A combined Knifemakers Guild/American Bladesmiths Show

[Dawkind]

One thing that, IMHO, hurts a number of makers at shows the last couple of years are the advent of the 'Lotteries'......it seems folks stand around for days waiting for their 'number' to be called and keep their money in their pockets.

I would like to see ALL of the 'Lotteries' happen first thing in the morning on which ever day is agreed upon and get them out of the way so folks know if they can spend their money or not........it's great for the high demand makers but absolutely kills most of the others.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Dawkind

QUOTE]One thing that, IMHO, hurts a number of makers at shows the last couple of years are the advent of the 'Lotteries'......it seems folks stand around for days waiting for their 'number' to be called and keep their money in their pockets.[/QUOTE]

These can "suck money out of the room". The Chicago show was excellent example of this. Not just the Lotteries in the show, but the Tactical Invitational and Auction. The first year they tried that it paralyzed the show.

To Ed's credit he has been listening to those attending the show and has been fine tuning the sequence of events. Moving the Invitational to January 2010 in Vegas.

So eliminating this from the 2010 Chicago show should help sales at the show.

Like it or not the lottery system is here to stay. Many feel this it the only fair way to offer the knives.

As John pointed out he hated the fact the maker he wanted to buy from was sold out before the show opened.

Makers listening to what the customers wanted was what caused the lottery.

Having them the first thing when the show opens would require some logistical planning. As there would probably have to be some separation in time. As many people would want to attend more than one...possibly all of them.

But your idea of getting them over early would benefit the remainder of the show.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,

Absolutely right. I was speaking about the dealers who would actually set up at the show and offer even more knives for the collectors to look at.

Almost without exception the dealers you were speaking of do not set up at shows.

Personally, I don't see that much of a benefit for me as a collector in regard to an INTERNET dealer setting-up at shows. If a dealer has something I want, I can easily enough buy it off his site. I do believe dealer set-up it good for the dealer and good for the show in general. I do enjoy visiting dealers at shows and looking over their knives. I'm sure some collectors may have different opinions on dealers setting up at shows.

One of those "West Coast" dealers does primarily Consignment. He picks up the "left overs" at the show and takes them home and puts them on his site.
Don't know which dealer are are referring to, but both I'm speaking of have beat me to the punch in purchasing knives in Reno. So in these cases they weren't picking left overs.

The Maker doesn't get paid until he sells the knife. Now, this dealer doesn't hold a gun to anyone heads.

But just wanted to clarify that this individual does not buy "Thousands and Thousands of dollars worth of custom knives."

As you pointed out with the loss of two west coast dealers and two dealers missing from the South East...while it may have had no affect on the sales. I think you would agree that long term it can't be good for sales.

Re-read my previous post, I said it did have a negative impact on show dealer sales.

You know when you see makers like Jerry Fisk (Arguably the best known ABS MS in the World) and Kyle Royer (Yes Im sure he is on the waiting list, but given the press he has gotten, perhaps they could have squeezed one more table into the room) attending the Arkansas Show and not the ABS Show. Perhaps the ABS should consider a larger room.

We both know why Jerry isn't there and it doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread or Bruce's question as to whether dealers should be allowed to participate in a Guild/ABS show. In regard to Kyle, I expect he is on a waiting list and I expect the ABS fairly honors it's waiting list no matter who wants a table. You nor I, have a say in what the ABS considers the right numbers of tables for their show. Personally, outside of the Blade Show, I prefer a smaller format show.

Kevin, while the sales may not have been 'Bad" they were not equal to the first few years of the show. So yes, the sales overall have slowed down over the past few years. It is not me saying the show had slow sales...it was the makers I talked to who told me that was they case.

