A combined Knifemakers Guild/American Bladesmiths Show

The argument about the ray skin wallets always touches a nerve with me as I carry one bought at the New York Custom show some years ago. If you check around, a fairly large percentage of people in the knife industry are doing the same. It always seems custom makers want to limit attendees at shows strictly to what they personally want to sell them. I think it is better to allow a reasonable variety of products that increase the general public's interest in attending the show in the first place. If Atlanta ever starts restricting their show to customs and forces out the production knife companies and the antique dealers, they will have lost one attendee, me.

Maybe customs show should start making every attendee show their cash roll at the door. Keep the lookie-loo's out all together. But I guess that is what the Tactical Invitational is already doing, isn't it?
 
A combined show is The Best idea I've heard in a long time. This thread is sorta like an on line "town hall" meeting.

Bruce's last post just about summarizes my thoughts on the bottom line:

1) Determine the best date, taking into consideration other large, successful shows.
2) Find the best venue (Atlanta Cobb Galleria)
3) Do it. (I don't want to get into too many details here, but listen to some the best minds in the business like Bruce, Les, etc.)

Someone should send a link of the recent discussions on this topic to all board members of both organizations. Some won't like it I'm sure, but if the memberships get behind it in force, they should be compelled to make a go of it? The worst that could happen is the organizations would ascertain the feasibility and/or the success of such a venture, and if unsuccessful, could revert back to the former status.

Schuyler Lovestrand
 
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Hi Sidehill,

Maybe customs show should start making every attendee show their cash roll at the door. Keep the lookie-loo's out all together. But I guess that is what the Tactical Invitational is already doing, isn't it?
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Tactical Invitational: $150.

AKI: $100

Fisk Micro Show: $250 (with Jerry's show it's two days, you get fed and you get seminars and a lot of socializing.) As well you have the opportunity to purchase Knives from Jerry, another top ABS Mastersmith and Journeyman Smith.

To those who attend these shows it is worth every penny. The Tac Invitational and AKI obviously offer knives from some of the most sought after makers in the world. The entry fee is nothing compared to the premium that would be charged once the knife leaves the show....or maybe at the show. If you were drawn for one knife...it would easily be worth the entry fee.

They also offer food and drink as part of the entry fee.

I don't know if Josh Smiths show charges a large entry fee? But like Jerry's show he offers a lot for collectors.

Sidehill if other shows could charge those entry fee's they would.

The reality is that most shows are having difficulty getting people in for a reasonable sum. You could have gone online and printed out a free pass for the Guild Show. To be fair, the Guild passes for at least 20 years
 
skyman said:
Best idea I've heard in a long time. This is sorta like an on line "town hall" meeting.

Bruce's last post just about summarizes my thoughts on the bottom line:

1) Determine the best date, taking into consideration other large, successful shows.
2) Find the best venue (Atlanta Cobb Galleria)
3) Do it. (I don't want to get into too many details here, but listen to some the best minds in the
like Bruce, Les, etc.)

Someone should send a link of the recent discussions on this topic to all board members of both organizations. Some won't like it I'm sure, but if the memberships get behind it in force, they should be compelled to make a go of it? The worst that could happen is the organizations would ascertain the feasibility and/or the success of such a venture, and if unsuccessful, could revert back to the former status.

Schuyler Lovestrand
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Perhaps someone with industry horsepower could reach out to the Guild and ABS. Bruce?
I would like to hear AG's views on this as well.
 
Les, I guess there really is a sucker born every minute, but you won't see me at any of those "high roller" shows. Bet you don't see many guys that wear BDUs for a living at the Tactical Invitational do you?
 
Sidehill Gouger said:
Les, I guess there really is a sucker born every minute, but you won't see me at any of those "high roller" shows. Bet you don't see many guys that wear BDUs for a living at the Tactical Invitational do you?
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Sidehill, if you knew how much $$$$ some of the guys who attend these shows make from their collecting/investing of custom knives, you may change your mind regarding the "sucker" part. ;) :)

The AKI is $175 for a bidder and $150 for a non-bidding guest.
 
