12c27... why not more love?

[jackknife]

"Regarding your Opinel N6, best to think of the Opinel construction as being similar to axe heads. The bigger the eye, the stronger the connection is. As with bike tubes, strength grows exponentially with diameter. A #8 is stronger than a #6 and a #9 is much, much stronger than a #8, just like a forest axe is stronger than a hatchet and a cruiser is much stronger than a forest axe. Also, just as with axe handles, grain alignment is key for strength in an Opinel. This can vary wildly. As with axe handles, you want the grain to run up and down when viewed from the end, not at an angle or worst, horizontally."

This one of the most informative posts on Opinel construction that I've read, and makes so much sense. Thank you pinnah! Having seen a few Opinels break, and hearing of others, this makes sense to me. I've never had a number 9, but I did have a number 12 for a while and it was capable of taking a beating. It just didn't fit in a pocket so I let someone else have it that wanted it.

Having used both the carbon steel and stainless Opinel's since the early 1980's, I much prefer the 12C27 stainless. I gave away my carbon ones when I got my first stainless and was so impressed with it.

Both the better half and I have stainless mora's and love them.

 

[Ankerson]

There are 3 basic general categories of steels that are used in knives these days.

1) High Alloy/High Carbide Stainless and tool steels: Examples are CPM S110V, CPM 10V, CPM S90V, CPM M4.

When maximum edge retention is the priority, they also have good strength, drawbacks can be harder to sharpen than some other steels and impact toughness is lower than the other types so if big choppers are needed there are other steels better suited for those.

2) High Alloy/Medium Carbide Stainless and Tool Steels: Examples are CPM S30V, CPM S35VN, CPM 154, 154CM, ELMAX, M390, CPM 3V, CPM 4V.

These provide a good balance of toughness, strength, and edge retention and can be used in a variety of different types of knives so we typically see them used in the mainstream knives.

3) Low Alloy/Low Carbide Stainless and Basic Carbon Steels: Examples are 10XX Series, AEB-L, 420HC, 420J2, 440A/B/C, 52100, A2, 5160, L6, VG-10, AUS-8, N690, S7.

Good toughness for larger blades, swords, machetes for some of them. Can be used in smaller general use knives when cost is a factor to keep the prices down so we see them a large variety of knives. Can provide decent edge retention, but less than the other two groups in general.

 

[bld522]

There are 3 basic general categories of steels that are used in knives these days.

1) High Alloy/High Carbide Stainless and tool steels: Examples are CPM S110V, CPM 10V, CPM S90V, CPM M4.

When maximum edge retention is the priority, they also have good strength, drawbacks can be harder to sharpen than some other steels and impact toughness is lower than the other types so if big choppers are needed there are other steels better suited for those.

2) High Alloy/Medium Carbide Stainless and Tool Steels: Examples are CPM S30V, CPM S35VN, CPM 154, 154CM, ELMAX, M390, CPM 3V, CPM 4V.

These provide a good balance of toughness, strength, and edge retention and can be used in a variety of different types of knives so we typically see them used in the mainstream knives.

3) Low Alloy/Low Carbide Stainless and Basic Carbon Steels: Examples are 10XX Series, AEB-L, 420HC, 420J2, 440A/B/C, 52100, A2, 5160, L6, VG-10, AUS-8, N690, S7.

Good toughness for larger blades, swords, machetes for some of them. Can be used in smaller general use knives when cost is a factor to keep the prices down so we see them a large variety of knives. Can provide decent edge retention, but less than the other two groups in general.

Yeah, but you forgot to mention 12C27. No worries. I pay attention, so I know what category that fits in.

 

[Mikael W]

This is a good point, I often here people tout 12C27 as a "tough" steel but see no "choppers" made from the stuff other than maybe a few stainless Condor machetes from 420HC that I've never tried so cannot comment on the edge-durability. Anyone have a 420HC or 12C27 chopper they'd like to share about?

Yes, I have the Bark River 8,5" LE Custom Bowie they did in 2009.
It's made from 0,2" inch thick 12c27 steel and came out 0,187 thick.

I didn't buy the knife for the steel, but for the design.
The geometry works also for chopping and I have not had any edgefailures.
It's not made specifically as a chopper, but it can do the job.
In fact it's a great allrounder, that can do most jobs You need a knife for.