To my knowledge, sales have slowed the last two years. And I believe partly for the reasons I stated. The last Reno show (first year for the new format) knife sales were not allowed on Friday. That was a mistake in my opinion as Friday was busy (busier than Saturday imo) with folks wanting to buy knives. Obviously others agreed as this year makers were allowed to sell one knife on Friday

If the new location was going to have a negative affect on the show...they should not have went there.I believe anytime you re-locate a show you can expect a set-back to some degree. Doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a good move for the future. Commercial real estate developers/professionals will tell that even moving a business a block away is like starting a new business in many ways and you WILL lose some existing customers.

Bad Lighting??? Why wasn't that addressed before the show started? Did anyone look a the room before they signed the contract?
Being in commercial construction and real estate, I realize how complex lighting can be. It's not like that room was dark it just didn't have the right lighting in the right places for displaying knives. Remember that room is 100 years old and probably hasn't had a lighting upgrade in some time. Generally, convention centers and show venues have lighting engineered for display. Many hotel meeting/dinning facilities (especially the older ones) do not. It was very easy for someone who was not experienced in commercial lighting from the ABS to have missed that when the room was empty. Just one of the reasons why it's so important when choosing show venues. And sometimes paying a little for professional guidance/advice can save a lot latter. .


Horrible Economy? Actually I have had very good sales this year...off the Internet. I suspect that the Internet had more of a negative affect on the show than the economy did.
I doubt that anyone's surprised to hear you say that.


The new 'format". Yea the "drawing" on Friday will probably be gone for next year. Table holders get a little annoyed when they can't sell the knife to someone who wants to buy it.
I agree. Though allowing one sale of Friday is better than none, in my opinion the show should be open for sales after the seminars on Friday from 3:00-5:00 or 6:00.

Given the waiting list and the size of the ABS membership, why wasn't a larger room considered? Seems there would be a larger room somewhere in San Antonio. I suspect any major hotel would like to rent even a larger room and get even more rooms booked.

As you say given the bad economy, which includes the travel/hotel industries. There might have been a better deal there. Unless there was some other reason you wouldn't want to open up the show to the other members?

Don't know Les, perhaps both the Guild and the ABS should hire you. Are are always the guy with ALL the answers.

Had the show had 150 makers there, I would have attended.

I don't know the answer for the limited number of tables. That is why I am asking as you seem to be in the "loop" on this.

Don't know how much in the loop I am, but as I said, I have been to all but one Expo and I'm not a total idiot.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

That is true of the majority of the shows in the country now. Especially those collectors who know what they are looking for.

Hint, call the maker you want to see 3 months before the show. Make arrangements to buy the knife as soon as the doors open...or before (like the night before as so many knives are sold at every show).

The kicker is...you have to step up and pay the money..

what really sucked was seeing almost of all that makers knives on a dealers table as soon as the show opened. :thumbdn:

I like the idea of having the lotteries early in the morning , and face it , if you aren't there for show opening you wouldn't have a shot if the knives were sold without lottery.

Be nice if the promoters told the makers " you must have x amount of knives on the table when the show doors open " . while I understand past customers get previews and deals the night before or the morning of the show , being sold out before the doors open is good for the maker only , and does not induce a good atmosphere for those that traveled and took time to attend the show.

 

[DWinkler]

I think the two organizations should drop both their shows and work together to produce one. They are at about the same time anyway.

The way I see it is the more makers at a show to draw in their customers benefit everyone. If another maker’s customers are not at a show I attend I miss the opportunity to have him/her even see what I do. I wish the Guild collectors had been at the ABS Show this year. And I bet the Guild members that attended their show wish the ABS collectors had been in Kentucky.

I think there are very few collectors and knife users that really never cross over.

In regard to location, if you produce the show right the collectors and makers will travel. What maker reading this would not go to Solvang next year if invited? Or the Art Knife Invitational.

Les,

I had better sales at the ABS Shows in Reno than I did in Texas. But I tried to have stuff available to the Safari Club members that came to the knife show. I know that a lot of the makers at the ABS Shows in Reno thought they didn't have sales going to SCI members but I know that a lot did and didn't even know it.