The bottom line is that I think combining the two shows is a tremendous idea, and would help to push both organizations into a higher level of prominence.

Maybe 40% possibility of happening and 90% guarantee of success(location and date being the MAJOR factors) , and I say January/February is as good a time as any, SHOT being not a highly complicated possible conflict.

I love threads like this, Bruce....they PROVE the power and legitimacy of online forums....you might not like what is being said, but cannot deny the impact of the words.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Sidehill,

There is a highly popular misconception that "Tactical" knives were somehow developed with the military and/or LEO's in mind.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

As an Infantry Officer in the 101st I saw no one else with a custom knife.

Most military and LEO's given the choice between spending $500 on a knife or something that goes "Bang". Will, almost without exception pick the thing that goes "bang".

It is not a lack of funds...it is a lack of interest in custom knives on their part.

I have mentioned time and time again that the word "Tactical" is a "Marketing" word and has nothing to do with the military.

So you are right, I can't remember seeing anyone wearing BDU's at the Invitationals. As well I suspect with worldwide commitments being what they are...they probably prefer spending time with their families when time permits.

I know that you are aware of the Interfame folders that swept the custom knife world 1988-1992. The collapse of this market, driven by the collapse of the Japanese stock market. Had a horrific affect on the custom knife market. The biggest affect was probably the fact that most of the "high dollar" collectors left.

It was the advent of the "tactical" folder that gave new life to the custom knife world. An affordable, every day carry knife that could be either used or collected.

This gave rise to a new collector base. Further, the makers who produced these knives sold/gave their designs to factories such as Kershaw, CRKT, Benchmade and Timberline to name a few. Who, in my opinion would not exist today if it were not for these makers.

The factories utilizing these makers in their advertising created a double edge sword. While using the makers names gave their branding legitimacy. At the same time it told the world who was responsible for these designs.

As these factory knife buyers got to the point where they had some disposable income, many sought out the actual makers of these knives.

This created even more collectors of the custom tactical knives.

To the point where, while many non-tactical folder makers keep trying to declare that market dead...in fact tactical folders are leading the way into the next decade.

As well the disappearance of the interframe also gave rise to that little school down in Old Washington Arkansas. Which is now a key player in the custom knife world.

As the world continues to find out that Loveless doesn't make his own knives, the posturing has begun to get those he "actually" made. And those he did not make are being sold or traded to fund those purchases.

That market is huge and always will be. However, as the price point for that market sky rockets...many will be looking for the next market to invest their money in.

I actually expect more "Invitationals" to start up.

Imagine the Slip Joint Knife Invitational! SJKI

Tony Bose
Reese Bose
Gene Shadley
Bill Rupple
Jerry Halfrich
Joel Chamblin
Rusty Preston
Terry Davis

and others that slip my mind right now. Make it a 10 - 12 man show....it would be a huge draw.

It is the collectors who attend these shows and pay the prices for these knives that help every maker out there.

As there really is a "trickle down" economic affect in the custom knife community.
 
Les, They have to call the genera something. If not "tactical", how about fighting, combat, survival, self-defense, or close-combat? But, please, not "sport utility." :) Any name would be called "marketing" by somebody.

As for the troops not carrying them, I did and I believe you said you did too. Hang out around the high speed units and you will see plenty of customs on the belts of guys that like knives. But I have noticed there far more legs that somehow think it just isn't fair they haven't been given an expensive custom as part of putting on a uniform.

Kevin, As far as I'm concerned, you are just proving my point.

Going back to the combined show idea, I'm for anything that makes the shows larger rather than smaller. The more there is to see, the more likely I'm am to travel to get there. I have a feeling there are plenty more people like me.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Perhaps someone with industry horsepower could reach out to the Guild and ABS. Bruce?
I would like to hear AG's views on this as well.
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It would take a pioneer to present this proposal to the respective boards.

You know how you tell the pioneers? They're the ones with the arrows in their backs.

I tried that pioneer stuff in years past. Content to sit inside the old Conestoga and pick off a few as they circle.
 
