12c27... why not more love?

[sodak]

Sodak,

What sort of sharpener are you using?

The issue I have with a field knife is that I may not have access to a diamond stone. I carry a small DMT credit card "stone" in my EDC pack and carry one in the field, but in the field, it's possible to loose that stone.

With a field knife, or as the OP correctly reports for military personnel in the battle field, they need a blade they can abuse horribly and then get a passable edge on it with nothing more than found objects like coffee mugs, smooth rocks or tempered glass (car window edges, head lamps).

I have several 440C knives, which isn't considered terribly hard to sharpen.

I have a bunch of fine-carbide knives: 420HC, 12C27, 440A, 1095, 1086...

For me, when I head into the field, it's a no-brainer. Unless I'm hunting, where the superior edge retention of 440C will be a big win, I'll pick a faster dulling but easier to sharpen fine-carbide blade every time.

The issue isn't merely that fine-carbide steels are easier to sharpen. It's that they're able to be sharpened using a crude river stone or it's equivalent. I totally agree that access to modern sharpening systems are a game changer and make powdered steels (which have larger and more carbides) relatively easy to sharpen. I can see how guys in the trades might opt for these steels - the steel will stay sharp all day long and can be touched up at night or on the weekend using a good sharpening system. But, take away that sharpening system and then what? That's where a fine-carbide steels make more sense, atmo.

There's another place where fine-carbide steels make sense is when you need to maintain a keen edge over the course of a long project and prefer to do quick touch ups. I've seen papers (as I'm sure you have) that show that professional meat cutters prefer easily touched up fine-grained steels. 12C27 and 12C27mod are highly favored for industrial kitchen use. Again, a few laps on a stone or steel returns the edge. Woodworkers and carpenters still prefer fine-carbide steels for the same reason. I know I can return a 420HC or 12C27 edge to hair popping and curl making in 30 seconds of touch up and would much rather do that every once in a while as needed than to stop, get a more robust sharpener out and then spend 3 to 5 minutes on the knife.

Buck, Opinel, Mora, Leatherman and (I hate to say this) Victorinox are among the most popular knives on the market and all use fine-grained steels. Some of this is due to lower manufacturing costs due to fine blanking processes that can be passed on to the customer. But the other part of this is that for huge number of users, this kind of steel gives a great balance between sharpness, toughness and yes ease of sharpening.

This isn't to say that some users won't find more modern steels to be better. Just saying that I think the OP has raised a valid concern - one that is more widely accepted on the Outdoor and Traditional forums.

Hi Pinnah,

I am usually using the DMT diafolds, I prefer the green/beige and if necessary, the red/blue. I know there are better descriptions but I go by color out of laziness. Like I said, I have no problems with 12C27, as a matter of fact, SAK steels (is it Kruups 4116?) are also some of my favorites, along with Buck's 402HC. All are good. Some of my favorite outdoor knives are O1 and 52100, great steels also. I like them all.

I was merely objecting to the oft-repeated line that the super steels can't be touched up by users. Because of their lack of burring, I find they are much easier to sharpen. Much. Now yes, if someone wants to only use a rock on the ground to sharpen, I can't say which steel is easier. I will say, however, I've tried using a rock some of my 1095 knives, and couldn't get an edge. It's harder than it sounds. Using ceramics or glass, I still find the CPM 10V very easy to sharpen, just takes a little longer than using diamonds. But not bad at all.

I think the average user would be shocked at just how long you can go between sharpenings with some of these steels. The difference is truly staggering. It's not just the "steel of the day", it's a quantum leap. Yes, they are expensive, but the price to performance ratio justifies the cost, if you are after performance. But only cutting performance. If there is hard usage involved, then there are better choices, obviously.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about anyone's steel choice, just want to correct myths, thanks!

Edit - I should have mentioned, that I find ease of sharpening more related to the geometry than the steel - when using diamonds. As always, YMMV.

 

[davek14]

this stuff is tougher than woodpecker lips

You're the only other person I've heard use that expression.

I sure would like to see more sandvick steels in replace of 8cr. I'd pay a little more for it.

:thumbup: Much better at taking and keeping a fine edge because...

