2007 Blade Show Cutting Competition- Why no Busse?

[Tyrkon Lawson]

They are nice looking Sam.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

This is my posting for a month all rolled up into 12 hours. Now the wife and kids are pulling me out to go shopping. So my last word is:

The Busse folder is hands down the best knife on the planet.

 

[Sam Salvati]

Now how would you say they would do against a Busse Combat knife? One that is as close to the same dimensions as possible? In all categories?

chopping
slicing/cutting
prying
batonning
corrosion resistance
edge retention
ease of sharpening
etc...

I could not say better or worse without sounding biased. But IMO in all categories "as good" or "better", except maybe due to the lack of one of those coatings, corrosion resistance. But as bare steel, i wash it when i am done with soap and water, then set against my wall no oil, hasn't rusted yet.

People who know me on this forum know I do not make a habbit of attacking others. So that is not where I am headed.

I am just curious. You being a knife maker and not being impressed by Busse knives... So I am wondering then what you consider to be the best characteristics and how much that is worth.

I see a lot of customs I would love to have. But they are way out of my price range. But a Busse knife, which I see as "semi-custom" is something I can swing.

And I agree that a good knife is worth the $$$! And a good knife does not have to be pricey either.

I am not unimpressed with the busse knives, like i said i took back all my statments to the contrary and agreed with your statement

"As far as factory edge goes: Jerry's knives come with an edge that cuts well, chops well, and is very strong. Sure you can thin it out to slice better but then you give up a little in strength. And I mean a little. So the factory edge (with few exceptions) is not designed to be the ultimate slicer. Busee Combat does not make competition slicers. Many other awesome makers make thick knives as well. And they cut pretty darn good as well."

What i consider to be the best characteristics and how much they are worth is different for everyone, some can justify dropping a couple hundred on a busse, some can't. Some can justify a custom, some can't. You are very true when you say

"I see a lot of customs I would love to have. But they are way out of my price range. But a Busse knife, which I see as "semi-custom" is something I can swing."

But I would say try going custom atleast once, you think the busses are addicting? If i had the incling do chop bricks and smash bottles and spray spraks when i chop rocks and cut phonebooks and stuff i would get a wal mart 5$ machete and go to town and chuck it in the dumpster when done. I would buy a busse if i wanted a knife that could clear brush, and do hard knifely duties and do them everyday. But i would also have a knife i made FIRST, that's just me though:foot:, i am long spoiled for any production knife now i have tasted custom.


Water under the bridge guys, thanks.

 

[Cougar Allen]

You got the last word, aww you want a cookie?

 

[Sam Salvati]

Is this the "seax" ? How thick is it at the spine? I must admit, I like the way it looks here in the pix. :thumbup: Why didn't you post these earlier instead of looking for an argument? This is where it's at... Knife talk with positive & constructive qualities. Thanks for posting the pix. That's a good lookin' short sword/chopper.

Yeah, I tend to get lost in an argument sometimes without even remembering what it was about, damn internet........

Thanks Jaxx, it is a little less than 1/4 thick at the base, tapering towards the tip. It has an almost slightly forged in diamond cross section in that the center ridge you can see is the thickest part. The forward edge tapers down muchmore than the spine bevel though, and then tapers again on the polished part. The customer who bought that one cut pumpkins, 1 inch thick oak branches, bottles filled with water he loves it and I could not be more proud, he has some exceptional peices in his collection but tells me he shows anyone that one first. Has recently informed me a few weeks ago he had to touch up the edge for the very first time, only a couple strokes and it was back as it was when i sent it. That seax is my best work yet, Amboyna burl for the handles dyed blood red, hammer finish spine with satin finish edge, nice leather sheath. Oops rambling again, don't get me talking about knife or swordmaking.

They are nice looking Sam.

Thanks Tyrkon!

 

[idahoskunk]

I missed that but I sure wish I had the know how and equipment to make my own.
.....................


Here is another way I see knives. I like my knives to be like my Glock 21. Perhaps it isn't the prettiest, most accurate, best ergos, etc... But it sure does a pretty darn good all aroud job IMHO. And for the record I love the looks. You have perhaps seen the various tests done on Glocks. Like throwing them out of an airplane, sticking them in the mud for long periods of time, etc... only to rise from the dead and perform. That's how I see my Busse knives.

a glock 21 !!! come on, everybody knows those are crap, come on over and drink koolaid with the glock 23 owners... btw you need more light under your picture and you mispeled a couple words.


.

 

[leatherman]

Why is it that anytime its stated that someone doesn't like Busse knives it turns into a rubberband shootout at the elementary school cafeteria?


Busses are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of knife users. If in fact a person actually does use a 400 or 500 dollar knife to pry with, cut up bricks and dig ditches with as mentioned earlier and multiple times in this thread doesn't that just call into question why they didn't buy a crowbar, shovel and hammer then have Ranger knives build a great knife that cuts? Then take the rest of the money to go out on a date with?

I ask this in jest of course and with no malice but the Busse fan club has killed the horse, beaten it and sent it out to the glue factory.

