$250 for a taiwan knife?

[snyper1ad]

I have handled several Taiwan made spyderco's and I hate to say it but they are as good a quality as the USA made if not better. That being said I prefer to buy the American knives because I like supporting US jobs.

 

[pry]

We've established that the quality from taiwan is excellent. The quality was never the topic. Problem is the price and material is equal to the u.s. made knife. I wanted to get my father a chaparral for fathers day, its over $100, and maybe its just me but when I spend over $100 for a knife id rather not have to try and explain and justify the made in taiwan part to my dad who probably will think its a $30 knife.

Zt560. Made in usa. How can they do it if its not possible? Everyone likes to say it would cost double for spyderco to make it in the usa. I don't buy that.

I really like the new spyderco flipper but I will not spend made in usa money on a taiwan made knife.

 

[mattmanyam]

Its not a matter of saving money...

Spyderco/Golden is at/exceeding its current manufacturing capacity (look at the shortages of the Yo/Para/Ti Millie)

Sal has said that they are expanding capacity, but the new machinery has a long lead time.

I would prefer my favorite knife company do things the way they see fit, as they have a proven track record of success.

 

[marthinus]

...................not this thread again......................
im just going to copy what someone posted on the spyderco wall on facebook from june 7th



Spyderco Paul,
We’re happy to reply. We believe in being as transparent as possible. Sal has had many public discussions about our models from Taiwan and I’ll try to share some of his words with you here. It’s important to remember that Taiwan isn’t China and we should be careful to not confuse "Taiwan" knives made in China with those actually made in Taiwan. We work with two small family-owned makers in Taiwan, both were handpicked by Sal. Our makers there are exceptional and take great pride in their work. Wages in Taiwan are about the same as the US or a tad higher. Their engineers, knifemakers, CNC operators, grinders, etc. live as we do. It's the US Dollar / Taiwan Dollar valuation that makes the difference. There is no steel production in Taiwan; we ship sheets of U.S. steel to our makers. The blades are cut out (laser), heat-treated, ground and polished in Taiwan. There is a very strong following for our Taiwan models that seems to grow every day. Have you handled any of our Taiwan models? If you haven’t, I would encourage you to before you make judgment. If you have any other questions please feel free to post. Sal and I participate regularly on our forums and I’m always lurking nearby here on facebook. Thank you for posting. - Kristi
June 8 at 12:09pm · Unlike · 3


Michael Spofford I think it is also important to point out that Taiwan is multi-party democracy. As such, the Taiwanese are respresented in their government and enjoy the same freedoms that we do here in the United States. Fair wages are demanded by their people, just like in any democracy, and they have the right to be paid for their work and not suffer any pre-conceived notions that their work is of less quality because they happen to live in southeast Asia.
June 8 at 1:00pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

I highlighted the important stuff. For those that question the price. Economics 101 people. Supply and demand and through in the exchange rate. US $ aint doing to well against some international markets these days.

PS. Sal has mentioned if it was possible all production would be done in US. BUT IT CANT! They dont have the assets.

Some people take the made in USA a bit far. No disrespect, but those living outside of USA dont complain as much having to buy made in USA rather than their own country. Educate yourself on global economics and politics and you will soon realise what countries are good and who have some obscure political crap.

PPS. Do you think all the alloys in a steel are mined in one country of origin? Nothing is truly made solely in one country so take a chill pill.

O and Chipped Karambit this post is not directed at you, thanks for the great info.

 

[Frozy]

It's a free market and we have our own choices. If you don't mind paying more for something that is made in the US, it's your choice. I pay for quality, regardless of where they are made from. If any other country can produce goods that are of equal or better quality than those made in the US, they have every right to markup the prices.
I'm not even trying to change anybody's mindset, but at least show proper respect to manufacturers in different countries. I'm sure those workers in Sypderco's Taichung factory are working extremely hard to meet Sal's expectations.

 

[hank_rearden]

let's go to nuts and bolts. i'm not warm to flippers simply because of the ball bearings. i have a great hesitancy to open up my knives (come to think of it, i never did.) the screw-on construction seems great but i see it as a feature to make servicing by a professional much easier, not do-it-yourself repair and modification. with ordinary pivots and washers, i'm comfortable with them and i expect them to last a lifetime without ever unscrewing them. that's it.

but with ball bearings, let's just say i've worked with them a lot before. i'm no slouch when it comes to repair and disassembly but i'd like to avoid it with my knives.

 

[mwhich50]

Competition is good. Good overseas manufacturers help keep American manufacturers honest. I have to say, my Sage was perfect. My Para and Manix XL both had small light rubs on one side of the blade, almost like vice marks. I love all three though and have no regrets. $250 for a Spyderco? A Spyderco flipper? Not for me. I am resistant to change, lol. There are still a half dozen great Spydees for less than $150 that I want to get first.