I like having Dealers at shows, it gives me someone to aggravate. Really Dealers are very important to Knifemakers and leaving them out in any regard is a mistake. If there is a problem with them buying up stuff early then the customers need to talk to the makers and ask them not to sell early. I don't know about anyone else but I listen to my customers.

Daniel

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

Bad Lighting??? Why wasn't that addressed before the show started? Did anyone look a the room before they signed the contract?
Being in commercial construction and real estate, I realize how complex lighting can be. It's not like that room was dark it just didn't have the right lighting in the right places for displaying knives. Remember that room is 100 years old and probably hasn't had a lighting upgrade in some time. Generally, convention centers and show venues have lighting engineered for display. Many hotel meeting/dinning facilities (especially the older ones) do not. It was very easy for someone who was not experienced in commercial lighting from the ABS to have missed that when the room was empty. Just one of the reasons why it's so important when choosing show venues. And sometimes paying a little for professional guidance/advice can save a lot latter. .

Exactly right Kevin. So why didn't the ABS ask you or someone else for a "professional" opinion.

As you know, Poor lighting can really have a negative affect on a show.

Horrible Economy? Actually I have had very good sales this year...off the Internet. I suspect that the Internet had more of a negative affect on the show than the economy did.
I doubt that anyone's surprised to hear you say that.

Kevin, that is why the magazines interview me... and not you. With regards of who to watch and what the market is doing.

Don't know Les, perhaps both the Guild and the ABS should hire you. Are are always the guy with ALL the answers.

The ABS prefers to go with inexperienced "volunteers" when it comes to their organization. Take the Web Site that had a lot of money thrown at it after the Blade Show in 2006. It appears it has now been turned over to someone who knows what they are doing....They at least got the Expo page on the website...still no JS Makers though....maybe 2010 (4 years after I brought it to their attention). Im sure you remember as you were part of the group defending the ABS on this.

The Guild does hire professionals...Take Bruce Voyles for instance. They just don't implement the suggestions non-knifemakers make. To be fair, it has to be the right knife maker making the suggestion.

Example, back in the late 80's a man name David Cohen, offered his professional marketing service to exit poll those who attended the show. As you can imagine this could have been very useful information for the Guild to have.

Im sure I don't have to tell you what the Guild's answer was.

I'm not a total idiot.

Kevin, don't sell yourself short!

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,
Exactly right Kevin. So why didn't the ABS ask you or someone else for a "professional" opinion.

As you know, Poor lighting can really have a negative affect on a show.

Perhaps in hind-site they may see they should have, but it's one of the many things that are easily missed in preparing for a show. And it's not just the ABS. There was conversation on one of the other threads regarding the Guild missing an advertising opertunity.

Kevin, that is why the magazines interview me... and not you. With regards of who to watch and what the market is doing.

You must not read the magazines that interview you. Shame on you.
I have been in Blade four times that I can remember just this year and replied to another request last Thursday. And yes, most asking for my opinions and such.

The ABS prefers to go with inexperienced "volunteers" when it comes to their organization. Take the Web Site that had a lot of money thrown at it after the Blade Show in 2006. It appears it has now been turned over to someone who knows what they are doing....They at least got the Expo page on the website...still no JS Makers though....maybe 2010 (4 years after I brought it to their attention). Im sure you remember as you were part of the group defending the ABS on this.

The Guild does hire professionals...Take Bruce Voyles for instance. They just don't implement the suggestions non-knifemakers make. To be fair, it has to be the right knife maker making the suggestion.

Example, back in the late 80's a man name David Cohen, offered his professional marketing service to exit poll those who attended the show. As you can imagine this could have been very useful information for the Guild to have.

Im sure I don't have to tell you what the Guild's answer was.

Les, don't think Bruce started this thread to be your platform to bash the ABS.

Kevin, don't sell yourself short!

Good one.