On a relevant note how about that new Browning Chopper I hear its a real beast.

Welcome back Chef! I thought you'd asked Spark to shut your account down? Glad you cooled down and came back to the fold.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

a glock 21 !!! come on, everybody knows those are crap, come on over and drink koolaid with the glock 23 owners... btw you need more light under your picture and you mispeled a couple words.


.

You damn HOGS are so fussy and hard to please!

 

[LFree]

Tyrkon,
Did you strip the coating from a sabre ground FFFBM (the pic in post #178)? That sure does look cool, whatever it is. Maybe tell us about that knife a little if you get a second... Do you prefer that configuration to the FBM LE for a particular reason?

Hey don't you all know that real koolaid junkies carry a Glock 20 in 10mm super death ray, not those sissy .45s and .40s (ducks...oh wait, this discussion belongs on THR)....

Sam,

Your sword looks like a huge wharnclife! Me Likey! It sorta reminds me of the word of Tim Lively and Tia Goo. Did you through harden the whole thing, or does it have a dif. temper?

----

Truly, this very long thread is quite interesting. I've always been intrigued by INFI and it's performance relative to other steels. I am no kool-aid drinker but I have regularly bought Busses since 1999 (starting with numero uno...the basic 9). I thought this thread was going to get real wild and get locked, but I am glad to see everyone warming up to each other. As many of you wisely stated, we are all on the same side as knife enthuisiasts. Of the posters here that really impressed me was Tyrkon, who really keep a calm head and talked through this. Nice job Bud!

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Tyrkon,
Did you strip the coating from a sabre ground FFFBM (the pic in post #178)? That sure does look cool, whatever it is. Maybe tell us about that knife a little if you get a second... Do you prefer that configuration to the FBM LE for a particular reason?


Truly, this very long thread is quite interesting. I've always been intrigued by INFI and it's performance relative to other steels. I am no kool-aid drinker but I have regularly bought Busses since 1999 (starting with numero uno...the basic 9). I thought this thread was going to get real wild and get locked, but I am glad to see everyone warming up to each other. As many of you wisely stated, we are all on the same side as knife enthuisiasts. Of the posters here that really impressed me was Tyrkon, who really keep a calm head and talked through this. Nice job Bud!

FFBM: Honestly it was the first configuration of the FBM that I was able to get my hands on at a super price due to the kindness of another Busse user. I had a friend's CG FBM for a while at it was awesome. Much lighter but still a beast. But the extra weight on the FFBM is a plus to me. Not realy heavy IMHO. I can't afford the LEs unless I sell off my other knives or go into credit card debt. So the FFBM landed in my lap.

I use all my blades pretty hard and sooner or later the coating wears. Plus I actually like bare steel. All I did was use a basic paint stripper from Ace Hardware to get the rest of the coating off. Then I used a scotch-brite drill attachment to give it a decent satin finish. This is great for touching up the blade from time to time. And will not heat up the blade much if not done too fast. Works great though.

Keeping calm: I have learned that it is easier to make a point or share ideas if things are not turned personal. I think everyone has something to contribute one way or another. And, like people here have stated, we are all here for our interest in knives. :thumbup:

 

[Sam Salvati]

Thanks Lfree, i am a HUGE fan of Tim Lively, he got me started on the hammer finish design, forging close to final shape and all that. That one was through hardened, very stiff as it was a bit on the thick side, definately what you would call a "sheild splitter" back in the day.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Truly, this very long thread is quite interesting. I've always been intrigued by INFI and it's performance relative to other steels. I am no kool-aid drinker but I have regularly bought Busses since 1999 (starting with numero uno...the basic 9). I thought this thread was going to get real wild and get locked, but I am glad to see everyone warming up to each other. As many of you wisely stated, we are all on the same side as knife enthuisiasts. Of the posters here that really impressed me was Tyrkon, who really keep a calm head and talked through this. Nice job Bud!

i appreciate your observations here. i may have been short in my posts, but i was calm the whole time.

i used to stay far more patient with these threads, but it gets old, ya know?

every couple months this comes up. i stayed away from this one until some friends were being attacked. not that i came to the rescue in any way, but felt compelled to take a side.


and tyrkon is truly one of the best guys on any forum here. period.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

i appreciate your observations here. i may have been short in my posts, but i was calm the whole time.

i used to stay far more patient with these threads, but it gets old, ya know?

every couple months this comes up. i stayed away from this one until some friends were being attacked. not that i came to the rescue in any way, but felt compelled to take a side.


and tyrkon is truly one of the best guys on any forum here. period.

You are good people bro! And I completely agree with you. It gets old. So I am now just trying to have reasonable discussions with other knife nuts and try to ignore those other posts. And it seems to have worked pretty good here. We all pretty much seemed to settle down and get back to business. Although I fear we have drifted a tad from the original post.

 

[bearcut]

So,
I would like to get back to my origional thread starter about the competition.

