6lb axe / RIVETING DISCUSSION ON PROUD HAFTS!!

Square_peg said:
Yes I would. And be deliberate about it. Draw out the shape you want then cut to your line. Then file to your profile. Don't take the directly to a thin edge or you will blunt your file. I prefer to cut the heel on a grinder, then profile with a file. But you can dull bit gradually with the file by rolling out to it. Once dulled you can hold your file perpendicular to the bit for shaping.
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Thanks SP I used the grinder method you mentioned to me before on a hatchet of mine and it worked very well so I will keep with it. Just wanting to clear up about using the file: So the bit comes to an acute apex at the cutting edge, once iv'e taken the heel to the grinder it is now flat/vertical/squared off, would you then begin to reshape the cutting edge with the file at roughly a 45 degree angle straight to the corner of that square bit or do you begin with the grinder to remove the right angle edge first then continue with the file? Would this prolong the files life?
 
Kiwi-I would never leave a haft proud on a splitting axe. I rarely leave any haft proud, and if I do, I crown it from the head to the center of the haft-you might call it a dome shape. No haft edges to catch on anything. I have hung a LOT of axes and the only time one has come loose is when the axes went from a high humidity area to a low humidity area. If the head is loose you need to rehang. If it is loose then all you need to do is just drill the wedge (no metal wedges to stop you), and drive the haft, with a drift (can be a piece of a old hickory handle), out the bottom of the eye. If the haft broke, but was tight, cut it off just below the eye, drill out the wedge, and drift what is remaining of the haft in the eye out the top of the eye. Now if the haft is tight and sound, but you just want to change it and save it to reuse somewhere then yes make the haft proud of the eye. I would still dome the proud section. If the haft is flush, and you want to change and save it there are other things you can do- drill out the wedge and it still is likely to drift out the bottom; if not, then shave down the haft just under the eye, drill out the wedge and drive the haft up to leave a small proud section, cut off both sides of the haft, leaving the remaining section of the wedge, and pull it, then drift the haft out the bottom.
All this has been discussed many time on this forum, I just tried to put it all together in one response, hope it makes sense.
 
Yes Axeman very informative and great to have it in one spot; a treat to get advice from someone with as much experience as you. We are lucky to have you on the forums for sure.

When you hang an axe flush do you drive the wedge into the proud haft and then cut it flush or do you cut the haft flush to the head first and then insert the wedge and start driving? I suppose with the latter you are getting more wedge in there instead of cutting a portion of it off? Does it actually matter?
 
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KiwiBloke said:
Yes Axeman very informative and great to have it in one spot; a treat to get advice from someone with as much experience as you. We are lucky to have you on the forums for sure.

When you hang an axe flush do you drive the wedge into the proud haft and then cut it flush or do you cut the haft flush to the head first and then insert the wedge and start driving? I suppose with the latter you are getting more wedge in there instead of cutting a portion of it off? Does it actually matter?
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For what it's worth i cut the tongue a 1/4"- 3/8" proud of the eye after its set down on the shoulder. Then i drive the wedge home and cut off flush. The proud sides flare out and help guide the wedge in a little better. We've had discussions regarding the merits between flush/proud before. On small short eyes like a Hudson bay I'll leave it proud a little. But i find it unnecessary on full size axes. (Plus i think it looks better). But i think those of us that like it flush are in the minority here. I don't use swell lock either. Just cut flush and blo applied many times with a q tip. Hope that helps!
 
Before I seat the head, I'll measure the tongue and wedge, making sure I have the room I want. Then seat the head with
epoxy on the tongue and wedge leaving it about a 1/4" above the head. Then seat the wedge, with some room at the bottom
of the kerf. Then cut the haft leaving 1/8" above the head. Then using a narrow bar I'll sink the wedge below the head and burr the tongue over the wedge. This seems to keep it in place. DM
 
I have to ask those here who feel it important to always leave the haft proud, what possible advantage could you gain, in keeping the haft tight, on a axe that is correctly hung on a head with an eye that is tapered larger at the top? But for an axe that is used heavy, you have the possibility of haft damage with a proud haft. Of course, if you just look at your axes and take them out on weekends and play a little in the woods, it doesn't matter. Now you can hang and use your axe anyway you wish, but I think this proud eye thing is a recent trend with very little history behind it.
Dont get me started on the double wood cross wedge thing, which in my opinion is just the latest trend in hanging an axe, with no merit, and like the proud haft, a lot of draw backs.
 