It is similar to other steels like 440A and 420HC but is purportedly more pure and has finer grain structures.

flarp beat me to it, but here's what I picked up from Mike Stewart:

12C27 is fine grained. It has much smaller carbides than any of the 440's. The carbides are also much more evenly dispersed. 12C27 could be referred to as the A-2 of the stainless steels. It is stronger and tougher than the large carbide stainless steels and it rolls instead of chips if over stressed -- just like A-2. It can be tempered into the 58-58.5 rc range without becoming brittle. It can hold an edge like a carbon steel while still being easy to sharpen. It has good corrosion resistance.

Id'n it finer grained? Go to :27.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh4obOPltpw&list=PLBlTbKAsu2ytCHsKV1zZJIpJHbYKgLNhk&index=1
And about 3:00 touches on cementite.

Okay, so lets bring cost into the equation with toughness and edge retention for folding knives. How much would a 12C27 blade cost? If only a bit much more than the budget knives that are currently using 420HC, 8cr, or Aus8, that is a good upgrade IMO. That said, once you approach the $100 mark and get up into premium folders in the $200-$300-$400 range, let's face it, I want better steel to go along with the other better materials and the premium fit and finish. And in these price ranges there are better steels. Namely S35vn. This is a tough steel that is easy to sharpen that has good edge retention. It beats 12C27 in all those categories but maybe toughness, but again, if it is a folder I don't need toughness. S35vn is not new or the latest super steel. It has been around a long time and is used extensively. My point is, there is a balance between price, toughness, edge retention, and other aspects to the knife (like premium materials & fit/finish). I think if you look at this subjectively, 12C27 does not fit neatly into this delicate balance. Cheaper knives will use lesser steel and it is reflected in the price. Mid range knives with use mid range steels like 14c28n, VG-10, 154cm and the like which I would take over 12c27 in a folding knife. Past the $100-$150 mark 12c27 is out of its price category which is dominated by S30v and even getting into Elmax and S35vn. And then we have the super steel knives which really are the most rare of the bunch.

Kinda maybe, but Pinnah has already pointed out Opinels and Moras. Not a bad thought though.

 

[chiral.grolim]

As I mentioned earlier, Mike liked 12C27 quite a bit when he was working with it. He said it gave him the tougness of A-2 with slightly less edge-holding. Here's a pic I dug up of a lateral strength test he did with one of his 12C27 knives @ rc 58-60:

I've seen Phil Wilson do that with CPM-10V.

Wasn't this also one of Mike's 12C27 knives?

[video=youtube;p4ss8NtqEkw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ss8NtqEkw[/video]


To Pinnah, I haven't found Charpy values for 420HC and 12C27, 1095 @58Rc rates ~40J (slightly lower than O1 & A2) while D2 rates ~30J, 440C and S35VN both rate 20-30J (per Crucible's site). I agree, I'd hate to repair a thick 440C or D2 or S30V blade in the field with even a diamond-coated rod, would definitely prefer trying to smooth out a dent, but especially would prefer not to have severely damaged a very expensive knife 1095 is used in Kabars and other military knives primarily because it was cheap (government contract) while being suitably strong. Gerber uses 420HC as the stainless alternative, so does Victorinox and others though Buck's HT-protocol (via Paul Bos) is reputed to be the best :thumbup:

 

[bld522]

I've seen Phil Wilson do that with CPM-10V.

No surprise there.

Wasn't this also one of Mike's 12C27 knives?

I'm not here to defend Bark River knives. I don't even own one. I was just aware that Mike had made several models of Bark Rivers that used 12C27 and he liked the steel. I haven't heard any other U.S. knifemaker speak about that alloy as highly as he did.

 

[davek14]

The OP did not specify which steel he thought 12c27 was "better" than but I got the impression that he thought it was great for a mid range steel.

Powdered Metalurgy steels would prolly be great for any uses as well. And even at that might have some advantages and disadvantages.

Apples and oranges.

 

[pinnah]

@Sodak: We're in agreement that Diamond sharpeners change things entirely. FWIW, Buck agrees with you that S30V is the best steel. But then, they also note it's harder to sharpen than 420HC - enough so that they offer a sharpening service for it. I think that you and Buck are both right - that the ease of sharpening depends primarily on the availability of diamond sharpeners.