Regards
Mikael

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, but you forgot to mention 12C27. No worries. I pay attention, so I know what category that fits in.

I didn't forget it, to me it's the same as 420HC.

 

[bld522]

I didn't forget it, to me it's the same as 420HC.

Yes. I understand.

 

[davek14]

Interesting thread...

I was as confused as you are when I started reading it because as you pointed out it's widely used in the knife industry.

Now start looking at the typical knives that are made from it (12c27/420HC) they are low cost knives and as we all know they sell as with anything that is lower cost.

I am not even going to address some of the posts about edge retention etc because these steels have little to zero carbide formation because the Carbon Content isn't high enough to form carbides, high enough for the steels to get hard, but not enough to actually pull alloy into the matrix to form carbides. So basically they are like most of the basic carbon steels except they are stainless.

Nothing really wrong with steels in this class, I will add AEB-L in this group also.

All it comes down to is what a person wants or thinks they need.

1. What do they use their knives for?
2. Do they know how to sharpen a knife, and what are they using?
3. Folder or Fixed Blade?
4. What's their budget?
5. Do they even carry a knife at all, or does it just sit on a table?

The OP did not specify which steel he thought 12c27 was "better" than but I got the impression that he thought it was great for a mid range steel.

Powdered Metalurgy steels would prolly be great for any uses as well. And even at that might have some advantages and disadvantages.

Apples and oranges.

Hey Dave... I wasn't saying it was better than any I don't think. Just that it is a really great hard use stainless steel and was wondering why it's not seen more and why it is kind of overlooked IMHO. Apples, oranges, pineapples... all inclusive, I do think it's better than a lot of steels for bushcraft and soldier's knives because it has all the characteristics I feel contribute to giving someone that uses their steel in less than ideal circumstances everything they need, such as:
-stainless (not mandatory... but a real bonus) but like mentioned above, it acts like carbon steel.
-takes a razor fine edge because of the grain size
-is tougher than a boiled work boot... again, because of the fine grain
-is easy to resharpen.

People don't understand what they are buying for the most part, they are going off misconceptions and marketing, also some really bad information like some of the posts in this thread and lastly urban legends.

Basically to keep things simple in stainless steels 440A/B and C (.75% carbon content or higher) is really the starting point of a grade that can actually develop carbides in an amount that will make a difference, that's other than Iron Carbides that all steels have but we really don't count those.

Preferably 1% and up and that's with the alloy present to develop the carbides in enough percentage to actually make a difference.

Doesn't 440C have some carbide formation?

Not to hijack, but for folks who want a lower cost knife for whatever reasons, what are steels/knives which will get you into carbide land the most frugally.

 

[Ankerson]

Yes. I understand.

It's just a very basic, very general list of how the steels fit these days.

Based on Alloy/Carbide content.

 

[Ankerson]

Doesn't 440C have some carbide formation?

Not to hijack, but for folks who want a lower cost knife for whatever reasons, what are steels/knives which will get you into carbide land the most frugally.

Yeah that's why i posted this:

Basically to keep things simple in stainless steels 440A/B and C (.75% carbon content or higher) is really the starting point of a grade that can actually develop carbides in an amount that will make a difference,

Depending on HT think 440C and up from there.

 

[davek14]

There are 3 basic general categories of steels that are used in knives these days.

1) High Alloy/High Carbide Stainless and tool steels: Examples are CPM S110V, CPM 10V, CPM S90V, CPM M4.

When maximum edge retention is the priority, they also have good strength, drawbacks can be harder to sharpen than some other steels and impact toughness is lower than the other types so if big choppers are needed there are other steels better suited for those.

2) High Alloy/Medium Carbide Stainless and Tool Steels: Examples are CPM S30V, CPM S35VN, CPM 154, 154CM, ELMAX, M390, CPM 3V, CPM 4V.

These provide a good balance of toughness, strength, and edge retention and can be used in a variety of different types of knives so we typically see them used in the mainstream knives.

3) Low Alloy/Low Carbide Stainless and Basic Carbon Steels: Examples are 10XX Series, AEB-L, 420HC, 420J2, 440A/B/C, 52100, A2, 5160, L6, VG-10, AUS-8, N690, S7.

