.45 ACP vs 9mm vs .38 Special

I've only ever had autos, and always had a preference for 9mm. It's just enough to get the job done and the magazine capacity is greater in most guns. Recoil is a little lighter than other calibers, meaning it's easier to control for followup shots. Cost is a factor also. So far in my life I've only ever shot at paper, not people, so power is not a huge concern. It is nice to have the power of a center fire if it's needed.

When it comes to the power of the cartridges in a self defense situation, in my mind I compare the handgun cartridges with types of fighting knives. Which is more deadly, a Bowie or a Stiletto? The Bowie knife might have a wider blade and disrupt a little more tissue, but the stiletto is usually smaller and lighter. Both of these knives make a hole where there shouldn't be a hole, and both are deadly. It's more about where the stab is than how big of a hole is made, anyway. Even a tiny cut to the heart can be deadly.

The same is true for .45 and 9mm. The .45 may be a little bigger and more powerful, but if you hit vitals with a 9mm it'll stop whoever's coming after you. From a medical standpoint, the deeper it goes the more tissue is disrupted and the deadlier it tends to be. Note that a .357 magnum is never questioned as a good man stopper but it's the same diameter as a 9mm bullet, it's just heavier and faster than the 9mm.

That being said, I do like the .45's extra power, it's fun to shoot and I wouldn't turn one away. I don't know for certain that the extra power is worth the slight increase in recoil, loss of ammo capacity, and cost.

There was a website that showed various bullets going through ballistics gelatin. The .45 seemed to shove through and leave a narrow .45 caliber wound channel. The 9mm went in cleanly for a few inches, then seemed to leave some tissue disruption, then continued on deeper into the gelatin. I've educated myself a little, but I'm not a ballistics expert, so anyone please chime in and correct me on this. I'm not sure if that translates to more shock inside of a body or not, but either way, both cartridges went in deep enough to really hurt and/or discourage whatever that gelatin was doing at the time.
 
I also agree about shot placement. I carry a Glock 17 or Glock 19 with federal hydra shok in the magazines. Of course not what I shoot at the range. I may never need 31 rounds but I believe in the old adage "better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it." I understand what heefageLA means about NOLA. About the same here.
 
When it come to ammo, I believe that large/heavy/slow is better than smaller/lighter/faster. That's why I favor a 12 gauge shotgun slug, .45 Colt, a .44-40 or any .44 for that matter over the smaller 9mm or .357 calibre (which is what a .38 special is). When it comes to stopping power, you should be interested in imparting as much residual energy/shock to the interior of your target, rather than have it punch through and expend that energy downrange. Plus a short-barreled .357 snubbie just spits out most of its powder and potential.

All that being said, what really matters is having a reliable gun with which you're comfortable and with which you can accurately put lead where you want it, each time, every time. Even if it's a Chiefs Special with wad cutters. And although it's been said too often, don't forget that a good knife is never unloaded/out of ammo.

By the way, I understand the weight issue after riding around with a four-plus pound Colt's Dragoon with six .457 round lead balls. Now I let the horse/truck carry the 12 gauge or .30-30. And of course a .45 Colt.
 
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JK Knives said:
What's your preference? I'll start off by saying that even though I love the .45 ACP, (my first center fire handgun was a .45 ACP Colt Combat Commander back in 1978), and probably shoot my full size 1911 better than my other firearms, I just can't see carrying over 2 1/2 lbs of steel every day. (I know, buy a lightweight compact, buts it's not in my budget). As for 9mm, I do enjoy shooting my custom Glock 17, and even though it's not small, it's still reasonably light. My little Sig P290 has really surprised me with it's accuracy. Then there is the .38 Special. I have always been a huge revolver fan, and still believe there is a place for a small or medium frame .38 Special.
Let's hear your thoughts.
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What is your pistol shooting experience, and what do you want the gun to do? Target, self defense, plinking, concealed carry, ammo budget, etc.