 

[Nebulae]

so I'm pretty new to making knives and total new to shows, but what seems to be the problem from outside, is that there are to many shows. first of all the ABS and the guild need to recocnize that while custom/handmade knife sales are trending upward as people realize they are superior to factory made knives (correct me if I'm wrong but 10,20 years ago people were into new factory knives) the knife shows are failing. obviously the guild and ABS need to work together, but the real problem is that there are half a dozen shows a year big supply little demand. perhaps if the ABS and Guild had their Big show every other year it would be better. both the ABS, and Guild need to think long term about whats really sustainable and best for the industry.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

You must not read the magazines that interview you. Shame on you.
I have been in Blade four times that I can remember just this year and replied to another request last Thursday. And yes, most asking for my opinions and such.

Very impressive Kevin.

To be fair though, one of the articles was on the CKCA, another is the article that you mentioned that hasn't come out yet. What were the other 2?d

You'll find this interesting. I will be in Blade 4 Times in the next 3 issues. To be fair, 3 of those will be articles I have actually written and one is the same article you will be in. I wonder who will be quoted more?

Les, don't think Bruce started this thread to be your platform to bash the ABS.

Kevin, Bruce started this thread to discuss "IF" the two organizations could combine. I took some pretty good shots at the Guild...so fair is fair.

I think you will agree the inability to get a website redesigned 3 1/2 years after the money was allocated is inexcusable.

I don't consider that bashing...I consider that incompetence.

How long would you have someone working for you that didn't get a project (a project that should probably take no more than 6 months) done in 3 1/2 years?

You don't have to answer that question. It was rhetorical.

 

[jdm61]

Les, I though the number of ABS knifemaker members was north of 1000. At last count there were over 100 Master Smiths and you would have to guess that there may be twice as many Journey Smiths. ( I can't find my ABS directory which is a couple of years old)
As for suppliers, that is probably the second most important reason ma lot of makers have for attending shows. I think that if you said "custom only" and included all things and persons related to custom knifes, including supplies, dealers and collectors, that would be nice.
As for the suggestion of having it in Dallas, I would be all over that. DFW has the advantages at Atlanta in that it is very easy to get to by air and is has plenty of suitable venues and hotels and there is plenty to do there. And unlike some places that have shows now like New York, Chicago or Paris, you won't go broke staying there.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Being both a Guild Honorary and ABS member, I would love to see something become of this.
It just makes great sense on so many levels.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Les, I though the number of ABS knifemaker members was north of 1000. At last count there were over 100 Master Smiths and you would have to guess that there may be twice as many Journey Smiths.

Joe, last I heard the ABS was around 1200, but I could be wrong.

 

[HTMD]

I suspect that the reasoning behind it was to keep the show "pure".

Careful Les... You don't know that. Very few decisions of any kind are made for a single reason.

Bruce - Thinking outside the sheath! I love it. Regardless of whether it could happen or not, you've provided a lot of food for thought by asking the question.

Kevin - Hmmm... yes, this gives me an idea.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joe,

You are right, Im not sure what the number of member is. Im sure it is close to 1000 by now.

Most custom knife shows include makers, suppliers and dealers. Some even have displays (I personally like that).

Hi Buddy,

That is my opinion. Based on the Interaction during the ABS board meeting I attended.

If there is another reason for not allowing dealers to set up. I would be curious to hear it.

At this point it doesn't matter.

Personally I would like to see the show increase to 100 tables +, especially given the amount of MS and JS makers currently active in the ABS. And as Joe pointed out, the numbers are not going to decrease anytime soon.

Although with the move of the ABS Show from Reno, the Arkansas Show has really picked up a lot more makers. This show is rapidly becoming a Must attend show for forge blade collectors.

I stopped setting up at the show so I could spend more time talking to all the makers there.

Any way, there a re a lot of logistics to work out before something like this could even be considered becoming a reality.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,

Very impressive Kevin.