BTW, can you compare S30V and 440C in term of ease of sharpening? S30V vs D2?

@Chiram: I suspect we agree that a bad grind can ruin a good steel, yes? That Bark River looks like an idea that didn't pan out. The reviewer should try an Opinel #10 in Inox (12C27). Or a Mora.

@DaveK14: Please let me know next time you get up here bud. Dying to sit over a coffee. You wouldn't believe the snow. Still remembering you and your family. The metal covered Opi remains open on the work bench where it gets used as my primary scoring knife.

 

[Rich S]

I have several Scandinavian knives made with Sandvik 12C27 and LOVE it. Best stainless steel around IMHO. Sharpens to a razor edge and holds it. Cuts like a laser. Great steel; wish more makers would use it.
Rich

 

[rustyrazor]

The OP did not specify which steel he thought 12c27 was "better" than but I got the impression that he thought it was great for a mid range steel.

Powdered Metalurgy steels would prolly be great for any uses as well. And even at that might have some advantages and disadvantages.

Apples and oranges.

Hey Dave... I wasn't saying it was better than any I don't think. Just that it is a really great hard use stainless steel and was wondering why it's not seen more and why it is kind of overlooked IMHO. Apples, oranges, pineapples... all inclusive, I do think it's better than a lot of steels for bushcraft and soldier's knives because it has all the characteristics I feel contribute to giving someone that uses their steel in less than ideal circumstances everything they need, such as:
-stainless (not mandatory... but a real bonus) but like mentioned above, it acts like carbon steel.
-takes a razor fine edge because of the grain size
-is tougher than a boiled work boot... again, because of the fine grain
-is easy to resharpen.

What more could you want?

if someone has a stainless that fits all these better, I just haven't heard of it... and by all means, If someone has an opinion on one that is better please chime in. Seriously guys, I'm here to learn as well. All opinions welcome.

 

[ebidis]

I think this is a great thread!:thumbup:
Lots of good comments, and great discussion without any drama so far. I guess people on BF can be civil every now and then.

On topic: other than Opinel, and Mora, which have been mentioned many times, what are some other popular knives which use 12c27?

I have no experience with this steel, but now my curiosity is peeked, and I think I would like to try it out.

I have a lot of experience with 420HC, is it really that similar? Like identical twins, or just distant cousins?

 

[Ankerson]

I don't understand, 12C27 is basically just Europe's version of 420HC which has been used in mass-produced knives from the most prolific manufacturers for decades, as pinnah pointed out above. It is EXTREMELY popular, the single most-used stainless steel used in knives into the modern day, though it is slowly being replaced with Chinese imports of 7Cr & 8Cr. You've heard of Buck and Gerber, yes? They are in every sporting-goods store in America that I've been in and most of their knives are 420HC. Leatherman uses mostly 420HC. Victorinox/Wenger uses "INOX", another version of the same in their Swiss Army Knives. As already mentioned, it's used in Moras and Opinels...

There are more outdoor knives made of this stuff than any of the "new" steels on the market. The idea that it isn't "popular" is wildly inaccurate.

Why doesn't it get more praise? Real-world experience: newer steels take just as fine of an edge (using modern hones) and hold it much better in various types of cutting. Here are two independent rope-cutters:
http://www.fotogaleria.sandor.sk/ine/ostrie/Vysledky_testov.pdf
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

Do you see where 12C27 and 420HC fall in those tests?

I enjoy my 420HC and 12C27 knives, especially their affordability (carrying a 12C27M buck right now). With regard to "traditionals" and also customs, there is much more emphasis placed on the style and execution of the design - handle materials, bolsters, thinness and polish of the grind, grind-lines, snap of springs, etc. :thumbup: A person buying a custom or a traditional is after more than steel-type.

Interesting thread...

I was as confused as you are when I started reading it because as you pointed out it's widely used in the knife industry.

Now start looking at the typical knives that are made from it (12c27/420HC) they are low cost knives and as we all know they sell as with anything that is lower cost.