It depends!
 
Oh the ink that has been spilled and the magazines sold by this argument.

I own and have carried all three, plus the .25acp (sold, it was purchased as a novelty), .32acp, and 380acp. I much prefer the .45acp, mainly due to the platform from which I fire it. A full sized 1911 fits my hand like John Browning used me for a hand model and I shoot it well. That said, I carry a 9mm, again due to the platform: Kahr PM-9. It's much easier to conceal than the Government model, it's surprisingly accutate and easy to shoot, and I'm satisfied by the terminal performance the 124gr HST +P offers.

I think the calibre debate is an amusing mental excersise, but I'm not sure it is fruitful. The advances in bullet technology have closed the gaps in performance between "service" cartridges. If you're not carrying, and that is what this about because at the range shoot what makes you happy, a modern expanding bullet you are leaving a lot of performance on the table. For example, couple of years ago I took up handgun hunting. Since bigger is always better, I settled on a hardcast 360 grain .452 cal bullet moving at 1200fps, considerably more power than any service or carry round. I made a text book broadside shot on a mature whitetail doe and watched her run out of sight . She traveled over a hundred yards before falling and left a minimal blood trail. Upon field dressing I found a perfect 1/2" hole thru the heart and lungs. That big, heavy slug plowed straight through with little disruption. I think an expanding bullet would have served better, though there is no arguing with the end result.

Carry what you shoot best and have sufficient confidence in. And enjoy time at the range with Everything else.
 
GatorFlash1 said:
What is your pistol shooting experience, and what do you want the gun to do? Target, self defense, plinking, concealed carry, ammo budget, etc.

It depends!
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40 years of handgun shooting experience. Concealed carry and self defense.
 
w.t. anderson said:
When it come to ammo, I believe that large/heavy/slow is better than smaller/lighter/faster. That's why I favor a 12 gauge shotgun slug, .45 Colt, a .44-40 or any .44 for that matter over the smaller 9mm or .357 calibre (which is what a .38 special is). When it comes to stopping power, you should be interested in imparting as much residual energy/shock to the interior of your target, rather than have it punch through and expend that energy downrange. Plus a short-barreled .357 snubbie just spits out most of its powder and potential.

All that being said, what really matters is having a reliable gun with which you're comfortable and with which you can accurately put lead where you want it, each time, every time. Even if it's a Chiefs Special with wad cutters. And although it's been said too often, don't forget that a good knife is never unloaded/out of ammo.

By the way, I understand the weight issue after riding around with a four-plus pound Colt's Dragoon with six .457 round lead balls. Now I let the horse/truck carry the 12 gauge or .30-30. And of course a .45 Colt.
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I'm also a fan of big slow bullets. My favorites are .45 ACP and .44 Special out of my 3" S&W.
 
It is really crazy but out of all my Pistols I carry either my S&W Model 60 or a KAHR CW-9 == 99% of the time when I carry for protection as they are lighter to carry and more concealable for me to carry.! Plus I am so used to them I shoot them well enough that I have all the confidence in the world to do the job if I do mine.* ( I shoot in an indoor range 3 or 4 nights or days a week and that makes a big difference ) Good luck if you don't practice with what you carry.!!
 
I like the 9 and carry an M&P. I have shot a few .45 guns over the years and do like it but prefer the 9. My "house" gun for the last 25 years has been a .357 (4" 686) and I still keep that one ready to go.

While I feel the 9 is more than adequate power-wise I like the "enhanced" stopping power of the .357 over the relatively short distances in my home. For carry, I prefer the versatility of the M&P platform with the increased capacity and faster reloads.

The 686 is ultra reliable, being the only gun I have ever owned that has never had a FTF. I had one so far after about 1500 rounds through the M&P and that was a magazine failure.
 
I love my 3" SP101. I have no problem shooting .357 mag with it, and I like carrying it. I shoot 9mm most, it is accurate, and cheap. .45acp and my 1911 are the best, most fun and satisfying to own and shoot.
 