Question to both organizations:

DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A BETTER SHOW?

Notice I didn't say "bigger", "smaller", "more prestigous", "more inclusive", etc., just BETTER.

Now, you have to prioritize that question. How important is that issue? Who's interests do you have in mind? Then you have to decide:

DO YOU REALLY WANT A BETTER SHOW?


Well, if so, here is an avenue. (My opinion) (And a couple of other people's)

Schuyler

The world has changed from the "good ole' days", we must change our way of thinking to remain successful. Success is not about the end result, it is about the journey to get there.
 
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This is how I see it. I was involved in an organization that I had brought back from nothing. It was the hottest thing on the block because there were people looking to get involved with what I was doing. I was doing very well for probably the first five years and then others looked at what I was doing and were tired of flying out to my organizations functions and thought that they had gleaned enough info from what I was doing and decided that they would do what I was doing for themselves. They thought that they could do what I was doing bigger and better. They would come to my organizations meetings each year and recruit people to come to their meetings. Pretty soon there were several people trying to do what I was doing and there simply were not enough people to attend all of these organizations functions. Some of the organizations shut down and the others just got stagnant.

The number one problem was that there were not enough people interested in these organizations to sustain more than maybe two organizations. When I started, the pie was whole and it was huge. Then when others started to try to get their piece of the pie, the pie became much smaller for everyone. The fact is that until we get more people in these organizations, no one organization is going to be able to sustain itself and grow. Growth being the main thing that needs to happen.
You can take this same scenario that I just laid out and put the word SHOW in place of Organization and that is what we are looking at in the knife world. We need more customers to attend all of these shows or the shows that are going on now will continue to stagnate and some will probably be forced to shut down. I can think of a couple off the top of my head that have already bit the dust.

The knifemakers that are in demand are going to get stretched at some point and won't be able to attend all of these small boutique shows. We need to work on the education side and trying to bring in more collectors so that we have more customers walking through these shows and looking at all of these great knives that are being offered instead of trying to pull in the same collectors who are going after the same 10 makers.

The internet is still strong and powerful and will always be the preferred way to buy when trying to save money. I know for the average maker, when we had a good show, we could pay expenses and have plenty of money left over to pay bills when we go home. Now, everything is much higher and it is hard enough to make show expenses due to the rising cost of air fare, table fees, lodging and meals. ( Not to mention time away from the shop filling those internet orders) Now we are at a point where we have to be careful what shows we book. I love mini vacations, visiting old friends and making new ones, but if a show is not profitable, We simply can not keep taking a beating and we won’t be in business very long.
BB
 
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Can anyone tell me the specific reason that the ABS moved their show to San Antonio? There is the obvious historical/quasi-spiritual connection with Jim Bowie and the Alamo. I know from flying into San Antonio that time of year last summer that the major airlines have a pretty comprehensive schedule of flights going in there and the fares certainly seem to be cheaper than going into the Reno/lake Tahoe area at the height of the ski season. It is a nice town with a goodly amount of entertainment options, but it is hotter than blazes in August and still not exactly a major air transport hub.
The one problem that I see with January/February is that even though the ABS relinquished that time slot, you still have a couple of major shows in that part of the year, the Arkansas Show and the February New York show. If you have it any later, are you getting too close to Blade? That is why I suggested "splitting the difference" between when the ABS and Guild shows are being held now. The only large show that I know of that this would directly conflict with would be SICAC.
 
I'm not going to get in a tit for tat for a few reasons. One being I don't see the point in arguing with someone who has a true disdain for the organization. The sad thing is that Les has many good thoughts but his disdain for the organization, casts an annoying shadow over his posts.

I have plenty of bones to pick with the ABS but don't see the point in airing them here. In turn if I defend the ABS here I just look like a shill for the ABS. So instead I won't do either. I'll only comment on what I can control.

As a member of the ABS show committee I can tell you that we have already addressed the few concerns that came up this year. As with any show the first year is a learning experience. We have listened to our table holders and collectors and have already made the appropriate changes for 2010.