 

[petersu33]

Interesting....for some Taiwanese, Taiwan made knifes are always the best to buy. only CRK is worth buying that produced in America. ZT? Strider? They would never consider....

 

[mley1]

I have a Gayle Bradley, and a Sage 1. Both from Taiwan. Both exhibit exceptional fit and finish. I'll step out on a limb and say their fit and finish is actually a bit better than my PM2's from Golden. I like them a lot. And, I would not hesitate to buy another Spyderco from Taiwan.

 

[mley1]

ZT? Strider? They would never consider....

I don't know about ZT. I know the ZT are USA made. But, their parent company, Kershaw, produces numerous models in China. They are good quality, but from China.

 

[pinetreebbs]

man im so sick of these kinds of threads...i usually dont reply and let them die. but ive had a few coors so ill add my 2cents.

first off if you cant distinguish Taiwan from China you probably shouldnt own a knife (lord knows not a gun). Go buy some books instead.

If you've never handled a spyderco knife made from there dont talk a bunch of smack, its truly childish.

ive handled both taichung and golden models. couldnt even tell the difference.

I understand you want your hard earned dollars to go to good folks of the US of A so if a knife offends you that much because its made elsewhere then just DONT buy it. go make it yourself. better yet take all your angst and write it in a marble booklet (that was made in china) with a BIC pen (that was made in Brazil) and leave it off the forums.

sorry i couldnt just let this thread die.

Agree, Tiawan, living free and prosperous, has been giving China the finger for some time.

In 1895, military defeat forced China to cede Taiwan to Japan. Taiwan reverted to Chinese control after World War II. Following the Communist victory on the mainland in 1949, 2 million Nationalists fled to Taiwan and established a government using the 1947 constitution drawn up for all of China. Over the next five decades, the ruling authorities gradually democratized and incorporated the local population within the governing structure. In 2000, Taiwan underwent its first peaceful transfer of power from the Nationalist to the Democratic Progressive Party. Throughout this period, the island prospered and became one of East Asia's economic "Tigers." The dominant political issues continue to be the relationship between Taiwan and China - specifically the question of Taiwan's eventual status - as well as domestic political and economic reform.

Bold and Underline added by me.

 

[JNewell]

Taiwan was not chosen because it is a low-cost, low-quality production facility. It was chosen because of the quality of the production, which has been proven in many different models of several years.

So I get all excited because Spyderco finally comes and decides to release a flipper folder. YAY!!! then I see its Made in Taiwan? Ok so that was a little disappointing but then im like, so what? It will be cheaper and I can buy a couple instead of one. Then I see that the pre order price on these things is over $250. WTF? Sorry guys but I wont pay $250 for a CRKT and I aint gonna pay that much for a Taiwan knife even if there is a hole in the blade. I hate to say it Spyderco but If your trying to compete in the bearing operated flipper folder world, that was an epic fail. Come on Sal, quit taking plays out of the lynn thompson play book.

 

[The Mastiff]

Well, unless I'm mistaken purpledc made an overly opinionated statement based on ignorance, with no experience with the product, then made no further posts in the thread he began. One he knew would be divisive, and probably flammable especially here in this forum. What does that usually signify?

I'm surprised to see so many people responding to an obvious troll.

Some people take the made in USA a bit far.

Yeah, I have to agree. I'm a patriotic American too. I want the best product for the money regardless of location manufactured.

The assumption there is Spyderco would sell the knife for the same price (or perhaps less) if made in Golden or Japan, and that's simply not true. It would be more expensive.

If my mind serves me, Sal posted $1 in U.S. manufacturing cost is $.70 in Taiwan and $1.20 in Japan. So, if the MSRP in Taiwan is $400, would you be more willing to buy the knife if it had a $575 MSRP and made in Golden (~$350 street price), or $690 MSRP made in Japan ($415+ street)?

Kreole, I agree with what you are saying though I don't recall seeing that particular info. I do recall Sal stating the knife manufacturing in Taiwan was not saving any money by having the knives made there. It was done strictly because of the vendors quality of work, and ability to reliably meet schedules, have the highly trained staff and management, and equipment necessary to work with these materials. Not every production facility can handle this demanding, precision work . Unless someone wants to accuse Sal of lying that about says it all. From what I've seen he's right, not that I doubted Sal for an instant.

Yes, I do recall the days where "made in japan" was synonymous with cheap, not as well made products as American. In fact, it became an almost trendy saying talking about everything from basic cheap junk dumped on the market, to a house that gangsters blew up in a hollywood movie . Boom!( sound effect) Gangster 1 says: " Musta been made in Japan", "heh heh".