Good toughness for larger blades, swords, machetes for some of them. Can be used in smaller general use knives when cost is a factor to keep the prices down so we see them a large variety of knives. Can provide decent edge retention, but less than the other two groups in general.

I like this.

Yeah that's why i posted this:



Depending on HT think 440C and up from there.

Sorry, I misread that. I do find the metallurgy quite interesting. Do you know of any you tube videos like "carbide formation for dummies"?

I couldn't see myself carrying a $100 knife, I'd be afraid of losing it. I am trying to get some better steel lately though.

12c27 is one of the best "middies" IMHO.

 

[Ankerson]

I like this.


Sorry, I misread that. I do find the metallurgy quite interesting. Do you know of any you tube videos like "carbide formation for dummies"?

I couldn't see myself carrying a $100 knife, I'd be afraid of losing it. I am trying to get some better steel lately though.

I can't think of any that aren't full of complete BS and are agenda driven and basically give out bad information because everything that doesn't feed the agenda is left out. So people don't get the whole story so that's very bad in general.

In reality they do give out the correct information, but are also completely wrong so it can be both correct and incorrect at the same time.

Personally I refuse to deal with those types at all anymore as they aren't worth my time and effort to fill in the holes in their BS.

Metallurgy covers a very broad range, a lot of it doesn't have anything to do with knife blades or I should say things that are relevant to knife blades and that's where things can get confusing. Some use the information to misdirect people into buying into their agendas or what they are trying to sell you or shill for. So yes they can be giving out the correct information right out of the book, but not really relevant to the topic at hand or they leave out the parts that really do matter.

 

[craytab]

You can get an Opinel Inox, 12C27 at 58Rc, for around $15 shipped to your door.

You can get a Mora Companion, again 12C27 at about 58Rc, for $15 shipped.

You miss read my question and statement. I am well aware of the cost of an opinel and a mora. I am asking about knives that currently use the low end steels I was referring to (8cr and what not). How much more would a kershaw made in China cost if it use 12c27. Reread the post.

The bolded bit is nuts. You personally might not need toughness in a folder but many of us do.

Hmm...Since you think what I need is nuts I think what you personally need is nuts :thumbup:

The underlined bit is refuted by many. Plenty of folks end up returning to fine carbide steels for giving what they find the best balance of performance characteristics: keen edge, ease of sharpening, good toughness, good enough edge retention. Perhaps you should contact Ethan Becker and tell him that his 1095 isn't the right choice? 420HC and 12C27 are decent 1095 stainless replacements.

You completely miss read my statement, yet again. Steels like 1095 were exactly what I was talking about. So before name dropping and asking me to go talk to manufacturers, read more. I said earlier in the thread the exact thing you did (without the snark) about BKT and Esee. So please, read the whole thread before you call someone out.

I think 1095 and other spring steels was exactly what he was referring to as "better options" for "toughness in fixed blades", and 1095 is perhaps the least tough of those. I have not found data (e.g. longitudinal Charpy Impact values) demonstrating that 12C27 and 420HC each at >58Rc are any "tougher" than D2 and 440C and the vast array of other stainless steels, i.e. 20-30 J. As noted, most 420HC and 12C27 is hardened <58 Rc and tends to roll and burr easily, but it may be used in a machete/Leuku at even lower hardness. It resists corrosion, but how much toughness does it trade-off vs. L6 or 5160 or 1095 or 1055, etc.?

There. He gets it :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

For those who might be interested I have something for them to try, not for the faint at heart though.

They will need some leather gloves, good heavy ones are best.

1) Good down to the local hardware store and pick up some 175# heavy duty zip ties, they are cheap, pack of 10 18" ones for around $7 or so, the flat ones.

2) Get you a nice piece of wood to cut on, you will need it.

3) Put the zip tie on the wood flat and take that knife (whatever knife) and try and cut through the zip tie, your going to have to push cut through it. This is were the gloves come in because you will need to put your palm on the spine of the blade to make the cut and it's going to take a lot of pressure to do it.

