4 months too long for a refund?

[Ferrari353]

They aren't the same thing, the Insingo in question is not a fake. To me, a more fitting comparison would be that you bought a used Spyder jacket, knew it was used, but only after a number of months noticed that it had its sleeves poorly re-stitched at some point. In a circumstance like that, an honest store has a return period. Inside that period they would accept the return, outside of the return period they no longer have any duty to accept the product back. In place of that, here on bladeforums, the rule is that "no deal is complete until both parties are satisfied". In light of this thread, perhaps the rule should be amended to include the phrase, "no backsies".

Granted, my example is more extreme, but the knife was represented as more than it was actually worth. If the seller didn't know that it had been oversharpened, that doesn't change the fact that it had been misrepresented.
It's not the buyer's fault for not being a CRK expert and knowing exactly what every knife should look like...

 

[ooitzoo]

They aren't the same thing, the Insingo in question is not a fake. To me, a more fitting comparison would be that you bought a used Spyder jacket, knew it was used, but only after a number of months noticed that it had its sleeves poorly re-stitched at some point. In a circumstance like that, an honest store has a return period. Inside that period they would accept the return, outside of the return period they no longer have any duty to accept the product back. In place of that, here on bladeforums, the rule is that "no deal is complete until both parties are satisfied". In light of this thread, perhaps the rule should be amended to include the phrase, "no backsies".

While I've agreed with you up until now. I will say that adding "no backsies" is a bit heavy handed. Basically, once you agree that you're happy the knife is yours.

But technically speaking, the pictures do show the blade portions that is missing, so very technically speaking, the seller did represent the item fairly. It's the buyer's responsibility to make sure what they see is what they want. if you see a blade with a broken tip, you can't buy it, and then return it four months later saying you didn't notice. Most stores around here have a limited time for you to return the purchase, usually around 3 months. Once that time is up, well it's too bad.

Additionally, the buyer/trader was happy. He did not notice, nor care about the missing steel. Although the knife isn't perfect, this flaw did not affect the buyer's opinion of the knife. It was only until he was alerted that it was missing steel that he wanted a refund- four months later. IMO, four months is too long to return a knife- the window is not open forever.

On the flip side, the seller did not represent the item as well as he should have, but he may not have known about it. Regardless, his pictures, as mentioned, do show the alteration in the knife. Morally speaking, the seller should return the money, maybe. However, realistically, the buyer lucked out on an item he should have checked. It's unfortunate, but I don't think the seller really owes anything to the buyer.

Seems like we are dealing with determining which of these sides are the "lesser of two evils."

Both parties have some level of responsibility.

Neither party is solely at fault.

I have a bad taste in my mouth on both ends of the transaction.

This story is a good reminder to us all to be VERY careful with selling and trading on the forums. I have had nothing but good experiences in the deals I have been involved in--I will keep my fingers crossed.

How is that no one is questioning any "alterations" that the OP may have made? Is it unreasonable to believe that a man who's story is that he doesn't know what a seb looks like might have also taken a kitchen pass-thru sharpener to it?

Granted, my example is more extreme, but the knife was represented as more than it was actually worth. If the seller didn't know that it had been oversharpened, that doesn't change the fact that it had been misrepresented.
It's not the buyer's fault for not being a CRK expert and knowing exactly what every knife should look like...

A couple of things:
* At no point did I represent a price. The deal was dictated by the buyer. Seems like he knew enough to determine a cash value.
* I've said this before, I did not misrepresent anything. The knife was listed as used / sharpened / etc. It's not like I went out and said its a new knife and it turned out to be badly used and abused.

You're missing that OP had it for four months and sent it off to another party whom I have no knowledge of. There are just too many variables at play here.

ADDENDUM: to make your example more fitting. You buy the jacket used (knowingly) wear it for a ski season / winter. You make alterations as necessary. Then try to sell it to your buddy who after some time tells you that he's not happy with some feature. You then take it back and go after the original seller.

 

[roughedges]

Granted, my example is more extreme, but the knife was represented as more than it was actually worth. If the seller didn't know that it had been oversharpened, that doesn't change the fact that it had been misrepresented.
It's not the buyer's fault for not being a CRK expert and knowing exactly what every knife should look like...

It wasn't misrepresented though, especially if ooitzoo knew of the change in profile, it would have been proper for the written description to include the change of profile. The picture clearly shows the change in blade profile for anyone who knows what to look for. Granted, I didn't see anything wrong with it myself until closely comparing it to the stock knife in one of the photos. But the same could go for any other member, buyer or seller, here who is not a CRK expert and so, in my opinion, such responsibility as there is must fall on both sides. For the most part there are individuals selling here, not businesses.

It is the seller's responsibility to accurately describe the knife in good faith and to the best of his/her knowledge and abilities. And it is the buyer's responsibility to do his due diligence and closely examine the knife before in any way indicating that the deal is completed. There is no judgement of Solomon here to make everything right in this situation. Unfortunately, someone gets the shaft and, given the time frame and finalization of the deal by both parties, I'm afraid it has to be the buyer.