In regards to the original intent of this thread I can't see that show happening, whatever the reasons. Seems to me that Blade is the show your are discussing on steroids. Why have two Blade Shows and split the customers up more? If anything we need less shows.

Seems some are just taking advantage of this thread to bash the organizations which is unfortunate. I don't have the power to affect a decision on something like this either way. So instead I will put my efforts into my own business and the show I put on here.

Except for Blade I'm inclined to think that the large super shows are a thing of the past. It seems the small personal shows are the new thing. I think Blade will continue to be "the" one super show that will continue if for no other reason than their own marketing power.

If I were the ABS or Guild I would talk to the big wigs at Blade about controlling the tables in their own sections at Blade. In my opinion suppliers and non members should not be in those two sections. The Guild and ABS sections should be just that.

It's really sad that so many of these threads have to go straight in to the tank. It reflects poorly on our industry and drives away excited collectors. I say this because I've had collectors tell me this about the forums.
 
jdm61 said:
Can anyone tell me the specific reason that the ABS moved their show to San Antonio? There is the obvious historical/quasi-spiritual connection with Jim Bowie and the Alamo. I know from flying into San Antonio that time of year last summer that the major airlines have a pretty comprehensive schedule of flights going in there and the fares certainly seem to be cheaper than going into the Reno/lake Tahoe area at the height of the ski season. It is a nice town with a goodly amount of entertainment options, but it is hotter than blazes in August and still not exactly a major air transport hub.
The one problem that I see with January/February is that even though the ABS relinquished that time slot, you still have a couple of major shows in that part of the year, the Arkansas Show and the February New York show. If you have it any later, are you getting too close to Blade? That is why I suggested "splitting the difference" between when the ABS and Guild shows are being held now. The only large show that I know of that this would directly conflict with would be SICAC.
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You named most of the reasons. Alamo, easily accessible, town filled with attractions and things to do, center of the country, etc. Obviously its hot there in August and I'd like to see it in early Dec. for my own selfish reasons. Not sure if this would be a good move for everyone else or not.

Even though August is hot Reno in January is even worse. If you get there through the snow and fog the town itself is not enjoyable unless you gamble. Aside from the SCI show and gambling people really have nothing to do. At least in San Antonio you can walk the River walk, enjoy the malls, restaurant, Alamo, etc. My wife, daughter, and I did Sea World this year as well. I think the heat was mostly discounted due to everyone having A.C. anywhere you went.
 
joshsmith said:
I'm not going to get in a tit for tat for a few reasons. One being I don't see the point in arguing with someone who has a true disdain for the organization. The sad thing is that Les has many good thoughts but his disdain for the organization, casts an annoying shadow over his posts.

Josh,

Have you read the whole thread? Because I think you may be concentrating on a few sidebar discussions apart from the original intent to address possible solutions or improvements to a couple of the largest knifemaking organizations shows.

I have plenty of bones to pick with the ABS but don't see the point in airing them here. In turn if I defend the ABS here I just look like a shill for the ABS. So instead I won't do either. I'll only comment on what I can control.

As a member of the ABS show committee I can tell you that we have already addressed the few concerns that came up this year. As with any show the first year is a learning experience. We have listened to our table holders and collectors and have already made the appropriate changes for 2010.

In regards to the original intent of this thread I can't see that show happening, whatever the reasons. Seems to me that Blade is the show your are discussing on steroids. Why have two Blade Shows and split the customers up more? If anything we need less shows.

I don't quite follow your logic here. It would not be an industry type show like Blade, but a combined handmade knife show like the Guild Show and the ABS show. And two shows combined to one show = less shows, not more.

Seems some are just taking advantage of this thread to bash the organizations which is unfortunate. I don't have the power to affect a decision on something like this either way. So instead I will put my efforts into my own business and the show I put on here.

Likewise the intent of this thread is not to bash, but discuss a possible improvement for the benefit of makers and collectors. You can always be guaranteed a variety of responses in a public forum.