To be fair though, one of the articles was on the CKCA, another is the article that you mentioned that hasn't come out yet. What were the other 2?d

You'll find this interesting. I will be in Blade 4 Times in the next 3 issues. To be fair, 3 of those will be articles I have actually written and one is the same article you will be in. I wonder who will be quoted more?

Les, I'm certainly not interested in playing "whose is the biggest" with you.
Hell, I haven't been involved in custom knives 1/3 the time you have. And don't claim to know 1/3 about the subject that you do. However, I put a lot of time into it and care a lot about the knives and the community. So if I think you are wrong on an opinion or un-fairly bashing an organization when you can and do influence folks on this forum, I will challenge you on it every time.
In regard to any interviews, articles, contributing to articles and so on, I'm just humbled and appreciative that anyone cares what I think. If in fact they do.

If you are so interested in my contributions to Blade Magazine then find them yourself. I have probably 1/2 dozen mentions and or contributions in four different past issues this year. I never mention or boast about this and wouldn't mention it now if not for your childish and self-serving statement.

Kevin, that is why the magazines interview me... and not you. With regards of who to watch and what the market is doing.

I for one would like to see this get back to productive discussion that this topic deserves.

 

[sheathmaker]

.

I for one would like to see this get back to productive discussion that this topic deserves.

That would be such a good idea. I would like to see it too.

Paul

 

[jdm61]

Some interesting points have been brought up. One that struck me in particular was the fact that the Arkansas show seems to be doing quite well IN SPITE of it being in a city that is nowhere as easy to get to as some others in the same part of he country.
One problem with putting together a show like this may not just be getting everyone from both organizations to sign on. I went to SICAC in 2007. It was a fun show in a cool neighborhood, but rather pricey. I was talking to one of my fellow Americans who had a table and he said that the show used to be bigger, but the promoter had some significant cheapness issues that kind of derailed the show a few years back. I asked some of my European knifemaker friends if anyone had thought about trying to put together a big show in a readily accessible location like Frankfurt or Amsterdam. The response that I got was that such a thing would be too difficult. They tend to go with the smaller local/regional shows.
That may a problem over here too. People think that there are already too many shows, the internet dilutes them, you could never put together a big one from scratch, etc, etc. My questions about a European show would be based on the same assumptions that you would have to make over here. The big one would be that while there are a lot of shows, if you put together a REALLY good one, you would likely eventually drive some other ones out of the market. In the case of a joint show like we are talking about here, you would essentially take two "boutique" shows and turn them into one big one.
If you put on a good show, then people will come. The Belgian show at Gembloux is a good example. it is a local/regional show with few if any pretenses of being anything bigger. It takes place in a small city outside of Brussels with very limited lodging opportunities and pretty much zero nightlife. Yet, even with the down economy, this years show has 125 tables which is about 15 more than last year. Same thing with Arkansas. I don't know if the state organization intended for it to become one of the top forged blade shows, but it did. I would think that a well planned, well run combined show held say in early Septmeber in a big town you can get to AND afford could be successful.

 

[jdm61]

Les,

You must always keep in mind in some people's opinions the Blade show is tainted and polluted with things like manufacturers and vintage knives. In fact I have heard the antique knife section referred to as the "rusty blade section" by knifemakers.

I'm talking about a pure show here--like Gawd intended.

I'm not sure if such a show would allow dealers or suppliers though. Your thoughts?

