A bug out bags purpose?

[koyote]

Are we talking about gun battles or BOBs, or both?

I am extremely agnostic on the gun issue. Not really going to go into it.

Instead, I'm going to hijack the thread in another direction. A lot of the comments being directed at the Original Post deal with 2 things. One is trying to make someone feel responsible for the possible deaths of others because he posted a list and his feelings. Not worth discussing.

The other is the importance of mobility. Now here we have meat. What *IS* mobility, and in what context? How big a role does extreme weight savings play?

I've hiked with 40 pound packs and I've hustled ass with more than a few pounds of gear. I'm definitely on the side that says bring socks. All within reason, of course- small and light do have some importance.

But still- what's mobility? where ya goin? I'm a huge fans of bicycles. Even the crappiest wally world $70 special gives you an extra 4 or 6 gallons of water and 10mph on your cruising speed. And it's no huge, nor even irreplacable loss if it has to be left behind (hopefully after you've sucked down at least 2 of those gallons)

Is mobility a sprint through downtown to get to your car? a 25 mile trek to a safe cache? 500 miles to your survival ranch in idaho?

how much of your BOB is disposable? can you chuck half the 30 pounds fast if it proves to be necessary?

 

[forcedestrike]

A bike is a great idea! and with regards to my definition of mobility-

move out of danger (13 miles for me) as fast as possible , and still be alert and ready to make preparations (shelter ect.).

And you are hijacking this thread towards the original topic I don't really understand why people made such a big deal of the no rifle when my goal was to be as light as possible.

 

[David E]

In the UK I can't own a handgun.

I bet you hope that you'll be in France when you'll need to bug-out!

France: MR-73 Revolver because its what I am used to, loaded with S&B SP's[.357] because its also what I am used to and its easy to get in Europe-

So, you own one of these that's kept/stored in France? How many rounds do you have in your possession? (are there limits on private possession of ammo?)

I am confident in my abilities to defend myself with my firearm at close range.

Again, no disrespect, but everyone is "confident" in their (online) gun defense abilities!

- I am good enough to be able to defend myself

And you base that on what, exactly?

With regards to providing a Marksmanship drill test; my apologies but while I do my best to converse in English to an acceptable level I am by no means a native so some terms elude me and as such could you point me in the right direction?

Basically, a shooting drill that's repeatable that can be scored for both accuracy and time. For example, starting hands at sides, not touching handgun and being able to draw and put 6 rounds in the "A" zone of an IPSC target at ten yards (or meters) in 5 seconds or less. (Ideally, the first shot from the holster should be two seconds maximum) This would be better than the 3 yard drill you found via Google.

When I am back in France (Currently in the UK) I will give it a shot

What sort of result should I be aiming for?

2 puns in 10seconds, BOW DOWN TO ME.

Well, I didn't find your post all that.....punny !

.

 

[forcedestrike]

I bet you hope that you'll be in France when you'll need to bug-out!

I hear you mon ami! Being in the rural south would be even better.

So, you own one of these that's kept/stored in France? How many rounds do you have in your possession? (are there limits on private possession of ammo?)

The firearm law is pretty complex and I don't really want to get off topic so I will just link you ok?

http://www.syndicat-armuriers.com/reglementation.html (Francais)

http://www.brittany-internet.com/BrittanyNews/ShootingFirearms/tabid/59/Default.aspx [English]

Yes I own and Yes there are limits but there are legal loopholes- PM me for more information about firearm law because this is not the thread to do it.

Again, no disrespect, but everyone is "confident" in their (online) gun defense abilities!

Indeed.

And you base that on what, exactly?

My comfort level with my gun.

Basically, a shooting drill that's repeatable that can be scored for both accuracy and time. For example, starting hands at sides, not touching handgun and being able to draw and put 6 rounds in the "A" zone of an IPSC target at ten yards (or meters) in 5 seconds or less. (Ideally, the first shot from the holster should be two seconds maximum) This would be better than the 3 yard drill you found via Google.

Interesting, although under controlled conditions results will be better than under stressful ones, but it will be fun so I will try it out.

Well, I didn't find your post all that.....punny !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeozyEvJtyQ&feature=user This will make up for it then
.[/QUOTE]

 

[STAGE 2]

I stick to the bare basics and as stated multiple times:

"I go for speed and lightness instead of comfort- individuals will balance between comfort and lightness as they see fit."