I am not even going to address some of the posts about edge retention etc because these steels have little to zero carbide formation because the Carbon Content isn't high enough to form carbides, high enough for the steels to get hard, but not enough to actually pull alloy into the matrix to form carbides. So basically they are like most of the basic carbon steels except they are stainless.

Nothing really wrong with steels in this class, I will add AEB-L in this group also.

All it comes down to is what a person wants or thinks they need.

1. What do they use their knives for?
2. Do they know how to sharpen a knife, and what are they using?
3. Folder or Fixed Blade?
4. What's their budget?
5. Do they even carry a knife at all, or does it just sit on a table?

 

[sodak]

@Sodak: We're in agreement that Diamond sharpeners change things entirely. FWIW, Buck agrees with you that S30V is the best steel. But then, they also note it's harder to sharpen than 420HC - enough so that they offer a sharpening service for it. I think that you and Buck are both right - that the ease of sharpening depends primarily on the availability of diamond sharpeners.

BTW, can you compare S30V and 440C in term of ease of sharpening? S30V vs D2?
[...]

Hi Pinnah,

You might have my posts confused with someone else's I'm not a big S30V fan.

I'll tell you what I think - but take it with a large grain of salt, just my opinions here.

For edge holding in abrasive materials:

I have always hated S30V. I bought knives from 3 different (well known) manufacturers, and they were all terrible. No chipping, but they wouldn't hold an edge, and I couldn't for the life of me get a decent edge on them, I always had to revert to my Edgepro. Once I got a decent edge, it would be gone in 3 cuts. For me, S30V has been a deal breaker, if a knife is in that steel, I won't buy it.

Having said that, fast forward 8 years or so. I was recently loaned a Buck Vanguard in S30V, and much to my surprise, it held an edge better than some of my D2 knives. It sharpened up crisply as well. To say I was shocked would be an understatement. I'm thinking that the heat treat must be very particular, and most companies haven't done a good job, but perhaps in recent years, they've improved. I still won't buy it, but am now open to the possibility that it might not stink as much as I used to think.

I just got my first knife in 440C (cast/dendritic), but haven't used it enough to form an opinion. It certainly sharpened up easily the first time I sharpened it.

For many years, D2 was one of my "baseline" steels, meaning if a knife could hold an edge as long, then it was golden. I think very highly of D2, I have knives primarily from both Queen and Dozier. I've never had one with a bad heat treat, and I've bought probably 2 dozen total. I find that D2 takes a great edge and holds it for a very long time.

IMO, all of the above steels have been eclipsed by some of the newer ones, CPM M4, CPM 10V, CPM 3V, etc. All of these have as good as or better edge holding than D2, IMO, and the first two, significantly more. I have a hard time justifying buying any more D2 if I can get a knife in one of these 3, unless it's a design that I really like, and doesn't come in anything else. Geometry can certainly overcome a lesser steel, but if you can get the same geometry in a better steel, the results can be fantastic.

There's nothing wrong with D2 or 1095, they still work just as good as they ever did. They have been completely eclipsed in performance, so it's up to everyone to decide cost v.s. value. For me, it's worth it, for others, it might not be. It is fun to use a knife all weekend and not be able to tell that it was used. Then once it's finally dull, it sharpens right back up with 10 strokes on a stone. So the edge holding isn't similar, it's an order of magnitude better. A user would have to be asleep to not notice the difference, it's really that obvious. I like the very low maintenance and ease of maintenance.

I primarily sharpen with diamonds and ceramics. I haven't yet seen a steel that is hard to sharpen on these, unless it's got the geometry of a brick. Geometry I think is the primary factor in ease of sharpening, although if a steel is too soft, you can chase that burr forever. I can sharpen a hard high carbide steel much faster than a soft low carbide steel, all else being equal. Silicone carbide chews through everything pretty quickly as well.

Sorry for the long rant, I can't really make the comparison that you asked about, so I thought I'd give you general impressions. All my comments are for edge holding when cutting, so for hard usage, that would be another topic, but I'd still drag 3V into it...

 

[pinnah]

RustyRazor, re-post your question in the Outdoors sub-forum and you'll get a very different response. At 58Rc, I find 1095, 420HC and 12C27 rather interchangable. At 56Rc, I find all three will roll edges when taken too thin but the stainless gets gummy feeling on the stone and forms burrs worse than 1095 (or 1086). Note, for some applications, I see the justification for keeping the hardness lower but I generally always prefer these steels at 58rc.