 

[Bigfattyt]

What happened to a seller being honest and fully disclosing all information before selling to an unsuspecting buyer? I find it ridiculous that someone who has been on these forums for 3 years and over 2k posts had no idea the sebenza was oversharpened to the point where there is no longer any belly left on the blade. Literally the only way you can not notice the difference is if you have never ever seen a photo of a stock insingo. Its dishonest to label such a blade as "lightly used" and to push it off on someone who may or may not have known better. OP was at fault here for being ignorant and it will cost him.

I would have to say. I have been on the forum for over 3 years and have more than 2k post. I have seen many pictures of this model of knife. From those photo's I can't say I would have noticed anything. I might not have noticed anything in hand either, unless I had another to compare it to. Unless, that is, the grind looked off. One artifact of a drastically over sharpened or reshaped blade is that the bevel will look wider on the edge, especially toward the tip. I did not notice that artifact from the pictures, but if the blade had been to the spa, they could fix that and re-blast.

I don't have a pony in this show, but I do think that 4 months is way too long for a refund.

If the blade shape is that drastically different from stock, some one, at some point in the sale chain, did misrepresent the condition. No way of knowing where in the line that happened for me, so I am out.

 

[Ferrari353]

It wasn't misrepresented though, especially if ooitzoo knew of the change in profile, it would have been proper for the written description to include the change of profile. The picture clearly shows the change in blade profile for anyone who knows what to look for. Granted, I didn't see anything wrong with it myself until closely comparing it to the stock knife in one of the photos. But the same could go for any other member, buyer or seller, here who is not a CRK expert and so, in my opinion, such responsibility as there is must fall on both sides. For the most part there are individuals selling here, not businesses.

It is the seller's responsibility to accurately describe the knife in good faith and to the best of his/her knowledge and abilities. And it is the buyer's responsibility to do his due diligence and closely examine the knife before in any way indicating that the deal is completed. There is no judgement of Solomon here to make everything right in this situation. Unfortunately, someone gets the shaft and, given the time frame and finalization of the deal by both parties, I'm afraid it has to be the buyer.

I don't think the seller is completely to blame, but it seems like everybody here is trying to lay all the blame on the buyer. It's entirely possible that the buyer or the guy he sold it to could have altered it. I don't really see much of a difference between the two knives in the picture, but if the pictures from the earlier sales show that it's the same, then that somewhat proves that it was already like that.

 

[roughedges]

While I've agreed with you up until now. I will say that adding "no backsies" is a bit heavy handed. Basically, once you agree that you're happy the knife is yours.

I said that flippantly, I admit. What I was thinking of was a buyer who claimed that he was happy and then, for whatever reason, at some later date changed his mind and decided to take back his finalization of the deal. If that became precedent it opens the door for all sorts of possible abuse of the system further down the road. Particularly between individuals, "I'm happy" should equal deal done in my opinion, end of story.

 

[ooitzoo]

I said that flippantly, I admit. What I was thinking of was a buyer who claimed that he was happy and then, for whatever reason, at some later date changed his mind and decided to take back his finalization of the deal. If that became precedent it opens the door for all sorts of possible abuse of the system further down the road. Particularly between individuals, "I'm happy" should equal deal done in my opinion, end of story.

Completely agreed. Anyone who's done deals with me (and there are LOTS on this forum) will attest that I always ask "are you happy with the knife?" or "did this meet with your expectations?" at the end of a deal. The idea is that its an opportunity to confirm the end of the trade OR raise any issues you may have. If the answer is "yes, I am happy" then we move on and leave feedback for one another.

 

[ooitzoo]

I should add that even FleaBay won't allow you to demand a refund after 4-5 months. I believe their standard is 90-days.

 

[mley1]

Seems to me that after both parties gave positive feed back to each other, and both indicated they were happy with the trade, the trade is done. Isn't that the rule on BF? Trying to get a refund after 4 mos of ownership is ridiculous in my view.

 

[Ken44]

From the initial trade thread:

Very Lightly Used CRK Small Sebenza Insigno - Purchased this a while back. Never really used it. Listing as used due to blemish on Ti from storage and since I have had it in pocket twice. Otherwise, perfect lock up / F&F / function.
***PICS TO BE POSTED IN THE MORNING***

"Never really used it. Listed as used due to blemish on Ti from storage and since I have had it in pocket twice".
This makes is sound like a knife that has a blade in great condition.
Very bad description IMO.
It may have only been in the second owners pocket twice, but no reason to put that in the description since it makes it sound like the knife has only been carried twice. Seems misleading IMO.


But 4 months is a very long time. To bad the buyer didn't realize how much blade was gone, or have another knife to compare it to. I can see why one wouldn't want to refund after 4 months though, but I think I would myself. I also would not have descibed it as it was described.

This is a tough call. After reading this I know I won't buy/trade for a used knife unless the seller can tell me he is certain on the amount of times it has been sharpened, how it was sharpened, and how much it was used by the first owner. Even if they say its only been in their pocket twice.(if I don't know them that is)

 

[ooitzoo]

"Never really used it. Listed as used due to blemish on Ti from storage and since I have had it in pocket twice".
This makes is sound like a knife that has a blade in great condition.
Very bad description IMO.
It may have only been in the second owners pocket twice, but no reason to put that in the description since it makes it sound like the knife has only been carried twice. Seems misleading IMO.