Well then apparently we disagree on what constitutes a necessity and what constitutes comfort. As others have pointed out, being able to walk is easily the most important thing. Hence, socks are prettty high on the list. Same for things like moleskin etc.

Being able to survive a night in the cold without a fire is also pretty important as well. Thus there isn't any reason not to bring a bivy as they take up just as much space as your several trashbags but perform much much better.

Read my post again and put them in context. I choose to stick to a handgun because I want to blend in as I bug out.

Why? What's so great about blending in. If given the choice between messing with someone, who would you choose. They guy that looks like everybody else, or the guy who's carrying the rifle? Seems pretty simple to me.

Furthermore, can you even carry a handgun in europe. I'm fairly certian you can't, unless its to and from the range. That pretty much squashes your concealed protection theory.

To answer your questions' I have camped in the Swiss Alps, northern Turkey (if you don't like dogs don't go there ) All over France, parts of Scotland and South of UK.

Apart from Alaska I have most of America covered based on climate and terrain-

So the shorter and more correct answer would be no. As far as the alps go, have you tried your trashbag and leaf approach there in the winter? What about up in the highlands. Gets pretty nippy up there as well.

You do what you want to do, The beauty of being human is that we have free will. I prefer cutting back and you want comfort and ease. And thats fine.

I completely agree. You're free to do as you like and you won't hear a peep from me while you do it. However "preference" wasn't what you were espousing in the first post. Statements like, "you DON'T need this in your BOB" dont leave any wiggle room nor suggest any preference.

But since we're on the topic and since you seem to like hypothetical questions, here's one for you. Assuming we are leaving some sort of disaster on foot, and assuming I can go just as fast as you and your light bag with all of my unecessary bulky items, isn't it prudent to bring them?

Furthermore, assuming we can travel at the same rate and same distance, what exactly have you accomplished by taking less? Remember this is a real survival situation so "personal enjoyment" isn't on the list.

 

[forcedestrike]

Well then apparently we disagree on what constitutes a necessity and what constitutes comfort. As others have pointed out, being able to walk is easily the most important thing. Hence, socks are prettty high on the list. Same for things like moleskin etc.

But you don't need spare socks to survive.

Being able to survive a night in the cold without a fire is also pretty important as well. Thus there isn't any reason not to bring a bivy as they take up just as much space as your several trashbags but perform much much better.

I do own a bivy bag but I don't need it.

Why? What's so great about blending in. If given the choice between messing with someone, who would you choose. They guy that looks like everybody else, or the guy who's carrying the rifle? Seems pretty simple to me.

I have already answered that question.

Furthermore, can you even carry a handgun in europe. I'm fairly certian you can't, unless its to and from the range. That pretty much squashes your concealed protection theory.

Yes because in a Bug out situation legality is the most important thing.

So the shorter and more correct answer would be no. As far as the alps go, have you tried your trashbag and leaf approach there in the winter? What about up in the highlands. Gets pretty nippy up there as well.

So basically; since you have not bugged out in winter without a sleeping bag you do not know if it will not work? I love your debate style, i can invalidate every question you have made. :thumbup:

I completely agree. You're free to do as you like and you won't hear a peep from me while you do it. However "preference" wasn't what you were espousing in the first post. Statements like, "you DON'T need this in your BOB" dont leave any wiggle room nor suggest any preference.

Survival is about staying alive- talking to you makes me wonder how we have gotten so far as a species.

You don't need spare socks to survive.

But since we're on the topic and since you seem to like hypothetical questions, here's one for you. Assuming we are leaving some sort of disaster on foot, and assuming I can go just as fast as you and your light bag with all of my unecessary bulky items, isn't it prudent to bring them?

...Assuming that we are bugging out together..

...you can carry my bags.

Furthermore, assuming we can travel at the same rate and same distance, what exactly have you accomplished by taking less? Remember this is a real survival situation so "personal enjoyment" isn't on the list.

I have accomplished bugging out rambo style (bold for emphasis on my manly'ness), and chicks dig that. Enjoy your thermos.

 

[forcedestrike]

*snicker*

I will need to get paid membership just to have that as my sig;

I have accomplished bugging out rambo style (bold for emphasis on my manly'ness), and chicks dig that. Enjoy your thermos.

...Even though you disagree with me (and I respect that ) you gotta admit thats a pretty funny retort.