Well, you get the picture. This was 20 to 30 years after WW2 and the experience with Japan was still fresh in our collective minds. How that compares to Taiwan is beyond me. We are talking about a very modern, democratic country that has high level, technologically advanced trade with the whole world. That includes PRC. To feel superior for no apparent reason to another really isn't a sign of intelligence. Confusing them with a communist country of over a billion and a half people doesn't exactly show a great deal of intelligence either.

Everything has gone up in price greatly the last few years. For the majority of us our income hasn't kept up. I can completely understand saying "i can't afford X,Y,Z, and Q knives anymore". I understand that really well. In fact, I can't afford X,Y,Z, and S knives myself.

For me to pick out a knife I've never seen in person, or held in my hand much less used and then complain about the country it was made in causing it to not be worth the asking price seems a bit on the ridiculously, idiotically confused side to me.

Joe

 

[kreole]

Well, unless I'm mistaken purpledc made an overly opinionated statement based on ignorance, with no experience with the product, then made no further posts in the thread he began. One he knew would be divisive, and probably flammable especially here in this forum. What does that usually signify?

I'm surprised to see so many people responding to an obvious troll.


Yeah, I have to agree. I'm a patriotic American too. I want the best product for the money regardless of location manufactured.



Kreole, I agree with what you are saying though I don't recall seeing that particular info. I do recall Sal stating the knife manufacturing in Taiwan was not saving any money by having the knives made there. It was done strictly because of the vendors quality of work, and ability to reliably meet schedules, have the highly trained staff and management, and equipment necessary to work with these materials. Not every production facility can handle this demanding, precision work . Unless someone wants to accuse Sal of lying that about says it all. From what I've seen he's right, not that I doubted Sal for an instant.

Yes, I do recall the days where "made in japan" was synonymous with cheap, not as well made products as American. In fact, it became an almost trendy saying talking about everything from basic cheap junk dumped on the market, to a house that gangsters blew up in a hollywood movie . Boom!( sound effect) Gangster 1 says: " Musta been made in Japan", "heh heh".

Well, you get the picture. This was 20 to 30 years after WW2 and the experience with Japan was still fresh in our collective minds. How that compares to Taiwan is beyond me. We are talking about a very modern, democratic country that has high level, technologically advanced trade with the whole world. That includes PRC. To feel superior for no apparent reason to another really isn't a sign of intelligence. Confusing them with a communist country of over a billion and a half people doesn't exactly show a great deal of intelligence either.

Everything has gone up in price greatly the last few years. For the majority of us our income hasn't kept up. I can completely understand saying "i can't afford X,Y,Z, and Q knives anymore". I understand that really well. In fact, I can't afford X,Y,Z, and S knives myself.

For me to pick out a knife I've never seen in person, or held in my hand much less used and then complain about the country it was made in causing it to not be worth the asking price seems a bit on the ridiculously, idiotically confused side to me.

Joe

I know this is away from your point, but if you were curious to read it, here's the post I referenced. I had Japan right but Taiwan is $.75 not $1...so close!


http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php?p=546507&postcount=16

Hi Mgbehard,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

The cost of products in general and Knives in particular can be very confusing. Especially now with great disparity in costs due to country of manufacture.

It's easy to see why most knife manufacturers had moved much of their production to China. It's very difficult to compete costwise.

As Jay_Ev wisely mentioned, it's also a controversial subject. I would like to avoid the political view in this thread if possible.

Knifemaking skill varies greatly through out the world. Also the ability for knife perople to "see" the differences in quality also varies. As one gets more involved in knives, one learns more about them. The world of knives is a very deep complex world if one chooses to explore. As one learns more about them, different areas become more important. There are visitors to this forum that actually pay attention to how much carbon is in the blade steel.

$1.00 in the US:

Costs $1.35 to make something in Europe as the Euro is valued higher. Add shipping, duties, tooling costs, etc. which increases the cost.

Costs $1.20 to make something in Japan.

Costs about $.75 to make something in Taiwan.

Costs about $.30 to make something in Chnina.

There are in fact quality differences as well as material cost differences that make the cost equation more complicated.

The US, Europe and Japan produce very high quality blade steels.

We ship US steel to Taiwan.

China produces it's own steel, but as yet, it's not exotic chemistry, though they produce some good steels and they are improving.

Our margins are relatively fixed. Because we might be able to "get more" for a product does not mean that we do. We feel that "to to charge as much as the market will bear" is not best.....for us.

The Tenacious could probably command a higher price. The Dragonfly is probably a better deal based on our costs. The maker that makes the Dragonfly has already proven over time that his quality is very good and the knife will perform for a very long time. The maker that makes the Tenacious is very good, but we've not had the time element yet to tell long term quality.

Hope that helps.

sal

The other reason I wanted to bring it up is Sal says their margins are relatively fixed, meaning they aren't making it in Taiwan and marking it up to "U.S.-manufactured pricing", as so many posts in this thread assume.

Here's another where he says it again but with a little more detail:

Hi 4077th,

I'll try to answer your question.