It's interesting to me that people will easily pay $100 for a production 1095 knife but they consider 420HC and 12C27 to be "cheap" and thus inferior steels. In use, I can't tell the difference among the three at 58Rc other than 1095 discolors. Perception of value is an odd thing.

Ebidis, I find there to be a bigger difference between Schrade USA 440A and Buck's 420HC than I do between Buck's 420HC and Opinel's 12C27. Also find a bigger difference between Buck's 420HC and Case's 420HC.

On both Buck 420HC and Opinel 12C27, I convex the edge with the apex at 20 DPS (per the Lansky system, which may mean slightly less than that). This gives a reasonably durable (for my use) edge with decent slicing. Both steels can be taken lower, obviously, but I find them more prone to rolling or dinging under hard use. I've never chipped either and this includes plunge cutting metal cans and the like.

 

[Ankerson]

It's interesting to me that people will easily pay $100 for a production 1095 knife but they consider 420HC and 12C27 to be "cheap" and thus inferior steels. In use, I can't tell the difference among the three at 58Rc other than 1095 discolors. Perception of value is an odd thing.

People don't understand what they are buying for the most part, they are going off misconceptions and marketing, also some really bad information like some of the posts in this thread and lastly urban legends.

Basically to keep things simple in stainless steels 440A/B and C (.75% carbon content or higher) is really the starting point of a grade that can actually develop carbides in an amount that will make a difference, that's other than Iron Carbides that all steels have but we really don't count those.

Preferably 1% and up and that's with the alloy present to develop the carbides in enough percentage to actually make a difference.

 

[bld522]

Now start looking at the typical knives that are made from it (12c27/420HC) they are low cost knives and as we all know they sell as with anything that is lower cost.

All depends on how you define "typical":

Source: http://www.laguiole-french-knives.c...-with-its-ivory-of-mammoth-s-tusk-handle.html

 

[Ankerson]

All depends on how you define "typical":

Source: http://www.laguiole-french-knives.c...-with-its-ivory-of-mammoth-s-tusk-handle.html

There are exceptions to everything like $2,000 Customs in 1095 and 1080 for example.

Typical is what MOST people buy and what we normally see and that's going to be in the lower range of the cost scale.

 

[bld522]

There are exceptions to everything like $2,000 Customs in 1095 and 1080 for example.

Typical is what MOST people buy and what we normally see and that's going to be in the lower range of the cost scale.

I know, I know. I couldn't help myself. Having said that, 12C27 seems to be the alloy normally used in the construction of Laguiole knives. And the better made ones aren't cheap.

 

[Ankerson]

I know, I know. I couldn't help myself. Having said that, 12C27 seems to be the alloy normally used in the construction of Laguiole knives. And the better made ones aren't cheap.

N690 is another steel that's also extremely popular over in Europe.

 

[bld522]

N690 is another steel that's also extremely popular over in Europe.

Very popular, and it's a decent cutlery steel from my experience. I had a Benchmade Rant Bowie made out of N690. It cut like a laser and held an edge for a decent amount of time. Benchmade eventually replaced N690 with 440C in their Rant series.

 

[Ankerson]

Very popular, and it's a decent cutlery steel from my experience. I had a Benchmade Rant Bowie made out of N690. It cut like a laser and held an edge for a decent amount of time.

It's like VG-10, good general lower cost steel.

 

[bld522]

Roger that. The fact of the matter is, I'm a real lightweight when it comes to actually using my knives. I work in an office and most of my cutting chores can be accomplished with my Micra and a pair of ordinary office shears. I carry an EDC every day, but I rarely have need of it. I have a pretty good selection of EDCs and I like to rotate through them frequently, so none of my knives get dull very often . . . including my 12C27 Laguiole. So while I'm as interested in the latest super steel as the next guy, whether I'm carrying a knife constructed of M390 or 420HC doesn't really make that much difference to me. But I like to stay on top of your posts, Jim. They keep me sharp . . . so to speak!