 

[ROCK6]

But you don't need spare socks to survive.

I really disagree here...just to be argumentative Quality socks and footwear would be essential if you needed to move any great distance by foot. I can only speak of over 20 years in the Army and an avid backpacker. If your feet are not conditioned, you will not go very far...period! Your ability to "survive" great diminishes with the loss of your feet (mobility), hands or eyesight. If these are not protected or conditioned properly, you won't be going far without wheeled transportation. I've humped a ruck of some type in the jungles, deserts, woodlands throughout the CONUS and in the snow. Your feet cannot be ignored if you expect to carry any weight for any distance.

Edited to note I was referring to socks. You are correct that you don't need socks to survive if you plan on staying put and awaiting rescue. As soon as your feet get trenchfoot, blistered so bad you can't stand or you get a cut and infection...than you're in a survival situation with zero mobility.

ROCK6

 

[forcedestrike]

Indeed, but for 3 days (bugging out) you don't need to bring spare socks.

Maybe I am unique or have magical boots (K1X Hikers) but spare socks for 3 days for me is just a question of comfort, not survival.

Maybe next time I go for a 3day hike my feet will fall off and then I will be forced to concede defeat.

But I doubt it.

I was looking for a tough rucksack in the sub 50ltr range, what would you suggest based on your experience?

I really disagree here...just to be argumentative Quality socks and footwear would be essential if you needed to move any great distance by foot. I can only speak of over 20 years in the Army and an avid backpacker. If your feet are not conditioned, you will not go very far...period! Your ability to "survive" great diminishes with the loss of your feet (mobility), hands or eyesight. If these are not protected or conditioned properly, you won't be going far without wheeled transportation. I've humped a ruck of some type in the jungles, deserts, woodlands throughout the CONUS and in the snow. Your feet cannot be ignored if you expect to carry any weight for any distance.

Edited to note I was referring to socks. You are correct that you don't need socks to survive if you plan on staying put and awaiting rescue. As soon as your feet get trenchfoot, blistered so bad you can't stand or you get a cut and infection...than you're in a survival situation with zero mobility.

ROCK6

 

[ROCK6]

Indeed, but for 3 days (bugging out) you don't need to bring spare socks.

3-days isn't much, but it really depends on your rate of march...are you planning on walking ~20 miles a day? I do agree that one pair of socks would be okay, but you would have to rinse and dry daily...just make sure they're good wools socks that are of quality make and durable. I can attest that after a few forced 12-mile road marches, my feet were hurting and I desperately needed alcohol to survive the weekend after If you plan to be walking for several days or for great distance per day (such as 15-20 miles/day), than you really need to consider a spare pare of socks. If it’s a rainy, wet or cold/wet (i.e. snow) season, I wouldn’t venture too far without a spare pair of socks. Heck, even a day-hunt, I’ll bring a spare pair of socks in case my feet get wet.

I was looking for a tough rucksack in the sub 50ltr range, what would you suggest based on your experience?

Honestly...Kifaru. They are not light, but for toughness, they can handle more than just a heavy load on a trail...ratchet strapped with several hundred pounds of equipment on top in a C130; tossed out of a helo and truck; stepped on, pulled, dropped, kicked...you name it, Kifaru is one of the few packs that is tough enough to handle abuse, yet still have a frame design where you can carry very heavy loads longer and more comfortably (yeah, comfort may not be your forte, but after several miles, survival = comfort). There are several commerical packs with great suspension, but typically designed for trail-only-use. There are some good surplus rucks that may not be very comfortable, but are pretty darn robust. A good hip belt is a must if you have heavy loads (over 30-40 lbs).

ROCK6

 

[ROCK6]

I know this is such a subjective area as we discuss "survival". "Needs" could be as simple as prescription eyewear to one and as essential as prescription medication to another. As many here discuss their "needs", it's really dependent on the skills, experience, location and season that we may anticipate for our requirements. I would add that several "needs" relate more to having the right tool (and skills to wield) for the job that makes survival more efficient and therefore giving you a higher percentage at surviving. I've used a decent folding saw and axe in the Northwest...fire was more than just a comfort in the mountains and the saw and axe allowed me to gather more firewood faster. Did I need them? No, of course not. Could I have survived with just my SAK? Sure...HOWEVER, survival is about efficiency and if you were to gather wood that was small enough to break (various methods to accomplish the task), you would be expending a lot more energy...energy is essential to survival...efficiency conserves energy, hence efficiency directly correlates to survival. Skill is your most important tool, however, picking the right tools, balanced with your requirements should drive your decisions. Many of us here could survive with very little to nothing for short term, however if you're able to "thrive" than your chances of survival are much higher. Most of us decide on tools, equipment or skills that relate to our immediate area and most likely situations we may find ourselves in based on our experiences. I would say it's a little food for thought, but I'm too tired for dinner and a couple Red Hooks are working quite well (liquid for thought?).