O Old Axeman , if you use your axe in wet weather a lot, would it be worthwhile to leave the haft proud a little so if the portion of the haft in the eye gets soaked and shrinks you'll still have a lip to keep the head from flying off the handle? Not as a permanent thing but just until you can re-wedge it.
 
Old Axeman said:
I have to ask those here who feel it important to always leave the haft proud, what possible advantage could you gain, in keeping the haft tight, on a axe that is correctly hung on a head with an eye that is tapered larger at the top? But for an axe that is used heavy, you have the possibility of haft damage with a proud haft. Of course, if you just look at your axes and take them out on weekends and play a little in the woods, it doesn't matter. Now you can hang and use your axe anyway you wish, but I think this proud eye thing is a recent trend with very little history behind it.
Dont get me started on the double wood cross wedge thing, which in my opinion is just the latest trend in hanging an axe, with no merit, and like the proud haft, a lot of draw backs.
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I'll agree with you here, to a point. I use my axes as hard as anyone ever did, although on a more intermittent basis. I leave about 3/16" proud and it never seems to suffer damage. I see some with what looks like up to a 1/2", and agree that's just going to get chewed up in use.

To be honest, I find it easier to leave it slightly proud that to fit it flush and not mark up the top of the head with a saw or files.

I have also had less loosening than flush hangs.

Just my take on it
 
A17--unless you are using your axe actually IN water, I dont think it will help. All I ever do is keep the haft lubed with a mix of walnut oil/bees wax. If you chop in rain or snow that will protect your haft. If the haft works loose on you while chopping to the point that it is unsafe, it is unsafe with or without the lip.

Muleman-- I can tell you chop a lot, so I respect your opinion. I agree with the basics of what you said. Like I said, when I say flush it does not mean exactly flush. For splitting I want very little or no protrusion. I will leave 3/16" on felling, bucking, scoring (in the hewing process), but I still would take a old wood chisel or a utility knife and bevel the edge so the protruding haft ends up dome shaped. Some of these pictures I see of tall protruding hafts are just asking for trouble.

Good discussion!
 
I don't use an axe as much as some on here. But i do use an axe nearly every day. And i just can't think of a reason to do anything different than our forebears did in this regard. I've never seen an ad nor an old axe where the haft protruded at all. So i cut mine flush and call it good. The only reason I've ever had a head come loose is due to shrinkage of the eye and it was the bottom of the eye not the top. It seems like everyone on here respects the ways of old so i find it odd that this detail is the exception. You'd think, with our communal heritage to draw from, if leaving it proud was superior we'd know about it. But as has been said it can't really hurt so it's personal preference. I like doing it the way they used to.
 
I think it's an aesthetic thing for the type of axe that's used for pleasure of use rather than straight utility. If they start to get ratty it's easy enough to zip off. And, of course, there aren't that many truly heavy axe users left in North America. Works out to a little embellishment, I figure.

I dome "nice" hangs from front to back and they are certainly more proud than needed. But if something happens and it's damaged beyond repair it just means I get to hang it again, lol. That hasn't happened yet from a proud tongue, but if it does I've got a couple dozen backups.

It would be a much, much different conversation if we were all occupational users rather than enthusiasts! Splitting for heat probably accounts for the vast majority of heavy use for most people who haven't given in to hydraulics. And that constitutes a straight utility axe in my book.
 
I have owned (still do) a lot of historic American axes. Visited a lot of museums (Mercer being my favorite), seen the axes that the Smithsonian and Colonial Williamsburg have that the general public never sees, had a private tour of the Mann factory and their collection in 1987, toured Council factory in 1990 and seen the private axe collections of a lot of collectors over 60 years. I am here to tell you, if the history of the American axe matters to you, there is no historic president for a protruding haft or cross wedging. Could you find a few in history, sure. Was it common, not by a long shot. So I still say it is just the latest trend with very little practical application and even smaller historic president.
 
It certainly is an interesting point that this is a new phenomenon. The swedes seem to be massively into it. GB, Wetterlings and HB/Hultafors all producing proud axes. Swedish axes seem to be in bed with 'bushcraft' right now also. I feel like bushcraft is a huge medium that gets people into axes firstly and then from there they branch out to vintage USA axes (possibly taking their pride with them).
 