 

[rustyrazor]

Hey Dave... I wasn't saying it was better than any I don't think. Just that it is a really great hard use stainless steel and was wondering why it's not seen more and why it is kind of overlooked IMHO. Apples, oranges, pineapples... all inclusive, I do think it's better than a lot of steels for bushcraft and soldier's knives because it has all the characteristics I feel contribute to giving someone that uses their steel in less than ideal circumstances everything they need, such as:
-stainless (not mandatory... but a real bonus) but like mentioned above, it acts like carbon steel.
-takes a razor fine edge because of the grain size
-is tougher than a boiled work boot... again, because of the fine grain
-is easy to resharpen.

What more could you want?

if someone has a stainless that fits all these better, I just haven't heard of it... and by all means, If someone has an opinion on one that is better please chime in. Seriously guys, I'm here to learn as well. All opinions welcome.

Just a bump... I don't know how else to do it other than asking again. My interest in this thread is in reference to what would be a better steel than 12c27 for the reasons mentioned in the above post, but I seem to be coming up short... anyone?

 

[craytab]

Just a bump... I don't know how else to do it other than asking again. My interest in this thread is in reference to what would be a better steel than 12c27 for the reasons mentioned in the above post, but I seem to be coming up short... anyone?

And just to add to your inquiry, you are talking about Fixed blades right? I mean, I know you are, you clarified it earlier, but some folks don't read the whole thread before commenting so I thought I would just reiterate that here with your bump.

 

[Mikael W]

Just a bump... I don't know how else to do it other than asking again. My interest in this thread is in reference to what would be a better steel than 12c27 for the reasons mentioned in the above post, but I seem to be coming up short... anyone?

Of course there are better alternatives availible, if You are willing to pay for them.
If You want a basic stainless steel, there's nothing wrong with 12c27, or the eqvivalent steels from other producers than Sandvik.
Knives for your listed criterias has been in production for at least 45 years and still is.

In the late 1980'ies I bought 3 Mora #740.
One in 12c27 at rc57, one in 1095 at rc60 and one in laminated O1 at rc61.
I used them hard in my carpentry buisness and they are all still in use from time to time.

It was no surprise to me that the hardest knife, the laminated O1 knife stayed sharp the longest and it became the most used of the 3.
The 12c27 knife got dull first and I didn't use it as much as the other two.
As it's stainless, it is now stored in the toolshed and used by the family when someone needs a knife.
Works great!

Personally I prefer 12c27 at rc58 as it holds an edge a little bit better, than that old Mora of mine.
Geometry is also very important and I always give my edges a convex profile, to not roll or dent the very cuttingedge.

As I have inumerous good knives to buy today, I tend to go with knives in powdersteels for work, but I also use cheap Mora's in both carbon and 12c27.



Regards
Mikael

 

[davek14]

Hey Dave... I wasn't saying it was better than any I don't think. Just that it is a really great hard use stainless steel and was wondering why it's not seen more and why it is kind of overlooked IMHO. Apples, oranges, pineapples... all inclusive, I do think it's better than a lot of steels for bushcraft and soldier's knives because it has all the characteristics I feel contribute to giving someone that uses their steel in less than ideal circumstances everything they need, such as:
-stainless (not mandatory... but a real bonus) but like mentioned above, it acts like carbon steel.
-takes a razor fine edge because of the grain size
-is tougher than a boiled work boot... again, because of the fine grain
-is easy to resharpen.

What more could you want?

if someone has a stainless that fits all these better, I just haven't heard of it... and by all means, If someone has an opinion on one that is better please chime in. Seriously guys, I'm here to learn as well. All opinions welcome.

"Tougher'n a boiled work boot", I like it consider it stolen. I mean it's actually "Harder'n woodpecker lips".

 

[sodak]

[...] As with bike tubes, strength grows exponentially with diameter. [..]

Hijacking the thread for a minute...

Jackknife, that makes sense. I also remember in the 70's, manufacturers of high end bikes always joining the tubes with brazed lugs - the opinions at that time were that welding made a weak joint. Now all I see are Tig welded joints. I realize I haven't kept up with the technology, but did something change?

Thanks!

Just a bump... I don't know how else to do it other than asking again. My interest in this thread is in reference to what would be a better steel than 12c27 for the reasons mentioned in the above post, but I seem to be coming up short... anyone?

Since I just hijacked your thread, I'll try to reply directly. The steel that I would try would be VG 10. I've had really good luck with it, and it's not terribly expensive.

 

[rustyrazor]

Hijacking the thread for a minute...