I used to be a big .45ACP guy, but it's expensive, and I find the recoil excessive when under duress. It's not that I can't handle it, but when modern defensive loads from a 9mm have similar stats in terms of fights stopped, I tend to feel it will do the job. Plus, as others have noted, it's lower cost equals more range time for me, and due to lighter recoil, I get more shots on target in the same amount of time. I'd rather get 3-4 rounds on target than 1-2 rounds on target, given the same time frame. More holes equals quicker "hydraulic failure," if you will.

When I carry (most places I go right now don't allow it, ie. work, school, airport), I carry a G19 with a spare mag, loaded with 124gr Federal HST. I'm hoping I can add a G43 to the stable sometime in the near future, but we'll see about that.
 
JK Knives said:
I'm also a fan of big slow bullets. My favorites are .45 ACP and .44 Special out of my 3" S&W.
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One of my all time favorites for a SD wheel gun besides the .38 Special is my Charter arms .44 Special is 3" you have five big slow freight train bullets to STOP an Assailant with or two or even three. I own 1911's, Springfield XD-9, Walther P-99 Ruger .22s etc.

I have a .12 pump for the home and a assortment of other Pistils around:) As has been mentioned, Shot placement wins out over spraying lead everywhere and I'm just as happy with a 5 shot J frame as a my XD-9 and a pile of magazines.

One thing I was taught many years ago is you don't necessarily want to be in a stand your ground pitch gun fight if you don't have too. I was taught to hit what I was shooting and to also use the shots to create an avenue of escape. I can come back with the calvary later.
I now want to get my love ones and myself to safety!:thumb up:

To answer you're question, There is nothing wrong with a .38 special if you feel confident you can hit your target and scoot on out of there !
 
fishiker said:
I would say the 45 with no hesitation, but I'm sure I carry my S&W 642 more than my Kimber, Sig, and Glock combined. Anytime stopping power is discussed I refer back to this: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
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I enjoyed the article link in your post. Like the author stated he was unable to determine the type of bullet used and this lack of evidence may have hurt the military based rounds 9mm, etc. that were ball ammo.

Another deficiency in all these types of ammo discussions is that they only analyze those who have been stopped after being shot. They ignore (1) those who gave up just because of the presence of a firearm that could be used to shot them if they didn't stop, and (2) those who stopped after a round was fired at them but which didn't hit them.

My guess is that these two things outnumber the total of those stopped after being hit by a bullet. I would be curious to hear from those whose job it is to speak COP.
 
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JK Knives said:
40 years of handgun shooting experience. Concealed carry and self defense.
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.45acp shooting Remington Golden Saber ammo would be my choice.

I shoot an H&K USP .45 which is lighter than most 1911's. The compact version is even lighter. I reload .45acp on a Dillon 650 progressive press so the cost of ammo is not too much of a concern when shooting lead semi-wadcutters (they make the nicest holes).


Here is a good video about the H&K USP if you are not familiar with it. Years back the US SOCOM guys chose this gun as their standard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d35tYxq9g9E
 
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I am a complete amature so take what I say with a grain of salt. I only offer it as my opinion and have zero experiance using a gun defensely or offensively. Until a few months ago I had relied on the .22 as my self defense handgun round. I always figured that several well placed rounds would persuade even the most persistent bad guy to look else where for his daily bread.
I try to shoot often and maintain the ability to place several rounds into fairly tights groups. I also handle my pistol often so that it is familiar and drawing and getting into live firing mode is natural and easy.
Earlier this year I traded in my Ruger mark 3 for a sub-compact 9mm. I had not lost faith in the .22 but can't deny that the 9mm is packing more punch and is much easier to carry. Plus around here ammo is much easier to find for the 9mm than the .22.
Everything I have read says not to bother with FMJ rounds for self defense and that I must have hollow points for the round to be affective. However I still have to believe that a couple of well placed 115 grain FMJ rounds from my 9mm will ruin a villains day.
My pistol likes them, I have yet to have a jam, misfire or stovepipe. The recoil is incredible low which really helps me stay on target and send tight double taps down range. Even multiple volleys of double taps is fairly easy with a little practice.
I could be completly wrong of course, most if not all of the experts disagree with me. I am going to trust my gut however and rely on my pistol and ammo choice to go bang every time I need it to. You're mileage may vary.