Bruce Voyles

Bruce,
Aside from the bugaboos associated with the new show management, some of the complaints that I heard about Blade this year were directed at some of the vendors. Of course, most of us know about the table full of purses and some other stuff that were occupying premium spots in the ABS section while ABS members were stuck over in the generic handmade section. We also had some "got their table at the last minute" knifemakers who were not ABS members in the section. Some other complaints revolved around some of the factory and tactical knife tables. One of the factories actually had AR 15's in their booth. The problem is that, as far as the custom makers are concerned, a lot of the stuff at Blade may dilute the show, but most(not all) of the vendor's wares do belong at the show because it is much more broad based than your typical custom show. Blade is a different beast. it is kind of the "Woodstock" of the knife world. You really need to go even if you aren't displaying or if you lose money. I have heard some of my European friends talk about the Thiers show the same way. Some don't seem to sell as much there as they do at say Solingen, SICAC, etc, but for some reason, it is apparently the one show that knifemakers, particularly the French speakers, feel that they must go to and show their face. Baring a total logistical/customer service meltdown, Blade will always have a lot of people who want a table. What we are talking about here is a show that would have enough people and high quality product to draw buyers and a number of tableholders and a mix of vendors that would allow everyone the opportunity to make money. But that's always the trick, isn't it?

 

[TennKnifeman]

Dallas would be a great location for a show...surprised someone hasn't thought of that before. Oops....they have.

Does this mean that everyone who thinks Dallas would be a great location for an ABS/Guild show will be attending the 2010 Spirit of Steel Show in the Dallas
Metroplex?

Why not Nashville, a major airline hub, centrally located to the majority of the driving population.

If the earth should shatter open and the Guild and ABS drop their respective shows and do one together the city I would recommended would be Atlanta, Georgia. The location? Cobb Galleria. Seems to be ideal for some other shows doesn't it? Six months away from Blade. And I would invite dealers, and suppliers, and even a small percentage of the suppliers tables could be things like ray-skin wallets. And everyone already knows where to stay and how to get there.

As for landing on someone else's show dates? Doesn't seem to bother any other show promoter when they pick show dates. Look back on your calendars and see how many shows were in September when the Spirit of Steel Show started--versus now. Wanna do a show, pick your date and have at it. No need to respect anyone's show dates. The precedent has already been set on that score.

Where are the proponents of the ABS and Guild that I see posting so often in other threads?

There are two major reasons such a show will never happen.
1. To much turf to battle over.
2. It would make sense.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Dallas would be a great location for a show...surprised someone hasn't thought of that before. Oops....they have.

Does this mean that everyone who thinks Dallas would be a great location for an ABS/Guild show will be attending the 2010 Spirit of Steel Show in the Dallas Metroplex?

Why not Nashville, a major airline hub, centrally located to the majority of the driving population.

If the earth should shatter open and the Guild and ABS drop their respective shows and do one together the city I would recommended would be Atlanta, Georgia. The location? Cobb Galleria. Seems to be ideal for some other shows doesn't it? Six months away from Blade.

I originally considered Atlanta over Dallas, however I believe a Dallas location would result in more West Coast/Pacific Northwest attendance. Even though we know that it's very little if any additional expense and not much additional time in traveling from the west coast to Alanta as opposed to Dallas, there's still this "traveling from coast to coast to a show" stigma that many can't get over. Having another show at the Cobb Center would surely reduce your margin for error as they have definitely figured out the knife show to a great extent.

And I would invite dealers, and suppliers, and even a small percentage of the suppliers tables could be things like ray-skin wallets. And everyone already knows where to stay and how to get there.

Perhaps wallets, but I would leave the handbags/shoes out. Seems like the bazaar selection of non knife related items offered at Blade last year really struck a nerve with many makers. Dealers and suppliers are important to include in my opinion as well.

As for landing on someone else's show dates? Doesn't seem to bother any other show promoter when they pick show dates. Look back on your calendars and see how many shows were in September when the Spirit of Steel Show started--versus now. Wanna do a show, pick your date and have at it. No need to respect anyone's show dates. The precedent has already been set on that score.
I agree here as well. You have to pick the date that makes the most sense and go with it and let the cards fall as they may. Farthest away from the Blade Show as possible would be my suggestion as well.

Where are the proponents of the ABS and Guild that I see posting so often in other threads?

There are two major reasons such a show will never happen.
1. To much turf to battle over.
2. It would make sense.

I agree again.