ROCK6

 

[forcedestrike]

3-days isn't much, but it really depends on your rate of march...are you planning on walking ~20 miles a day? I do agree that one pair of socks would be okay, but you would have to rinse and dry daily...just make sure they're good wools socks that are of quality make and durable. I can attest that after a few forced 12-mile road marches, my feet were hurting and I desperately needed alcohol to survive the weekend after If you plan to be walking for several days or for great distance per day (such as 15-20 miles/day), than you really need to consider a spare pare of socks. If it’s a rainy, wet or cold/wet (i.e. snow) season, I wouldn’t venture too far without a spare pair of socks. Heck, even a day-hunt, I’ll bring a spare pair of socks in case my feet get wet.

Can't disagree with any of that- when I hike I tend to just walk until too tired, don't really count my steps.

Honestly...Kifaru. They are not light, but for toughness, they can handle more than just a heavy load on a trail...ratchet strapped with several hundred pounds of equipment on top in a C130; tossed out of a helo and truck; stepped on, pulled, dropped, kicked...you name it, Kifaru is one of the few packs that is tough enough to handle abuse, yet still have a frame design where you can carry very heavy loads longer and more comfortably (yeah, comfort may not be your forte, but after several miles, survival = comfort). There are several commerical packs with great suspension, but typically designed for trail-only-use. There are some good surplus rucks that may not be very comfortable, but are pretty darn robust. A good hip belt is a must if you have heavy loads (over 30-40 lbs).

I have looked at Kifaru in the past but not having handled one I find the price to be simply scary.
Maybe I will have to give them another look.

The german surplus bags look damn good and the price is hard to beat.

I guess I will find out if Kifaru are worth the price for myself. Thanks for that informative answer.

 

[LittleHairyApe]

I have already addressed all your questions in previous posts.

True. I didn't ask you any questions. I didn't and don't have any questions for you.

 

[forcedestrike]

So why bother commenting? There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me but going out of your way to start a conflict without communication is just low.

True. I didn't ask you any questions. I didn't and don't have any questions for you.

 

[LittleHairyApe]

So why bother commenting? There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me but going out of your way to start a conflict without communication is just low.

Actually I was trying to help you.

 

[STAGE 2]

But you don't need spare socks to survive.

You do if you plan on walking somewhere.

I do own a bivy bag but I don't need it.

How would you know what you need? Do you have a magic crystal ball that tells you when and where you are going to need to bug out? Perchance what the weather is going to be and how long you will need to survive?

I have already answered that question.

No you didn't, you merely dodged it. Which person makes for the easier target. The armed one or the (presumably) unarmed one.

Yes because in a Bug out situation legality is the most important thing.

Well now wait a minute. Weren't you just telling me you were trying to avoid attention? Didn't you say that you wanted to keep a low profile? If so they why on earth would you illegally carry a weapon. That makes no sense. Even more so since odds are you don't even have it in your home. Plan on breaking into the local range or whereever you keep it before you leave?

So basically; since you have not bugged out in winter without a sleeping bag you do not know if it will not work? I love your debate style, i can invalidate every question you have made. :thumbup:

Actually I have used my bugout gear in the coldest temps my region gets. Of course, you just dodged my question because both you and I know that you haven't used your trashbags on a cold night in the alps, or anywhere else in dangerous temps. If you have then by all means correct me.

Survival is about staying alive- talking to you makes me wonder how we have gotten so far as a species.

There's a dose of irony for you. I'm advocating for proper modern equipment and you're content to go skipping into the bush with your rock and loin cloth, but somehow I'm the one holding the species back.

You don't need spare socks to survive.

And again you do if you plan to walk.

...Assuming that we are bugging out together..

...you can carry my bags.