Jim
 
JK Knives said:
I'm also a fan of big slow bullets. My favorites are .45 ACP and .44 Special out of my 3" S&W.
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I would have to agree with this ... just as hunting dangerous game a heavy slow moving bullet will have much more stopping power.
Im a .45 guy myself and love my 1911's but wouldnt recommend carrying a 1911 to anyone unless youre very comfortable with it for the carry condition. If I dont have a 1911 on my hip its usually my H&K VP9 or for the summer days with lil concealment I carry a Beretta 85FS .380 ... practice ... confidence and muscle memory with whatever you carry is far more important then what it is.
 
I used to carry for work and used large caliber semi-autos. My small pistol then was a 40sw and I still have my 10mm, but sold my 45. This was for action in a remote forested environment. 45 did not have what I needed in the woods at woods ranges, but was a Colt Commanding Officer 3" barrel on Commander frame . 40sw did better as long as 180 grain slugs. 10mm is a hammer of Thor!

Now I carry for protection. Many years ago I bought a West German police P6 [P225] SIG Sauer single stack 9mm. My oldest thinks it is her's. With new ammo like Corbon and Double Tap there is no way you are under gunned. I have killed two deer, a wild boar and a blk bear with it now...long story. Massive holes and tissue damage as well as bone destruction. Full penetration EXCEPT on boar hog which lodged on far shoulder bone and Grissel plate.

38 Special is similar to 9mm but I think there is better 9mm ammo and cheaper for practice. I love revolvers and have a 38 S&W, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 22lr/22mag, 38/44 Bain and Davis.
 
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Grateful said:
I am a complete amature so take what I say with a grain of salt. I only offer it as my opinion and have zero experiance using a gun defensely or offensively. Until a few months ago I had relied on the .22 as my self defense handgun round. I always figured that several well placed rounds would persuade even the most persistent bad guy to look else where for his daily bread.
I try to shoot often and maintain the ability to place several rounds into fairly tights groups. I also handle my pistol often so that it is familiar and drawing and getting into live firing mode is natural and easy.
Earlier this year I traded in my Ruger mark 3 for a sub-compact 9mm. I had not lost faith in the .22 but can't deny that the 9mm is packing more punch and is much easier to carry. Plus around here ammo is much easier to find for the 9mm than the .22.
Everything I have read says not to bother with FMJ rounds for self defense and that I must have hollow points for the round to be affective. However I still have to believe that a couple of well placed 115 grain FMJ rounds from my 9mm will ruin a villains day.
My pistol likes them, I have yet to have a jam, misfire or stovepipe. The recoil is incredible low which really helps me stay on target and send tight double taps down range. Even multiple volleys of double taps is fairly easy with a little practice.
I could be completly wrong of course, most if not all of the experts disagree with me. I am going to trust my gut however and rely on my pistol and ammo choice to go bang every time I need it to. You're mileage may vary.

Jim
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Most of the reason that hollow points are recommended isn't for the stopping power that is just a bonus it if because that round has to go somewhere and if it doesn't stop in the persons body it is going to continue and regardless of the situation you are responsible for every round that leaves your gun.
 
JK Knives said:
I'm also a fan of big slow bullets. My favorites are .45 ACP and .44 Special out of my 3" S&W.
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.45 acp Hornady Critical Duty out of a 3" would be pretty potent, IMO.

Critical Defense and Critical Duty are my go to rounds.
 
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