I must say, I have little to no weight in this arena and as such respect the hell out of all of you as people who have wisdom and skills that I do not, I am also no super bright fella either, but when I look at a perfectly hung proud axe with a fat wedge that pushes the tongue out sideways and lips over the eye it certainly looks as though it is on tighter. There is more pressure against the eye walls because of this and the wood lip is pinning it down in a way that otherwise would be absent.

This is kind of pointless because axes are meant to be used but if you take aside the potential damage to the top of the haft factor could you contend that a proud axe is not on any tighter then a flush axe? Say if we were to nail the handle into the side of a big tree, tied a chain around the head and pull the other direction with a truck or winch, which one would pop off first? I reckon it'd be the flush axe (although results may be marginal). So using this ridiculous example what is the general consensus? Are proud axes a tighter hang but due to the danger of damaging the top of the haft it is not worth the marginal reward that it offers - or - it simply does not hold on a head any tighter?
 
KiwiBloke said:
I must say, I have little to no weight in this arena and as such respect the hell out of all of you as people who have wisdom and skills that I do not, I am also no super bright fella either, but when I look at a perfectly hung proud axe with a fat wedge that pushes the tongue out sideways and lips over the eye it certainly looks as though it is on tighter. There is more pressure against the eye walls because of this and the wood lip is pinning it down in a way that otherwise would be absent.

This is kind of pointless because axes are meant to be used but if you take aside the potential damage to the top of the haft factor could you contend that a proud axe is not on any tighter then a flush axe? Say if we were to nail the handle into the side of a big tree, tied a chain around the head and pull the other direction with a truck or winch, which one would pop off first? I reckon it'd be the flush axe (although results may be marginal). So using this ridiculous example what is the general consensus? Are proud axes a tighter hang but due to the danger of damaging the top of the haft it is not worth the marginal reward that it offers - or - it simply does not hold on a head any tighter?
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The way i see it is; If you picture the outward pressure of the 1/4"+ protruding tongue, where the outward pressure is most and where the wedge is the fattest, it's pressing into thin air. Yes it's creating a lip but we aren't, for example, ever pulling straight down as if to pull the haft out of the head. I believe that it's more important to capture that outward pressure IN the eye rather than have the benefit of the wood capturing the top. The eye is tapered for this very reason. And I believe the tapered eye achieves the same thing as leaving it proud. I can appreciate not wanting to scratch the top of a nice axe. If I had a really valuable axe I'd probably leave it up to avoid scratching it. All of mine but 3, however, are users. Interesting conversation though! I'm looking forward to hearing others thoughts.

Edit; I had to elaborate. I end up cutting off that top where the outward pressure is greatest. So it's not like you have to choose between having that or not because either way you can't capture that in the eye. So it's a matter of the wood bearing down on top of the eye or not. I still think the taper of the eye achieves this effect sufficiently without leaving it proud. My two cents. More like five... Haha.
 
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I own quite a few GB axes and hatchets from 25 years ago when GB had their big push in the US. I also bought quite a few for the Forest Service to use in Log Cabin restoration. I worked with their US distributor and even GB's owner on some designs to market. Some of the GB's I own have never even been marketed in the US. Not ONE of the GB's I just mentioned has a proud haft. It is a new trend and has no basis in American axe history.

Yes to what Yankee Josh's had to say in his last post.
 
Well what's undoubtedly true is that it's absolutely unnecessary. I'm not sure why it's aesthetically pleasing to the eye (for some), I've never really thought about it before. Maybe it just looks more rustic, or rather the notion of what looks rustic.
 
You are definitely making me think guys. It is pretty weird actually this proud haft business. Just looking at one of my proud axes I can envision and see that all the work has already been done (inside the eye).

I don't blame companies following trends if that is where they think the profit is and what people want; at the same time they also fuel trends so a vicious cycle really.

A pattern that I have never noticed before.. all of my axes and hatchets which iv'e bought that have handles that are roughly 10-15+ years old are flush and anything that has been hung in the last 2-3 years are proud.

Question - if I drive the wedge into a flush (or there abouts) haft will there be more wedge in the eye than if it was proud? or does that not matter either way there will be the exact same they both drive to the same point?
 
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