Except for Blade I'm inclined to think that the large super shows are a thing of the past. It seems the small personal shows are the new thing. I think Blade will continue to be "the" one super show that will continue if for no other reason than their own marketing power.

And some would be inclined to think small personal shows limit greatly the potential for makers and collectors both. There is nothing wrong with that format, however a very small segment of makers get sales opportunities or exposure, and few collectors make these venues. The vast majority of members of the knife organizations in question will never put on, or get invited to a personal show. The maker/promoter will do good because they are in that demand segment and they only include similar makers- therefore well-healed collectors will attend.

The knife organizations and their shows are what is needed by the rest of the makers and collectors both who aren't in the position to travel to several small shows and compete to spend a lot of money. And no new potential collectors or buyers of utility type knives would be brought into the market. They (makers) joined these organizations for a reason! And it wasn't to be told to go put on their own private show. Think "big picture" here and what's good for the future of the whole industry.

If I were the ABS or Guild I would talk to the big wigs at Blade about controlling the tables in their own sections at Blade. In my opinion suppliers and non members should not be in those two sections. The Guild and ABS sections should be just that.

It's really sad that so many of these threads have to go straight in to the tank. It reflects poorly on our industry and drives away excited collectors. I say this because I've had collectors tell me this about the forums.
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I don't think this thread has descended there (in the tank) yet. Opinions are good. Hopefully the personal sidebars can be limited in the interest of the intent of the thread.

Schuyler
 
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joshsmith said:
You named most of the reasons. Alamo, easily accessible, town filled with attractions and things to do, center of the country, etc. Obviously its hot there in August and I'd like to see it in early Dec. for my own selfish reasons. Not sure if this would be a good move for everyone else or not.

Even though August is hot Reno in January is even worse. If you get there through the snow and fog the town itself is not enjoyable unless you gamble. Aside from the SCI show and gambling people really have nothing to do. At least in San Antonio you can walk the River walk, enjoy the malls, restaurant, Alamo, etc. My wife, daughter, and I did Sea World this year as well. I think the heat was mostly discounted due to everyone having A.C. anywhere you went.
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I figured that the history of San Antonio might have been a deciding factor in putting the show there instead of say Dallas or Houston. Somebody told me that this year, you guys had the misfortune of beingthere during a humid spell, which is no fun.:eek::D When the humidity is closer to normal, at least you can go out a night and be comfortable. I know that lat summer/early fall is a VERY busy time for you, Josh what with you micro show. The pnly problem i see with that earlier date is that is runs up against the Arkansas show,which has apparently become very popular with a lot of he same guys who attend the ABS show. As folks have said in this thread, timing has become a big issue for shows because the calendar has become somewhat full of late.
 
Why this proposal and the discussion is just that...a discussion. And nothing will come of it:

1. Anything except praise is criticism and is dismissed.

2. Ego and turf.

3. Each side would have to give up a little. (see No. 2 above)

4. It makes sense.

5. For an idea to be communicated one person has to say it--and the other party has to be willing to hear it.

6. Knifemakers always know what is best for the handmade knife business. Collectors, editors, show promoters, suppliers, and dealers do not.

7. With a one year ahead outlook things look just fine thank you, no need to have a five year or three year plan.

8. The Blade Show is good enough for everyone, and we only need one of those a year. No need to clutter up the year with another great show.

9. Inertia is a hard thing to move.

10. All of the above combine to make the fundamental mindset held by a great number of those within the handmade knife industry that in my opinion needs to be stood on its head.

Of course I do have to admit that I am open to other opinions and subject to revise the above statements when I see they are wrong.
 
The more I read these competing threads, the more I can see why some collectors don't want to participate in the forum. This has nothing to do with knives and everything to do with people and business.

As a retired senior executive of a Fortune 100 company, I have seen meeting after meeting that have gone nowhere and accomplished nothing. Why? Not because of good suggestions, but because of personality conflicts and people who don't have the authority and balls to make decisions.

That's my two cents. That's all I am willing to spend on competing threads that go nowhere.
 
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