Don't be a smartass. Answer the question. If I can move just as fast as you with more equipment why should I leave it behind.

I have accomplished bugging out rambo style (bold for emphasis on my manly'ness), and chicks dig that. Enjoy your thermos.

Rambo wasn't french. 'Nough said.

 

[forcedestrike]

You do if you plan on walking somewhere.

I walk and hike all the time without spare socks...and yet I appear to be alive.

Shocking no?

How would you know what you need? Do you have a magic crystal ball that tells you when and where you are going to need to bug out? Perchance what the weather is going to be and how long you will need to survive?

I know my environment and as such I know that I won't need a bivy bag.

No you didn't, you merely dodged it. Which person makes for the easier target. The armed one or the (presumably) unarmed one.

Depends against who, authority tends to have issues with civilians running around with rifles in a crisis.

even in the land of the free mon ami.

Well now wait a minute. Weren't you just telling me you were trying to avoid attention? Didn't you say that you wanted to keep a low profile? If so they why on earth would you illegally carry a weapon. That makes no sense. Even more so since odds are you don't even have it in your home. Plan on breaking into the local range or whereever you keep it before you leave?

Hence "concealment"

Oh and "where I keep it" would be next to my bed.

I posted links to French firearm laws, I suggest you read them.

Actually I have used my bugout gear in the coldest temps my region gets. Of course, you just dodged my question because both you and I know that you haven't used your trashbags on a cold night in the alps, or anywhere else in dangerous temps. If you have then by all means correct me.

Nope, but then again I don't bug out in dangerous temps. That being said I am confident that I could survive without a sleeping bag.

There's a dose of irony for you. I'm advocating for proper modern equipment and you're content to go skipping into the bush with your rock and loin cloth, but somehow I'm the one holding the species back.

I am advocating for freedom of choice.

And again you do if you plan to walk.

No... I don't.

Don't be a smartass. Answer the question. If I can move just as fast as you with more equipment why should I leave it behind.

To be as awesome as me?

No one likes a sweaty guy.

Rambo wasn't french. 'Nough said.

"The fictional character of John J. Rambo was born on July 6, 1947 in Bowie, Arizona to a Native American Navajo father (R. Rambo according to the last film) and a mother of German descent. "

Not Anglo either aye?

I feel I have to warn you in case you play the Jay Leno card (French people suck because they are French) that I don't really care much for other people's race or nationality. I judge based on individual action and as such French bashing and general stereotypes don't really bother me.

 

[STAGE 2]

I walk and hike all the time without spare socks...and yet I appear to be alive.

Shocking no?

So its completely impossible for your socks/shoes to get wet. Its impossible that you'd need to be out for days. Socks are incredibly heavy and take up all sorts of room.

I know my environment and as such I know that I won't need a bivy bag.

So you never travel? Never go anywhere outside your usual environment? You always know what the weather is going to be like?

And then there's the issue of space and weight. I can guarantee you that my bivy bag is light enough to where you'd need a scale to measure the difference and packs just as small if not more so than several trash bags. Whats more, its performs markedly better and stands up to abuse far better.

You see, hypothermia isn't something reserved for arctic oceans or snow covered mountains. At the right time of year, a single night in the desert without enough warmth can give you hypothermia. So anyone who would give encourage others to rely on only the bare minimum to get buy either is trying to bring harm to others or has no experience in the bush.

Depends against who, authority tends to have issues with civilians running around with rifles in a crisis.

even in the land of the free mon ami.

Really, cause thats news to me. I've seen all sorts of people walking around with firearms that don't get hassled by the police. Probably because its perfectly legal over here. Its nice to have a bill of rights.

Of course this still dodges the question since I was speaking of criminals.

Hence "concealment"

Which is illegal for you. No sense in breaking the law if you're trying to keep a low profile.

Nope, but then again I don't bug out in dangerous temps. That being said I am confident that I could survive without a sleeping bag.

Finally a straight answer. But lets take it one step further. Have you actually spen a night under the stars anywhere with your trashbags and leaves?

As far as bugging out in dangerous temps, again its really fortuitious that you know when and where you will have to do it and what the weather will be. Unfortunately, I myself am not clairvoyant, so I have to be more prepared.

I am advocating for freedom of choice.

Starting sentences with the words 'don't need', never, and 'shouldn't' don't sound very much like choice to me.

...and Rambo still wasn't french.