Spyderco operates on relatively fixed margins. We take all of the costs to produce a model, add our margin, which is relatively small and establish our MSRP. Distibutors and dealers margins are also included in that MSRP.

This model was expensive to make. The price established is based on the cost. Because you cannot see the cost, doesn' mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it.

To compare our Bushcraft model to a Mora is, in my opinion, somewhat ignorant. Kind of like comparing an expensive Spyderco model an inexpensive Wal-mart Chinese knife, or comparing a Honda to a Ferrari. you might also say the Ferrari is overpriced, but to those that can see the value, it is not.

Both the inexpensive knife and the Honda "will do the same thing", but there is a large difference in the way they do it.

I hope that helps in your understanding.

sal

from http://www.spyderco.com/forums/show...Bushcraft-UK-announcement&p=544539#post544539

 

[Ryanol]

Every decision made running a business involves money - plain and simple.

To say that Taiwan is chosen simply because it's the best is only part of the statement. The full statement is "Taiwan is chosen because it's the best quality for the price".

Some companies choose to invest money in manufacturing in the USA, others choose to put more of it in their pocket....I don't care either way as long as they put a good quality product in my hands.

But it flabbergasts me to hear people with the "..it's not about the cost" chants - use your noodle once in a while folks.

 

[pry]

Some of us Patriotic Americans feel good about buying American made products. If you feel good about buying a $260 made in Taiwan knife then that's fine, but we all don't feel the same way. If given the choice I will buy American, especially when the price point is the same. I don't have to see and hold the knife to make that decision. The quality is not the issue. We are all fans of the product. The point isn't to complain but just to voice an opinion, that many of us like the product and design, but won't buy it and here's the reason why. Hopefully Spyderco is listening and will start producing more knives in the USA like the other knife companies that seem to have a larger commitment to US manufacturing.

 

[wsdavies]

The $250 price isn't nec. accurate. I've talked to my distributors about the Southard and they say they have no word from Spyderco on price or release date.

 

[Mr. Sogetsu]

I wish ignorant people would stop making threads like this. It has been rehashed quite a few times why spyderco does this. Next time search for an identical topic before you start another one.

 

[The Mastiff]

To say that Taiwan is chosen simply because it's the best is only part of the statement. The full statement is "Taiwan is chosen because it's the best quality for the price".

In addition there is the fact that there is less production capacity than there are customers wanting to schedule floor time. It's a pretty well known fact there is a shortage of facilities in the US that can do this kind of work. It got worse with the loss of Camillus. You can either wait, or go elsewhere.

Companies taking these jobs don't stay secret long, but try calling up Falkniven, or Benchmade, or Spyderco and ask them "who do you contract out to in XXX country as a vendor?", "I want to start a new line ( that will compete with you in sales and for production time BTW) of knives using the old Xflurberwinkendorf name that I bought in an asset sale". Unless you have a past, really good relationship with one of these CEO's you might be out of luck.

These guys schedule a year or more in advance. Some times longer. If you need a maker with special capacity that further limits the amount of available vendors. ( lasers, CNC, the right kind of heat treating equipment. The old conveyor belt going through a gas furnace and ending up coming out the other end into oil may work for some of the older, simpler steels but try to see what kind of performance you get with S30V, or S90V, much less a HSS, or one of the newer "steels" that require 3 tempers with cryo in between each one with soaks at 2270 F., + or - 10 degrees F.) Your company won't be the only company scheduling time for these vendors either. Not for long anyway once they have proven themselves and word gets around.

Spyderco has taken the slow but steady route in enlarging production capacity at Golden. Personally I'm glad they are. It seems more prudent than borrowing large sums of money to expand. Yes, large. Price a CNC mill some time. Etc, etc.

Kreole, that was good pull there. One thing I noticed is the dollar has changed drastically in value compared to the Euro, yen, and the other currencies we are talking about. In fact, things have gone crazy since then. It's more than I can do to figure out percentage changes but there have been some really important ones.

Joe

 

[PURPLEDC]

Listen guys, you got me wrong. I dont mind that its a taiwan made knife. I own a few import knives because usually they are a good bargain. But what I dont agree with is making something in taiwan or china and charging the same price as a knife made in america. There are a couple other companies that come to mind that produce both in the USA and overseas. The difference is that those companies price their product accordingly. If any of you think that producing something in Taiwan is anything other than cost cutting and increasing profit margins then your diluting yourself. Now people can act like a Spydie fanboy all they want. The fact of the matter is that positive feedback is not the only feedback that helps a company understand the demand of the public. But some of you have made it perfectly clear that you will swallow whatever spyderco feeds you. Hope you like the taste of chinese because it looks like your gonna be eating a lot of it. The funny thing is though is your gonna be eating ramen noodles on a steak budget. Enjoy!