But 4 months is a very long time. To bad the buyer didn't realize how much blade was gone, or have another knife to compare it to. I can see why one wouldn't want to refund after 4 months though, but I think I would myself. I also would not have descibed it as it was described.

This is a tough call. After reading this I know I won't buy/trade for a used knife unless the seller can tell me he is certain on the amount of times it has been sharpened, how it was sharpened, and how much it was used by the first owner. Even if they say its only been in their pocket twice.(if I don't know them that is)

That's a good rule of thumb regardless.

You're forgetting the torrent of emails that went along with this. I don't remember exactly what I said but it was along the lines of "this is most definitely a user". I am not sure how much clearer I can get -- its not like I said "yea...its new except for those two times...." or something analogous.

That plus pics, greatly reduced price, etc.

 

[Ken44]

That's a good rule of thumb regardless.

You're forgetting the torrent of emails that went along with this. I don't remember exactly what I said but it was along the lines of "this is most definitely a user". I am not sure how much clearer I can get -- its not like I said "yea...its new except for those two times...." or something analogous.

The description of yours that I quoted sounds much differet from the emails you two shared. The "two times in pocket" could have been left out of your initial description IMO.
I have no idea why you put that in the initial desription, but I also have no idea what was said in email. Therefore I can't really suggest a refund. Only you two know what was said, and I hope neither of you wind up upset with the other.
I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to refund after 4 months.
This one is to tough for me, and I wish I would have never posted,lol.

 

[devgru66]

In post #6 of ooitzoo's sales-thread the statement of the condition of the Insigno is quoted: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...derco-Benchmade-SYKCO-amp-a-couple-of-Customs

"Very Lightly Used CRK Small Sebenza Insigno - Purchased this a while back. Never really used it. Listing as used due to blemish on Ti from storage and since I have had it in pocket twice. Otherwise, perfect lock up / F&F / function."

 

[devgru66]

Perfect F&F? Listed as used due to blemish from storage? How about the missing blade steel? This is as shady as it gets.

 

[Reignman]

I don't understand how so many of you can side with the seller on this.
If I buy a $1000 Spyder ski jacket from someone and when I get it, it seems good and comfortable, and I'm happy, but then later discover that it's counterfeit and really only worth $50, do I not deserve a refund? I would be pissed that I just wasted over $900. I was expecting quality, but that's not what I got. Should I be to blame for not having expert knowledge on determining if a Spyder jacket is counterfeit or not? Even if the seller didn't know it was counterfeit, he should still refund the money.

There's also such a thing as inspection period, grace time etc. If it was counterfeit obviously yea.... we're not talking counterfeit. We're talking used, sharpened etc... HUGE difference man, HUGE.

 

[wolfmann601]

Can you imagine the nightmares a four month inspection period will create for sellers of knives?

After a 3 day inspection all deals are final.........................

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Is the OP out of line for asking for a refund? Nope, I would probably do that too. Is the seller out of line for refusing after 4 months? Nope, I would probably do that too.

Sounds like a crap situation where neither party did their full due diligence. Unfortunate that one of you has to eat it, as it doesn't seem like either party had malicious intent.

 

[Smithy]

I can't believe that you guys that deal in expensive knives don't know what you are doing. In this type of market, the seller and the buyer both have the responsibility to know the characteristics of the knives they are dealing with. The buyer SHOULD have know the correct blade shape and returned it immediately. The seller SHOULD have know of the reshaping of the blade. If a person is dealing in expensive knives, he should know what he is doing. The seller should not be penalized because the buyer didn't know what he was doing. And after 4 months...consider it a learning lesson and move on.

And, based on this thread, I wouldn't do any business with either one of you. ...Teddy

 

[kram115]

It seems the consensus is that 4 months is too long and will now close this thread. As a closing note I'd like to say how poorly this went. I asked, not demanded (which you can see from my email that I directly copied here), ooitzoo for a refund. I'd say I'm fully entitled to at least ask and I started this thread to simply see what other members thought. I never wanted ooitzoo's involvement here as I didn't want either the bias from other members that know him or what has turned out to be his accusatory comments. I've learned a valuable lesson from this and will be taking more measures to check the quality of any used knife I buy.

To those of you who may not want to do business with me now as I am apparently "shady," I'd like to point out that through this whole thing I've never made accusations, have been civil (even defending ooitzoo, saying he didn't over sharpen it or was aware of that fact), and have only asked for the opinion of others. I'd also like to point out that at the time of the transaction ooitzoo was very helpful, communicative, and reasonable. I know he probably won't want to sell me anything ever again, but I had no problems with our transaction and I'd still recommend him as a seller. Again, if you don't want my business, that's ok, I don't think I'll want to do much business after this anyways...

P.S. Can someone give me a hand chopping this wood? My hatchet is in the ground.