with that steel too. Along the same lines, old Schrade USA's treatment of 440A was quite good. Documentation was at or close to 58Rc and it certainly behaves that way. Again, heat treatment is a huge determining factor in these steels.

Regarding your Opinel N6, best to think of the Opinel construction as being similar to axe heads. The bigger the eye, the stronger the connection is. As with bike tubes, strength grows exponentially with diameter. A #8 is stronger than a #6 and a #9 is much, much stronger than a #8, just like a forest axe is stronger than a hatchet and a cruiser is much stronger than a forest axe. Also, just as with axe handles, grain alignment is key for strength in an Opinel. This can vary wildly. As with axe handles, you want the grain to run up and down when viewed from the end, not at an angle or worst, horizontally.

Lastly, regarding sharpening, yes, diamond or ceramic rods are easily available but a) for field use such as in the military application like the OP described one can't assume their availability and b) I sure wouldn't want to repair a dented or dinged S30V blade that way. I'd much rather fix 1095 or 12C27 or 420HC (all at 58Rc) on a river rock. I'm very confident in that and I'm a sharpening hack.

Last, lastly... edge retention (such as measured by rope cutting or CARTA testing) is valuable for some cutting tasks and less important in others. It's the knife equivalent to the 1/4 mile. 1/4 mile tests are of interest but they are considered as factors differently for sports cars and for dragsters. Saying a steel is better because it does better on edge retention tests is like saying a car is better because it has a better 1/4 mile time. My buddy has a late model Vette with a super charger. I told I'll race him in my Outback, so long as I pick the road and time. I'm thinking logging road in northern NH in February. I may even drive back to get his sorry butt!!!
 
Last edited:
I'm almost positive I remember a high end japanese kitchen knife company using 12c27 in their knives and having very, very awesome results with it. The steel is one factor, but so is the grind / heat treatment.
 
I'm almost positive I remember a high end japanese kitchen knife company using 12c27 in their knives and having very, very awesome results with it. The steel is one factor, but so is the grind / heat treatment.

Not sure if it was already mentioned, but Bark River once used 12c27, which seems to have been predominantly replaced with S35VN. I've heard mostly great things about the knives they produced in 12c27.
 
Was it Ginsu? LOL:D

Nope, I can't remember it for the life of me. Maybe I'm mistaken in this though.

Not sure if it was already mentioned, but Bark River once used 12c27, which seems to have been predominantly replaced with S35VN. I've heard mostly great things about the knives they produced in 12c27.

I've not personally experienced this, but I know a lot of people really like the strider cpm154, even compared to 'super steels'. I know some makers like Hattori have perfected vg10 in kitchen knives whereas some makers like shun still have problems with them chipping.

Though if it was me personally, I find it hard to spend money on a knife in 12c27 (or even vg10) when I know there are higher end steels out there.
 
...Though if it was me personally, I find it hard to spend money on a knife in 12c27 (or even vg10) when I know there are higher end steels out there.

See, that is what this whole conversation is about. Why would you discount a great knife design made with a perfectly good steel, just because it is not a "higher end steel"?
 
Not sure if it was already mentioned, but Bark River once used 12c27, which seems to have been predominantly replaced with S35VN. I've heard mostly great things about the knives they produced in 12c27.

As I mentioned earlier, Mike liked 12C27 quite a bit when he was working with it. He said it gave him the toughness of A-2 with slightly less edge-holding. Here's a pic I dug up of a lateral strength test he did with one of his 12C27 knives @ rc 58-60:

Flex_3.jpg
 
Last edited:
See, that is what this whole conversation is about. Why would you discount a great knife design made with a perfectly good steel, just because it is not a "higher end steel"?


I don't think I'd discount a knife if I really wanted it (IE, I love CRK knives and they don't use top of the line steel) but if I had a choice between two very similar designs and one in a premium steel and one not, I'd go premium. Personally, I think it's because I'm a snob. Can I really tell the difference in wear resistance in a well heat treated vg10 vs a cpm154 steel? Probably not, but I know its there, there is a difference, and thats enough to 'bug' me. Its definitely unreasonable, but if I'm spending money, I want the newest flavor of the month. In the same way someone needs the newest sports car or the newest 2015 gear instead of last years model.
 
For me 12c27 falls in with a fairly large group of steels like 420HC, 8cr13mov, AUS8 and most low alloy carbons. They're all fine for my uses outdoors, as I don't cut many abrasives out there, but they fall flat for my everyday cutting tasks which often involve cardboard, cordage or plastics that wear a blade out much more quickly. Sadly, I currently spend much more time indoors cutting abrasives than outdoors walloping wood, so for now my interest is mostly in higher carbide content, wear resistant steel.
 
I don't think I'd discount a knife if I really wanted it (IE, I love CRK knives and they don't use top of the line steel) but if I had a choice between two very similar designs and one in a premium steel and one not, I'd go premium. Personally, I think it's because I'm a snob. Can I really tell the difference in wear resistance in a well heat treated vg10 vs a cpm154 steel? Probably not, but I know its there, there is a difference, and thats enough to 'bug' me. Its definitely unreasonable, but if I'm spending money, I want the newest flavor of the month. In the same way someone needs the newest sports car or the newest 2015 gear instead of last years model.

Ok, that's valid. I am just curious as to why some people feel this way. I can perfectly understand your reasoning. Because to tell you the truth, I'm a bit of a knife snob myself.;)
 
Back
Top