Since I just hijacked your thread, I'll try to reply directly. The steel that I would try would be VG 10. I've had really good luck with it, and it's not terribly expensive.

Couldn't agree more that VG-10 is a great steel... I don't think it's as tough as 12c27 but edge holding? you bet! it is a wonderful steel for the bush. I've carried the fallkniven f1 for about 7 years now and love it.

Craytab: yep, only fixed blade. in particular 12c27 from admiral steel, hardened by peters at 58-59 to be exact. I've been making my basic military fixed blades out of this steel for the last year and a half and I just wanted people's opinion on it. I think it's absolutely great stuff and I just wondered why it was big in Europe, but over here it has little to no love.

Dave14: anything I say, you can steal. lol... I have no idea what is my own thoughts or regurgitated from 100,000 hours of tv and internet in my life, so I'm not going to patent anything that comes out of my head.

MikealW: which options are that much better that they are worth the money? As stated a few times, 12c27 acts like A2 but is stainless. are their steels that hold an edge longer? yes.. one's that are more stainless? yes.. ones that are tougher? yes. one's that are easier to resharpen in the field? yes... ones that put all of these together in one steel? I honestly don't know. that's why I started this thread and 5 pages later, I still haven't had someone say "......." beats it in all of those areas.

I just want the best steel for the job for someone who is going to take this blade to somewhere, and use it for god knows how long to do god knows what with it and be as maintenance free as possible. Those are the attributes that keep a blade on a person's belt or tac-vest until they come home, because they like how it held up and how it performed.

 

[Mikael W]

Couldn't agree more that VG-10 is a great steel... I don't think it's as tough as 12c27 but edge holding? you bet! it is a wonderful steel for the bush. I've carried the fallkniven f1 for about 7 years now and love it.

Craytab: yep, only fixed blade. in particular 12c27 from admiral steel, hardened by peters at 58-59 to be exact. I've been making my basic military fixed blades out of this steel for the last year and a half and I just wanted people's opinion on it. I think it's absolutely great stuff and I just wondered why it was big in Europe, but over here it has little to no love.

Dave14: anything I say, you can steal. lol... I have no idea what is my own thoughts or regurgitated from 100,000 hours of tv and internet in my life, so I'm not going to patent anything that comes out of my head.

MikealW: which options are that much better that they are worth the money? As stated a few times, 12c27 acts like A2 but is stainless. are their steels that hold an edge longer? yes.. one's that are more stainless? yes.. ones that are tougher? yes. one's that are easier to resharpen in the field? yes... ones that put all of these together in one steel? I honestly don't know. that's why I started this thread and 5 pages later, I still haven't had someone say "......." beats it in all of those areas.

I just want the best steel for the job for someone who is going to take this blade to somewhere, and use it for god knows how long to do god knows what with it and be as maintenance free as possible. Those are the attributes that keep a blade on a person's belt or tac-vest until they come home, because they like how it held up and how it performed.

I use knives in powdersteel from Fällkniven (SGPS), Leatherman (S30V), Bark River (CPS-HXP) (CPM-3V), Northwoods (CPM154) + a custom knife in Damasteel.
I'm also very fond of my laminated VG-10 knives.
I think they are all better for my needs than 12c27, but that doesn't mean 12c27 is a bad steel.
It's a great steel, provided the heat-treatment and geometry are right for the intended use of the knife.

Bark River Sperati Point in 12c27, rc58.

12c27 Mora Buschcraft Force blade, with homemade handle & sheath.

It doesn't like wet storing in a Kydex sheath and will develop pitting real quick in the wrong conditions.
The same with a leathersheath, so I always wipe the blades dry before sheathing.

I know how to fieldsharpen a damage to the edge, with a Fällkniven DC-stone and a loaded piece of leather.
This doesn't seem to be the case with Your customer base and that makes me think 12c27 is a good choice for them.

My wife uses a 12c27 Mora at rc58 and she is completely satisfied with it.
I have offered knives to her in better steels, but she prefers her Mora.
She seldom asks me to sharpen it and I'm surprised at the amount of cutting, she gets out of that knife.
It can be a whole year, before she let me touch up the edge.

If Your customers are capable of maintenance and sharpening, I think You could offer a more high-end steel.
If not, stay with 12c27, as it seems to work for Your buisness.


Regards
Mikael