 

[Fallbrook Forge]

what I want to know, why are you stuck on three days? the only experience I have with needing to leave my home in an emergency are fire and earthquake, both fires, 03 and the ones just recently, required me to leave for well over 3 days. just wondering why you picked 3 days, seems kinda odd, I've set my and my wifes bags up to support us for an indefinate time period, meaning we have extra clothing, shelter, and a means to gather/kill prep and cook food, filter water, and there is a HUGE med kit, I'm not sure why you would want to leave out a medical kit, seems to me that is the most important part, I mean what happens you take a spill, next thing you know you have a massive infection in your body because you couldn't propperly clean and dress the wound? or you break a bone, get into a self defense situation and take a bullet, or get stabbed or cut? in my opinion, FAK is HIGH on the priority list, only thin higher is a means to defend myself, and a knife. After thos things it seems to me that a kit would or could just depend on the area you are in.

 

[forcedestrike]

So its completely impossible for your socks/shoes to get wet. Its impossible that you'd need to be out for days. Socks are incredibly heavy and take up all sorts of room.

I guess drying at night/ near a fire is just so difficult, how have we survived without spare socks in a waterproof bag for so long?

So you never travel? Never go anywhere outside your usual environment? You always know what the weather is going to be like?

I do but the most extreme in terms of climate is the alps, aside from that most of europe does not have extreme temperatures.

With regards to the climate to expect I believe its called the weather forecast and common sense.

I know that in July northern Turkey is scary hot. Hence I won't bring arctic equipment, I know that nights can be chilly however they won't be freezing.

And then there's the issue of space and weight. I can guarantee you that my bivy bag is light enough to where you'd need a scale to measure the difference and packs just as small if not more so than several trash bags. Whats more, its performs markedly better and stands up to abuse far better.

I never said it did not.

You see, hypothermia isn't something reserved for arctic oceans or snow covered mountains. At the right time of year, a single night in the desert without enough warmth can give you hypothermia. So anyone who would give encourage others to rely on only the bare minimum to get buy either is trying to bring harm to others or has no experience in the bush.

and I will totally go to the north pole with my BoB, way to take things out of context genius.

My BoB is designed to allow me to survive for 3days, not to go on expeditions or survive for longer than 3 days, I have a tent and sleeping bags ect. but they are in my more longterm bags which I don't define as BoB's.

Really, cause thats news to me. I've seen all sorts of people walking around with firearms that don't get hassled by the police. Probably because its perfectly legal over here. Its nice to have a bill of rights.

France also has a constitution cherie

And we are talking about situations where a BoB is required, The great state of Louisiana has open carry as a state law (I believe) that being said weapons were still confiscated.

Is California not part of the United States of America? Have you walked down the street with a rifle?

But of course your bill of rights and 2nd amendment reigns true in America.

Your rights have never being infringed.

Of course this still dodges the question since I was speaking of criminals.

Which is illegal for you. No sense in breaking the law if you're trying to keep a low profile.

What part of concealment do you not understand? in a situation where I require my BoB I will not worry about parking tickets or if I can carry a firearm.

Finally a straight answer. But lets take it one step further. Have you actually spen a night under the stars anywhere with your trashbags and leaves?

I have already answered that before in the thread; yes, Although if the weather is nice then just my parka will do.

Have you ever walked anywhere without spare socks?

As far as bugging out in dangerous temps, again its really fortuitious that you know when and where you will have to do it and what the weather will be. Unfortunately, I myself am not clairvoyant, so I have to be more prepared.

Mainland France is the size of one of your states, apart from specific regions the climate tends to vary by only 8 degrees tops.

I know what to expect. The cold is the last thing I worry about- in the south Heat waves take lives, the cold frankly doesn't bother me.

Starting sentences with the words 'don't need', never, and 'shouldn't' don't sound very much like choice to me.

Please stop paraphrasing me, it used to be cute now its just annoying.

In the context of survival as in staying alive you don't need many things.

More tools and equipment just make things easier & more comfortable.

And yet I have repeatedly stated that people can do what they want, I don't recall giving other people an ultimatum.

The OP was about lightweight BoB's, if you want to talk about your fully loaded BoB then start your own thread with reasons why you should have X.

...and Rambo still wasn't french.

Does this have a point? am I supposed to be bothered by the nationality of a fictional character?
Clearly you can't take a joke.