The M4 steel knives, that won at the Bladewest competition ,could chop through 2x4's then do several other cutting and slicing tasks, which require a very sharp blade, and then chop 2x4's again. The 'competition edge profile', you guys seem to think exists in the winning knives, seems to work just fine for about everything ,so I don't want to hear about how 'different' they are from a Busse. Even if they are a different grind, these knives are chopping like an ax and slicing like a scalpel so what difference does it make? Sheesh! Sounds like a winner to me! Grind a Busse to the same profile and enter a competition if your that worried about it.

Here is another link to the course, which also explains in more detail what the contestants had to do.
http://www.bladesports.org/past_events.htm

Several Busse owners in this thread mentioned that they thought Busse's could do some things, but were not necessarily able to do one task, then the other. i.e. chop wood, then slice a tomato. Their reasoning usually entailed edge grind and the idea that an edge that can chop, can't slice well. Maybe these Busse owners are right about there knives. Maybe theyr'e not.

Busse's manilla rope cutting tests are still impressive. He and Cold Steel pride themselves on multiple rope cutting. The tests performed at the recent Bladeshow contests are much more varied and simulate survival skill knifework.
I am not going to be cutting manilla rope over and over and over[ !] in a survial situation. I am going to be doing many chopping and slicing chores and I will want my knife to stay sharp.


INFI has been around for what, 10 years? That is a long time in the steel business. There has been a lot of technological progress in metalurgy since then. It may very well have been the ultimate non-stainless steel for many years, but things change. The Bladewest winners all used a new steel, M4. Maybe it's the new king, maybe it's not.
It's time to find out.

Maybe it's time for a Busse owner, or Jerry himself, to enter one of these competitions and show us if INFI still has what it takes to claim top knife steel. If nobody steps up, then it is an indicator that faith has been lost by the Busse bunch. I understand how many of you would feel if your collections of INFI suddenly were relegated to second, [or third] best.

Jerry has an 'Open invitation' to any knifemaker to submit their knifes to his test.
Bladesports International has an open invitation to any knifemaker to enter their contests.

If Bladesports Internationals contest is so easy, then why not enter a Busse and take top honors?


C'mon! Hey INFI might win! If it does, then at least we all will know which steel is still the king.

In the meantime, talk is cheap. And I'm getting pretty impressed with the steels I see winning contests. And I'm not seeing any INFI.

 

[Kohai999]

In the meantime, talk is cheap. And I'm getting pretty impressed with the steels I see winning contests. And I'm not seeing any INFI.

Basically...from what you have posted....you don't have much of a clue.

It is not the steel...it is a combination of the steel, the knife, and the cutter...EVERY TIME...end of story.

If you want to....and have the ability, which I doubt....you could have a Battle Mistress custom ground at the Busse Factory, or better yet, have Bill Seigle work it to your specific requirements...then go cut in one of the ICCT competitions....NOTHING is stopping you.

I was the only non-maker to compete at the OKCA two years running, when they still did the contest, and I whiffed, both times, and it wasn't the knife, it was me.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[bearcut]

Then why buy good steel?
Why all the talk about toughness, wear resistance and hardness?
Just practice a lot with an Old Hickory, is that it?

Of course technique is important, I never said it wasn't.

Busses either rule or they don't, and no amount of blogging on this or any other forum is going to change the fact that INFI is not winning knife contests.

As far as entering an INFI steel knife in a contest myself, why would I? YOU guys are the ones enamored with them! As for me, I'm digg'en the M4 steel! As soon as some production knives come out with an affordable version, I'm buying one of those!


At last count, over 3800 knife owners have viewed this thread. I'l bet a lot are watching to see if INFI enters or wins any contests from now on.

It's 2008. Powder steel is here. INFI is no longer #1. Get over it.

 

[mikeymoto]

I believe that as with most sports the athlete determines the winner. Furthermore it seems that the goal of BladeSports competitions is not to be a proving-ground for different knife steels. I would be interested in trying one; maybe if they do it at Blade West again next year. I was browsing the BladeSports web site and it is not clear that I, a non-Knifemaker, could use a knife made of INFI even if I wanted to:

Non-knifemaker Members must use an approved knife made by a Knifemaker Member or an approved production knife, or an approved knife of his own making.

(quote taken from http://www.bladesports.org/cretification.htm [sic])

I sent an email asking for details about which "production" (whatever they take that to mean) knives are permitted, and also who are the knifemaker members whose knives one could use, and furthermore how knives are approved. Hopefully I'll hear something back!

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Would it make for a better test if the same skilled person tested each knife at these shows? That way skill differences would be null. Not going to happen but I am just curious.

bearcut: Why Jerry or staff does not enter these... well you have to ask him/them to get the real answer. Otherwise we are speculating here.

Why don't I? It just never really occured to me. The knives have lived up to all MY expectations. I have a Glock 21 also. But I am not going to enter a hand gun comp. to try to prove how good it is. I think it would be really fun, however.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

I have some questions.

How many chops do these top competetors need to chop a 2x4 in half?
I like how they set that up.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

If Bladesports Internationals contest is so easy, then why not enter a Busse and take top honors?

Well it might look easy to you but I think these guys are doing some pretty challenging tests. Again, looks like great fun.